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Thread: EBR 1190 Adventure Tourer AX

  1. #31
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    That's a very practical, thoughtful, and well composed post -- and while it's difficult to tell what sort of reception it will receive here; I agree with, and like what you're saying. This reminds me of 'Trail' and 'Dual Sport' bikes when I was learning to ride that really were the 'do everything' work horses of commuting and adventure that were easy and inexpensive to maintain and fun to ride.

    Unfortunately I think you are right, and a lot of the newer generation ADV and ADV Touring bikes are disturbingly complex and fragile, as well as very costly to maintain, even more so if you ride them hard, or worse as is too often the case -- break through intended use. All of this lends to my sense that 'ADV' has become more of a marketing gimmick then any sort of serious design and engineering intention no less an exploration given to solving real problems.

    By way of illustration: while how much power we really need to have fun is obviously subjective and subject to how a machine is going to be used; the new Dakar Rally bikes are limited to 450cc, have to haul rider and an enormous payload of fuel over incredibly rough terrain and deep sand at speeds in excess of 115 mph, in an extremely hot and dirty environment, and do that all day long, for many days... Surely displacement and power output surpassing compact and even some mid-size sports cars is overkill that could be given some consideration in trade for economy and weight, or at least moving the weight LOWER on the machine...

    The low maintenance and simplicity the Buell XB12X offered with it's air-cooled engine, belt drive, impressive economy and self-adjusting valve train raised a lot of eye brows and made a very appealing approach to this genre that was well received and is again being pursued by the likes of Carducci


    But this is another set of compromises in heavy, top heavy, and narrower focus that will only appeal to a limited audience with in the ADV market.

    The important distinction I feel is often missed is that a bike that's engineered to take a lot of abuse that includes truly rough terrain, a dirty environment, deep water fording capability, that offers good handling characteristics under these conditions and some maintenance autonomy is usually well behaved on the road, can as needed do a decent job keeping up with similar power:weight street machines on their home turf (pavement), as well offer more stable forgiving geometry and handling that is often more important to the long haul and adventure prone Rider then how fast the bike drops into a corner.

    The converse however is virtually never the case: while a dedicated street machine certainly can be ridden off-road, or even on rough pavement; a little sand, water, or wet leaves can easily upset the all-in road machine with very unforgiving outcomes, or more typically catastrophic results -- and this is exactly what we see with most heavy ADV Touring machines.
    Last edited by Hoak; 10-13-2013 at 10:40 AM.

  2. #32
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    My thoughts go to:
    1. a kick starter
    2. a proper center stand
    3. under 400 pounds
    4. dual range output shaft for on and off road use
    5. 100 hp minimum, prefer knocking on 200s door for on road use
    6. needed within 3 years
    7. able to work with out the battery
    8. dream land specs.; multi-fuel, on-board generator, expandable luggage

  3. #33
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    Great post OurDee, and some of what you suggest is exactly what I'd like to see; some however is a bit contradictory, or at least across purposes...

    Here, point for point is what I think of your eight suggestions:

    Quote Originally Posted by OurDee View Post
    My thoughts go to:
    1. a kick starter
    Absolutely, there's both a substantial savings in weight and crud to support and maintain. As well any engine that can't be easily kick started is probably suffering onset of a poor maintenance regime or other issues you're much better of knowing BEFORE you take off on an 'adventure' that leaves you in the middle of nowhere with a bike you just stubbornly held a starter button on, and now has failed you entirely...

    Quote Originally Posted by OurDee View Post
    2. a proper center stand
    Yup.

    Quote Originally Posted by OurDee View Post
    3. under 400 pounds
    We agree again, I'd add WELL under 400 pounds WET...

    Quote Originally Posted by OurDee View Post
    4. dual range output shaft for on and off road use
    Here I have to disagree, a proper wide ratio, six speed transmission with sixth being a real over-drive or super cruise should cover all contingencies, with out added mechanical complexity, weight, power transmission loss, and reliability of jack-shafting a dual range output...

    Quote Originally Posted by OurDee View Post
    5. 100 hp minimum, prefer knocking on 200s door for on road use
    Disagree again, pushing power above, and especially substantially above 100 hp is going to increase weight, decrease economy (requiring a greater fuel payload), and make for an engine that not only impractical to kick start; if it's knocking on the door of 200 hp quite unsafe or impossible to do so.

    While throwing money at some of these across purpose design goals could obviate some of the problems; a better compromise is to accept the laws of physics, the limitations of metallurgy and modern materials -- and intend that the machine should be affordable to more then just five or six people on the planet.

    Keep in mind 60-70 hp pushes 450cc Dakar Rally bikes with nearly 400 lbs or rider and fuel at sustained speed over 100 mph over deep sand, all day long... Horsepower/weight, CG, and torque are much more important then absolute power...

    Quote Originally Posted by OurDee View Post
    6. needed within 3 years
    Yesterday would be better...

    Quote Originally Posted by OurDee View Post
    7. able to work with out the battery
    Indeed, most motorcycles that are kick started can function with no battery; and even be made legal in states that require the lights remain on for a set period in the event of engine failure with a battery eliminator.

    Quote Originally Posted by OurDee View Post
    8. dream land specs.; multi-fuel, on-board generator, expandable luggage
    Multi-Fuel is impractical unless a diesel stoichiometric engine platform is the starting point; on-board generator is already on most bikes, and as ours would be kick started it could be easily at little cost in weight or expense be made to offer more output; expandable (modular) luggage already exists -- so there are already some good design directions here being pursued that can be followed and improved in a more dedicated fashion.

    Cool input OurDee!
    Last edited by Hoak; 05-13-2014 at 10:02 PM.

  4. #34
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    Something I learned from my two road trips on my 1125R: It's really nice if you're not riding 2-up to be able to move the luggage down and forward to where the passenger would be. Makes that extra weight much less of an issue on ride, handling, and pre-load adjustment.

  5. #35
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    The previous 2 entries to this thread were made by complete goofballs. kickstarter.. lol what a joke, soon not even the japs will have kickstart on their mxers (look at KTMs biggest mx seller, 350sx-f or any Husqvarna enduro 4 stroke).. anyhow.

    Rationale brings the EBR 1190AX to the following:

    - 440-470 pounds dry *think more adventure than adventure touring*

    - 140 to 160hp *1190 detuned for torque/reliability/mpg*

    - Belt drive initially or 2nd year *taking advantage of R&D gathered from HD days provides the customer with lower long term maintenance cost and increased reliability over a chain drive while providing weight savings in simplicity, and a driveability better than drive-shaft equipped bikes.. but the time restraint may not be long enough to implement the design*

    -Optional "proper" center stand *optional keeps official weight down*

    - battery required at all times *mostly because this isn't scifi*

    -Additional fuel reservoir not seen on other models *allows for same frame as other models to keep production costs low by way of interchangeability throughout model range*

    - Provides better fuel mileage than RS/SX, and possibly optimized for 87 octane *regular* but definitely petrol only

    - heated grips initially or 2nd year *ala uly*

    - dc outlet for accessory electronics *ala uly*

    - ABS standard equipment *multiple levels & off*

    - expecting standard 19" front 17" rear, tubeless with 21" & 18" optional *non fully-spoked wheels due to ztl*

    - optional soft cases immediately available with hard cases also available initially or within 3 months of release

    - all out top speed may be intentionally hindered as priority is placed on low speed maneuverability *shorter rake means high speed headshake.. also, undoubtedly higher seat height compared to RX/SX*

    - standard 16,300 msrp with options up to 18,700

    There was some tech buried with the nearly mass produced HD-Buell dirtbike, maybe something we haven't seen yet will show up in this design, suspension maybe?.. The problem with the "Adventure" market is that it hasn't really been concretely defined, Erik has a chance to define it and gain a major foothold on this market. His biggest competitor being KTM and their 1190 adventure.. The Beemer is going to be a total pig compared to this bike but slightly more road worthy; while the Duc & Tiger will be lagging behind in all regards. It's exciting and I expect it to be revealed to the public in late October.

  6. #36
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    May be too late, actually I hope it's way late to make suggestions. But as a dedicated Buell owner since 96 S1 and dedicated uly adventurer since 06. I'm hoping that it comes in at 400 lbs, 19 front wheel, narrower rear 160 and an interrogated crash bar system so when the bike is on its side only the crash bars and pegs touch the ground. Oh and one more thing keep the seat height down to 32 inches. I would prefer to loose an inch of suspension travel in exchange for being able to get a foot down. I have had the privilege to tour on a KTM 990 and BMW GS. I will take my uly over those every time. These suggestions along with the updated engine would make the AX the perfect adventurer tourer... in my opinion

  7. #37
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    ok, so not even Japanese mxers will have kickstarters within just a few years (japs looking at ktms best sellers, 350sx-f & FE line of Husky) so why would a 1200cc road going bike have one ?

    Erik has said he has no plans for a touring or sport touring bike, so expect this to be 70% dirt 30% street

    - weight will be 430-480 dry

    - 17" front with 21" optional, non-fully spoked

    - 150-165 hp (focus on torque/mpg/reliability) *petrol only*

    - belt drive (reliability/low long term maintenance/low weight)

    - proper center stand option (options keep official specs down)

    - accessory dc power & heated grips (ala uly)

    - additional fuel reservoir (allow the use of same frame as rx/sx)
    Last edited by Raceya; 08-10-2014 at 07:15 PM.

  8. #38
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    whats wrong with this thing?

  9. #39
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    ok, so not even Japanese mxers will have kickstarters within just a few years (japs looking at ktms best sellers, 350sx-f & FE line of Husky) so why would a 1200cc road going bike have one ?


    - weight will be 430-480 dry *estimating 70% dirt 30% road*


    - 19" front with 21" optional, non-fully spoked


    - 150-165 hp (focus on torque/mpg/reliability) *petrol only*


    - belt drive (reliability/low long term maintenance/low weight)


    - proper center stand option (options keep official specs down)


    - accessory dc power & heated grips (ala uly)


    - additional fuel reservoir (allow the use of same frame as rx/sx)
    Last edited by Raceya; 08-10-2014 at 07:26 PM.

  10. #40
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    Several people asked the SC EBR dealer about the status of the AX at our Buell meet in Little Switzerland, NC last month. The dealer rep said that they understood the AX release was going to be delayed a bit from what was initially planned. I believe he estimated a late 2014/early 2015 release. According to him, EBR is currently directing their efforts at getting Hero bikes into the U.S.

    Can anyone from AF1 confirm or deny this?

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