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Thread: EBR 1190 Adventure Tourer AX

  1. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hoak View Post
    Yes (sarcasm) lets have an expensive, and virtually impossible or impossibly expensive to repair frame that's easily damaged and totally obviates maintenance autonomy and serious adventure off-road riding where the bike will get dumped.
    Yea, we've all seen those hundreds of Ulys with ruined frames listed on ebay.

    Hoak, you don't want an ADV bike, you want a dual-sport with a heavy emphasis on dirt. EBR may stretch the envelope a bit as far as the market's definition of an ADV bike, but why the hell would they go so far away from the Uly, which was one of Buell's most popular models? It ain't gonna happen.

  2. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hughlysses View Post
    Hoak, you don't want an ADV bike, you want a dual-sport with a heavy emphasis on dirt.
    If you'd make some effort to read what I've written in just this thread you'd know your statement is emphatically false. As well there's no such thing as a 'dual-sport with a heavy emphasis on dirt' and even if there were and it was something I haven't yet owned or ridden (virtually impossible) -- it still wouldn't be what I want. Telling people what they want is such a bottom-of-the-barrel approach to informal fallacy I really didn't even want to dignify this with this much attention, oh well...

    Quote Originally Posted by Hughlysses View Post
    EBR may stretch the envelope a bit as far as the market's definition of an ADV bike, but why the hell would they go so far away from the Uly, which was one of Buell's most popular models?
    Your assumption that the preferences expressed here diverge 'so far from the Uly' isn't congruent with any fact, and no one but EBR knows what EBR's intentions are or will be for its AX/Adventure bike -- hence this forum, and free speech. The XB12X was based on an HD context, powerplant, licensure, manufacturing and premise. EBR is an independent company that can go any direction they please, including a serious approach to clean sheet ADV motorcycle design.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hughlysses View Post
    It ain't gonna happen.
    And you presume to know this by what means? Are you an EBR employee? What facts do you have to support your premise?

    There's far more working against another sport bike or bloated cruiser with ADV bike lipstick pretending to be anything but what it is (a paint job) as that market is saturated. And if there isn't any consideration and exploration of real ADV design for the AX this thread and discussion in entire is moot...
    Last edited by Hoak; 08-30-2014 at 02:44 PM.

  3. #53
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    Hoak- obviously all the statements I made are my opinion and no more likely to be accurate than anyone else's opinions here. From what I gather re-reading your posts you seem to want a sub-500cc dirt bike with some pavement capabilities. That doesn't seem to fit with the motorcycle industry's interpretation of an adventure motorcycle. EBR could dust off the plans for the stillborn 450cc Buell dirt-only motorcycle, make some minor changes, and I think they'd have a motorcycle very close to what you're asking for:

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    This image was reportedly a leaked rendition of the Buell design.

    I had forgotten about it until I searched for the info, but Erik Buell was actually quoted as saying EBR has an interest in bringing this design to production:

    EB – Special Rotax single cylinder engine of 450 cc. We are not looking to produce the lightest bike ever, but very light, but more reliable than competitors, which requires little maintenance and is very easy to start. It will have an aluminum frame that will also serve as the fuel tank and other attractions of the genre. At the time of Harley Davidson have spent years and many millions of dollars on this project, but then the manager decided it was not suitable for the Buell brand. We knew however that many dealers would have liked that there were also range in off-road motorcycles. The stop came in late 2006 and early 2007 and I think that that was the beginning of the end of the Buell.
    Link to full article (in Italian) here:

    http://www.motonline.com/prove/Articolo.cfm?Codice =283244
    Last edited by Hughlysses; 08-30-2014 at 04:19 PM.

  4. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hughlysses View Post
    From what I gather re-reading your posts you seem to want a sub-500cc dirt bike with some pavement capabilities.
    No, I used KTM's rally machine as a more apt illustration of form that follows function, and I've given far more attention to Carducci and Buell's XB12X in this thread then KTM's 450 rally toaster. The point made is that less weight, power:weight, lower CG, and reliability are vastly more important to real 'world crosser' ADV capability then gross power, quarter mile time on pavement, and road sofa feature float.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hughlysses View Post
    That doesn't seem to fit with the motorcycle industry's interpretation of an adventure motorcycle.
    Then 'the industry' has clearly failed with the lipstick on the cruiser and sport bike approach as they've created a saturated segment of bloat sofas on wheels have the highest ratio of buyer remorse and disappointment in the market, and the sales volume isn't going to this segment of the ADV market either.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hughlysses View Post
    EBR could dust off the plans for the stillborn 450cc Buell dirt-only motorcycle, make some minor changes, and I think they'd have a motorcycle very close to what you're asking for.
    No, this isn't what I've said, suggested or implied -- this wild interpretation is either you trolling and pushing your pet wish, some kind of misunderstanding or unwillingness to make that effort on your part. Neither are the design concepts of what make a good ADV machine exclusively mine, they're coveted by a very large and lucrative segment of the market that have no real modern dedicated machine that satisfies them, and usually end up building or re-building their own along the lines of what you see described and shown on the ADV Rider forums.

    Giving you the benefit of the doubt, again, here in bullet format is a conceptual summery of what's needed and coveted by riders like me:

    endurance
    economy
    fuel capacity
    low weight
    low center of gravity
    wheel size & geometry that emphasizes dynamic stability over turning performance
    long suspension travel
    simplicity that reinforces maintenance autonomy
    ruggedness that is both fall and fail safe

    These are concepts not concrete design absolutes that are prevailed upon by physics, materials science, and practical production costs that in turn confer form that follows function for the real world demands of a machine that can endure and manage around the world, all surface, inclement adventure riding -- and what most riders end up wanting or needing in bikes used this way generally equates to:

    wet weight under 400 pounds
    fuel capacity and economy to go at least 300 miles
    a center of gravity as low as all design considerations allow
    wire wheels with a 21 inch hoop up front
    at least ten inches of suspension travel loaded
    all foo-foo and farkels as options not mandated 'standard features'
    sub one liter displacement
    over engineering for frame and suspension stress
    wide ratio transmission

    The model for this has long been the open-class Paris Dakar Rally bike, which when it was allowed was (and remains) the fastest all-surface machines on the planet. What this translates to as far as concretes in the bikes ADV fans like me buy and build encompasses a wide range of approaches in method and execution like the Wunderlich BMW F800GS, to a lot of air-cooled BMW R80 derived boxers, HD Sportster's like Carducci, all sorts of rally kits selling in the tens of thousands for Dual Sport, Enduro, and Off Road Bikes, and even Works Rally Bikes consumers can buy.

    But since you keep trying to impeach the veracity and applicably of my preferences with your interpretation of what my dream ADV bike would be, and to get you to knock this sh*t off once and for all, here's one illustration of some high points of what could satisfy me and a considerable audience with similar expectations and goals:

    air-cooled low angle 700-800 cc parallel twin
    six speed WR transmission
    cradle and truss frame
    stressed modular bolt-on fuel nacelle*
    very fat large bore forks
    high breathing intake snorkels similar to Honda, KTM & BMW
    net suspension travel of 12"
    integrated frame mounts for all accessories
    rally furniture set for low wind drag coefficient at a very fast cruise
    weigh about 400 lbs wet (or less)
    range fully laden ~ 400 miles statute with rider and load
    power output would be 'sufficient'
    final drive would be Buell's constant tension belt


    *similar to Buell approach but is bolt on/off section of frame

    Lest you say it can't be done, it has; in fact nearly a decade ago, and it offered 0-60 times that would beat a Buell XB12X... As far as how this might look, the layout could be something like this (note the bike depicted is not a twin, and not air-cooled, it's a water cooled single):



    With modern Rally furniture layout similar to this (not this is not the same bike as the above, and is not a twin or air-cooled either):



    I'm not dead set on any of this, it's an illustration, an example, and if if Buell ended up with a short stroke low profile water cooled V engine like the Highland V-Twin or some derivative Rotax twin that would be fine too, or it would be really cool to see Rotax or some other power plant build their own modern flat twin air-cooled 'boxer' for all the advantages it has to offer this class of bike and the inefficiency it obviates when incorporating shaft final drive.

    Do I honestly imagine EBR will build such a bike? I haven't the faintest idea; it does however appear that the AX is still on the drawing board and in the planning phase, and there are a litany of reasons EBR might build a bike coveted by real adventure riders rather then a recapitulation of the XB12X, or worse a sport-bike with abject 'adventure' pretension. I'll reiterate those and pile them on in a later post..
    Last edited by Hoak; 08-31-2014 at 01:46 AM.

  5. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hoak View Post
    Lest you say it can't be done, it has; in fact nearly a decade ago, and it offered 0-60 times that would beat a Buell XB12X... As far as how this might look, the layout could be something like this (note the bike depicted is not a twin, and not air-cooled, it's a water cooled single):

    Actually, isn't that a far superior Parallel twin :) The XTZ750 (consumer model of this one) is actually on the list as a possible replacement if my F800GS craps out.

  6. #56
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    Hoak- I sense a needless amount of animosity in your replies; I was honestly just trying to understand what sort of motorcycle you were suggesting for a "true" ADV bike.

    I think it'd be wonderful if EBR designs and builds the bike you describe. OTOH, based on what I've seen on ADVrider and Badweb for the past ~6 years, there are a lot of current XB12X riders (including me) and other riders who've followed Buell and EBR's efforts that would like to see an updated rendition of the Ulysses using the ET-V2 engine or a variation of it.

    From what Dane Hoechst said in the interview I linked, the future of the AX is wide open, so we really don't have any idea which direction EBR is headed with the bike. Maybe we'll see what this new AX looks like at the AIMExpo this October, or maybe it'll be a year or two in the future.

  7. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hughlysses View Post
    Hoak- I sense a needless amount of animosity in your replies; I was honestly just trying to understand what sort of motorcycle you were suggesting for a "true" ADV bike.
    Animosity, none, warranted impatience, plenty; I think you may be projecting.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hughlysses View Post
    I think it'd be wonderful if EBR designs and builds the bike you describe. OTOH, based on what I've seen on ADVrider and Badweb for the past ~6 years, there are a lot of current XB12X riders (including me) and other riders who've followed Buell and EBR's efforts that would like to see an updated rendition of the Ulysses using the ET-V2 engine or a variation of it.
    I'm sure XB12X owners would, and well EBR might; and obviously I might even be interested in such a machine depending on what form it takes if it's as robust as the XB12X or better in that regard. But it seems unlikely if this is the approach that we're going to get a lighter, more reliable, efficient, affordable, and more versatile machine then the XB12X -- and I'd love to be proven wrong...

    Quote Originally Posted by Hughlysses View Post
    IFrom what Dane Hoechst said in the interview I linked, the future of the AX is wide open, so we really don't have any idea which direction EBR is headed with the bike. Maybe we'll see what this new AX looks like at the AIMExpo this October, or maybe it'll be a year or two in the future.
    It sounded to me more like they haven't even committed any resources to this project yet, and that it's still one for the tomorrow file.
    Last edited by Hoak; 09-01-2014 at 08:48 PM.

  8. #58
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    Interesting- the interview at Cycle World has been removed.

  9. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hughlysses View Post
    Interesting- the interview at Cycle World has been removed.
    Yeah I saw and wondered about that too. Just there's no hard feelings; we love the same things! I think the XB12X is a GREAT bike, I almost bought one. Mostly what stopped me was HD shutting down Buell; if Buell/HD was still intact I'd be an owner.

    What separates me from buying a used one today are the design compromises and focus of the bike is just too narrow; while the XB12X is 'dirt capable' it's not a real 'world crosser', and like many street oriented bikes of this ilk 'capability' is a very, very loose use of that word...

    For example: just riding the XB12X on unimproved dirt roads for thousands of miles, would be an unsafe, exhausting, miserable experience compared to say the KTM 1190 Adventure R. In fact to ride at the speed you could safely and comfortably traverse some of the rougher roads on a KTM, wouldn't even be possible on an XB12X.

    As well, that the KTM will also out-perform the XB12X on pavement should speak volumes to the design bias in terms of what really works and best that wears the meaning of the 'ADV' moniker.

    That said, I wish the KTM offered the XB12X's elegant simplicity, fuel economy, belt drive, quality, attention to detail, and magnificent work-horse engine; in fact that the KTM is a virtual space shuttle on two wheels in terms of feature float and complexity is turn-off as limiting as XB12X's street bias.
    Last edited by Hoak; 09-03-2014 at 09:02 PM.

  10. #60
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    The article's back up since last night, now with a couple of pics. No artists renditions of the upcoming AX unfortunately.

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