I call it like I see it, and it appears that that is what it was... Not sure what the difference is between here and Badweb, is one a higher form of forum than the other?... lolOriginally Posted by Diablo1
I made sure to read all of his posts before I passed any judgement... I'd prefer to have somebody tell me what is and what is not actually contribute more... but that's just me...
Yes, you're right. Badweb is a lower form of forum. It's because it's moderated by and populated with Buellaide drinkers. They don't allow criticism of anything Buell, even if it is truthful and well deserved. Badweb is like a religion or cult, and they banish folks for pointing out the Pope is fallible.
I expect the MSRP to be a good bit higher than 8K, but I was talking about what could make things work for the factory. If I were EBR, I'd be taking less on these bikes and allowing dealers to make more to get things back up and running (while making it clear that the price would go up on future bikes). But I would also work with dealers to try to prevent them from selling the bikes at much below the MSRP (or they'll depress the price going forward). If dealers can make nice cut on these initial bikes and EBR can make enough to keep the lights on, that could hopefully be the formula needed to get things going again.
On the topic of making money, I'm sure EBR put more in than they got out. But that's the way a business like this is. They've got to have a five year plan to ramp up and get to the point they'd be profitable. If Hero had stuck with them, I think they would have grown to a point that they would have been profitable.
. . . and I actually suspect Hero was smart enough to see that and got greedy.
From rumors and bits and pieces, it doesn't seem like Hero simply cut and ran (if you remember, Larry Pegram indicated that he was going to continue racing WSBK and Hero assured him they'd get past the "administrative issues"). I think Hero was pressuring Erik to sell - realizing how profitable the business could be in a few years - and he refused. They strong-armed him by refusing to pay to cover expenses and things blew up from there.
If Hero really decided they just didn't want to be a part of it any more, I think things could have gone much more smoothly. They could have created a plan that would have allowed them to remove themselves and walk away with a lot more money (while retaining the rights to their projects).
I think things happened the way they did because Hero believed in EBR and knew how profitable they would be in a few years - not the opposite.
As for Buell, if they never made money, it's likely because of creative accounting by Harley.
Last edited by Scott; 03-09-2016 at 02:58 PM.
Wow, I touched a nerve here. I feel like I'm on BadWeb. All things Buell are sacred and don't you dare cast a critical eye.
Never once have I wished EBR ill will. Never once have I called for their demise. Hell, I owned an 1125R and enjoyed it, when it was working. I've even defended that silly front brake, I thought it worked pretty well on the track for a solid B Group rider.
However, unlike the vast majority of Buell Fans I'm a realist. I also have over 15 years in manufacturing (semi-conductor capital equipment), have a very good understanding of GAAP, and I am a small business owner.
Again, given the situation, unless someone(s) have very deep pockets this venture will not become a self-licking ice cream cone. Manufacturing is incredibly capital intensive and the up front costs are insane.
The short term issue Buell has is they find themselves selling a 2014 product in 2016. The amount of change in the motorcycle industry over this period is staggering. EBR has not had the opportunity to conduct R&D and refresh the line during that time. Time marches on and waits for no one. Assembling the left over part sounds easy enough, but of the original 2014 are still on the showroom floor, how on earth will the new/old ones sell?
The long term issues are; can the build a solid dealer network? Can they refresh the bikes to compete with current offerings? Can they drive customers to the show room and turn that traffic into sales?
I stand by my statement that dollar-for-dollar, an EBR doesn't hold a candle to an Aprilia. The fit and finish simply isn't there yet. The plastic body work isn't as nice, the fasteners aren't as nice, the rearsets are odd, and the electronic package pales in comparison. Especially with the TV4 1100 refresh. It's an amazing motorcycle. That and people who don't know Buell find the whole bike rather odd. Remember, the bottomline is sales. It's great to hold to a vision, a purity if you will, but if no one will pay for it, what's the point?
Now, if dealers are willing to give away a new EBR for $9,999.99 that is a different story as they are simply cutting their losses and opening up floor space.
While new EBR bikes are coming off the manufacturing line, who are they going to? What dealers and customers are waiting with cash in hand to buy one? If I wanted to buy one where do I go?
Lastly on profitability, if they had high margin why have they been dumped repeatedly? If they were profitable they would not have been dumped. Really, it's that simple.
In closing I do hope the new and improved EBR can pull a rabbit out of their hat and succeed. The realist in me suspects they have a long and dumpy road in front of them at best.
Oh, and if you think I'm a troll, come visit the Aprilia political section...
They wear funny hats too...
What's with all the Badweb hate here? It is, after all, a Buell enthusiasts forum. If you're trying to keep a Buell running, there's not a better source of help out there. Yea, if you want to compare and contrast Buells to other bikes, you'll probably be happier somewhere else.
Back to EBR- you know, we've all been assuming they had a bunch of partially complete 2015's sitting at the factory, and that those were basically the same 2014 models with some very minor tweaks, and we're assuming these are the bikes that will start rolling out of the factory in a week.
It is possible that EBR had actually begun construction of 2016 models prior to the closure and that these bikes are "true" 2016 models. Maybe they actually have some real upgrades that haven't been revealed yet. Isn't ABS mandatory in Europe for the 2016 model year? EBR had a pretty big presence in Europe, so maybe the bikes include ABS. The addition of ABS, some tweaks to the fit and finish (I'm sure EBR wasn't oblivious to the cracking body work), and a slightly lower price might makes these bikes a LOT more competitive in the marketplace.
Last edited by Hughlysses; 03-10-2016 at 08:27 PM.
From Badweb:
In order not to speculate, then all questions can be asked Eric.
EBR 1190 RX
Personally I would not give you two cents for the Aprilia, while it is a great machine for me it is the most uncomfortable medieval torture device on two wheels.
I have put quit a few miles on one, and yes the engine is wonderful, but my EBR handles better and I can ride it for more than 20 minutes with out any pain or cramping. For me the Aprilia is ugly, I don't care for the transformer styling. Bottom line people buy what they like what is comfortable to them, for me the EBR is an incredible machine, I like the raw mechanical feeling the bike has.
Bad web is a really good site, can't imagine why they are so fiercely supportive of Buell and EBR products, that is a mind boggling conundrum! After all it is a Buell EBR site. We have a great variety in choices of what we can ride, imagine how boring it would be if they all were the same.
The press release from LAP last week stated:So, hopefully we will learn more today.Prices and other information are expected to be released next week.
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