EBR in World Superbike

[Scott]

I believe the penalty is to start 2 races from pit lane for each engine over 8. 2 races today takes care of Geoff's current penalty.

Good info. Here's hoping for some points next weekend.

I keep finding myself going through various stages. Every race weekend, I check the practice times hoping they'll manage some breakthrough only to be disappointed.

But just to be out there, racing against the best in the world is an accomplishment and the experience is invaluable. As long as thye have the will . . . and money to stick it out, I'm confident we'll eventually see them working their way through the field.

But sometimes it's hard to keep perspective, hope and optimism when they seem to be having so many problems.

[Hughlysses]

More interesting info- a couple of guys on Badweb claim a commentator during this weekend's race (on TV I guess) stated that EBR had tested with a conventional front twin disk braking setup, and averaged 3 seconds/lap faster, but they are not allowed to run this setup due to homologation issues. It'd be very interesting to know the validity of this claim. I think lots of people are too quick to blame the non-standard front brake for EBR's problems.

I could understand the ZTL setup losing performance over the course of an entire race (Geoff has previously mentioned pad wear being a problem) but it does seem the brakes should hold up at least long enough for fast lap or 2 during qualifying.

OTOH- if this is true, the engines are apparently a damn site better than their finishes this season would indicate. Another guy on Badweb says the German press says the engines have been essentially box-stock, shipped to the teams from the US and not modified at all (at least up until Geoff's modified engine this weekend).

[Scott]

More interesting info- a couple of guys on Badweb claim a commentator during this weekend's race (on TV I guess) stated that EBR had tested with a conventional front twin disk braking setup, and averaged 3 seconds/lap faster, but they are not allowed to run this setup due to homologation issues. It'd be very interesting to know the validity of this claim. I think lots of people are too quick to blame the non-standard front brake for EBR's problems.

I could understand the ZTL setup losing performance over the course of an entire race (Geoff has previously mentioned pad wear being a problem) but it does seem the brakes should hold up at least long enough for fast lap or 2 during qualifying.

OTOH- if this is true, the engines are apparently a damn site better than their finishes this season would indicate. Another guy on Badweb says the German press says the engines have been essentially box-stock, shipped to the teams from the US and not modified at all (at least up until Geoff's modified engine this weekend).

IF that's true, I'm sure we'll see changes. I'm not sure how the homologation rules work exactly in terms of 'race kits', but I would expect they will work to either modify it within the rules, develop some kind of 'race kit' or incorporate changes into next-year's model.

3 seconds is huge, so if there's a way they can pick that up, I'm sure they'll be doing what they can (of course it's very possible that a tiny measured difference became 3 seconds in the telling . . . or the information could be entirely erroneous). I would also be curious regarding the ability of the spokes to handle traditional brakes. Part of the theory is that the rim-mounted brake results in less force being transferred to the wheel and that allows a lighter wheel. Can that lighter wheel handle those forces or are they using a different wheel as well? (which might be a whole other homologation issue).

I would expect that the plan was to use this season to identify deficincies and it's very likely we could see a new model next year with modified components based on what they've learned ( a new, $28,000 RS perhaps? ). They are still a very small manufacturer, and I believe that allows them lower homologation limits ( has Bimota even sold 1 bike yet?).

[Scott]

If I read this right:

http://www.motomatters.com/news/2014...mbers_hal.html

It sounds like they could develop a 2015 1190RS, for example as long as they could sell 250 units in 2015 and 750 units in 2016.

And with Bimota likely lobbying to reduce those numbers, it could become even more manageable than that.

Considering what Dorna allowed Bimota to do to get them on the grid, I could imagine them shifting the rules specifically for small manufacturers to keep both EBR and Bimota on the grid.

[Hughlysses]

IF that's true, I'm sure we'll see changes. I'm not sure how the homologation rules work exactly in terms of 'race kits', but I would expect they will work to either modify it within the rules, develop some kind of 'race kit' or incorporate changes into next-year's model.
erhaps? ). They are still a very small manufacturer, and I believe that allows them lower homologation limits ( has Bimota even sold 1 bike yet?).

Further discussion about this on Badweb today. Apparently somebody posted info on the '3 seconds/lap improved time with "conventional" brakes' claim on EBR's FB page yesterday and EBR responded that the claim is BS.

Here's the exchange, as related on Badweb:
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Raz Man- Is it true that the WSBK team put regular rotors and brakes on and went 3 SECONDS per lap faster????

EBR- No, it is not true. Where in the world did that come from? BTW, there are no "regular" brakes on the other bikes on the WSBK grid. The trick stuff there is 10K Euros per bike!

Razz Man- Watch the Eurosport broadcast, one of the Brit announcers said it during the warmup lap for race 2.

And you know that I meant the not perimeter braking system lol!

EBR- Well the commentators completely made that up. In fact our system has been tested as superior against production level dual disc systems. However, there likely is an advantage to the mega buck WSBK systems. We may test a set of those, but haven't yet. Unfortunately were we to make an equivalently exotic ISO system, we could not run it, as brake systems have to be approved by WSBK before the season starts.

[Scott]

Further discussion about this on Badweb today. Apparently somebody posted info on the '3 seconds/lap improved time with "conventional" brakes' claim on EBR's FB page yesterday and EBR responded that the claim is BS.

Here's the exchange, as related on Badweb:
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Raz Man- Is it true that the WSBK team put regular rotors and brakes on and went 3 SECONDS per lap faster????

EBR- No, it is not true. Where in the world did that come from? BTW, there are no "regular" brakes on the other bikes on the WSBK grid. The trick stuff there is 10K Euros per bike!

Razz Man- Watch the Eurosport broadcast, one of the Brit announcers said it during the warmup lap for race 2.

And you know that I meant the not perimeter braking system lol!

EBR- Well the commentators completely made that up. In fact our system has been tested as superior against production level dual disc systems. However, there likely is an advantage to the mega buck WSBK systems. We may test a set of those, but haven't yet. Unfortunately were we to make an equivalently exotic ISO system, we could not run it, as brake systems have to be approved by WSBK before the season starts.

I've heard announcers say enough ignorant things about Buells/EBR's over the years that it doesn't surprise me - particularly since everyone assumes the brakes don't work.

And three seconds sounded crazy. Bottom line: No matter how much EBR may like the idea of their novel brake, if they have any real evidence a more traditional set-up will help them win races, I'm sure we'll see more conventional set-ups in the future.

[Doosh]

The brake is a compromise of factors like any technical decision would be. Among other technical issues, it trades an unsprung weight advantage for a heat handling disadvantage. On the street and at the club level, I think there's very few real disadvantages or advantages to it -- my 1190 brake system works more or less like the one on my GSXR-600, it just requires more frequent service (rotors and pads), but the wheel is noticeably lighter.

At the professional level, what are the requirements of those riders and tracks? That will dictate which system has the inherent advantage. To my knowledge, at the WSBK level most of the brake set-ups include additional material on the rotors over stock and additional heat handling measures in the calipers and pads. So, that would imply the EBR brake, with it's natural heat handling disadvantage (after all, it simply does weigh less), would be a challenge...

Perhaps EBR has some tricks up their sleeve to better handle the heat dissipation needs of riders at that level?

[Scott]

The brake is a compromise of factors like any technical decision would be. Among other technical issues, it trades an unsprung weight advantage for a heat handling disadvantage. On the street and at the club level, I think there's very few real disadvantages or advantages to it -- my 1190 brake system works more or less like the one on my GSXR-600, it just requires more frequent service (rotors and pads), but the wheel is noticeably lighter.

At the professional level, what are the requirements of those riders and tracks? That will dictate which system has the inherent advantage. To my knowledge, at the WSBK level most of the brake set-ups include additional material on the rotors over stock and additional heat handling measures in the calipers and pads. So, that would imply the EBR brake, with it's natural heat handling disadvantage (after all, it simply does weigh less), would be a challenge...

Perhaps EBR has some tricks up their sleeve to better handle the heat dissipation needs of riders at that level?

Very well said.

It is very complicated and the EBR brakes can probably be improved much more easily than the competition (which is already near the top of their game). None of us can really say which system - alone, with no other variables such power, torque, suspension, frame, wind resistance, rider, tires, team etc. - is superior.

It was intriguing to think that they had performed testing and seen a 3 second improvement - that kind of dramatic difference would be too much to ignore. But now that it seems that is BS, we're right back to where we started.

My general feeling (with very limited data) is that if this radically different system can simply survive in WSBK at this very early stage of development, it's worth some continued work to see if an improved system can be made to surpass the competition. But if I really had the data and numbers, I might look at it and say: "This will never work. It's too far off the mark." A true 3 second difference would probably be enough to make me say that.

[Doosh]

It is very complicated and the EBR brakes can probably be improved much more easily than the competition (which is already near the top of their game). None of us can really say which system - alone, with no other variables such power, torque, suspension, frame, wind resistance, rider, tires, team etc. - is superior.

Maybe.

I'm gonna go out on a limb and suggest if it were comprehensively better at the highest levels of competition we would have already seen a carbon/composite version of this brake in MotoGP. Perimeter rotor designs are not new -- I've seen dual-rotor versions of something substantially similar to the EBR brake on a Moto Guzzi from decades ago.

I do think you are right to suggest that the EBR brake design has lower-hanging fruit to find than the dual rotor systems, having enjoyed decades of significantly more investment than the EBR system.

But, that doesn't mean the EBR system will eclipse, or even equal such classic designs for competition.

On the street and for the mortals and terrestrials among us, I think it's been well demonstrated the EBR system works just fine.

[Hughlysses]

It was suggested on the thread at Badweb that braking problems could in fact be causing engine problems. If a rider reaches for a handful of brake at the end of the straight and doesn't have enough, it could cause him to overrev as he downshifts entering the turn, leading to broken springs/keepers, dropped valves, etc.

I strongly suspect that while we've seen negligible improvements in the WSBK's team's performances, EBR has been working on all this behind the scenes. Mark Miller raves about the performance and braking of the EBR 1190RS he road at Isle of Man last month (listen to audio interview I posted in another thread), and notes the braking performance was vastly superior to what he experienced on the EBR 1190RS he rode last year at Macau.

Last weekend Geoff was running an "improved" engine which they conserved for this weekend. Geoff posted to Facebook yesterday "This weekend will be interesting, one way or another. All or nothing. " Sounds like it won't be business as usual this weekend.