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Thread: EBR 1190 Adventure Tourer AX

  1. #21
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    The Omega at Willow.

    The stator was the least of my worries, clutch slave X3, Speedo X2, boiling fuel, sending units, broken front brake bolts, etc, etc.

    Of the 18 months I owned mine is was in the shop for 10 of those months. I was only able to put 3,200 miles on the bike. And it was ridden hard. Not just the occasional track day.

  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hellgate View Post
    clutch slave X3
    Fixed with the new slave from EBR or Oberon. The real issue was the original piston would rub a rough spot on the slave cyl, and then guys would just replace the seals, but that wasn't the cause of the issue. The issue was that rough spot on the slave cyl cutting the seals on the piston.

    Polishing the slave cyl and piston with 1000 grit and keeping it well lubricated solved the problem. Or, of course, just using a better part. The Oberon uses a delrin cyl sleeve, EBR uses a stainless (hard) cyl. Harley's final answer was a hard anodized piston and slave cyl, and that also works.

    Speedo X2
    The sensor, or the cluster? I've noticed the clusters aren't so durable. I go through about one every season or so -- basically it just gets shaken into failure on our rough tracks. They are made by magneti marelli and aren't the most durable part, I agree.

    boiling fuel
    This is something the stock bikes are prone to. I don't have the issue on my DSB-spec bike. The cooling system is totally passive -- no fans.

    broken front brake bolts
    Now * THIS * is something I've never heard about. You are saying a front rotor mount bolt literally sheared off? Because, I don't believe it. Those are grade 10 (I think) bolts on the front, and they have an almost unimaginably high shear strength relative to what the rotor is likely to present even under extreme braking loads.

    Now, the drive bushings will wear, and they can wear quite incorrectly and cause issues, especially if you are using the OEM rotor mounting hardware, which more or less sucks across the board. That was fixed circa 2009 or so with the race mount kit, which holds the rotor close to the wheel instead of away from it.

    I run Ti rotor mount bolts and stock steel drive bushings. My bolts don't even really show wear (the drive bushings do, though), so I think something was wrong with the way yours was set up. Mind you, my rotor is every color possible, so I'm getting a LOT of heat into the system -- more than most.

    Of the 18 months I owned mine is was in the shop for 10 of those months. I was only able to put 3,200 miles on the bike. And it was ridden hard. Not just the occasional track day.
    $10 says a lot of the issues were the shop's knowledge and quality of work. That's arguably still Harley's fault, but I suspect if you had taken your bike to a decent mechanic the issues would have been fixed correctly the first time.
    Last edited by Doosh; 12-04-2012 at 08:19 AM. Reason: I'm a dumbass and can't type

  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by doosh View Post
    fixed with the new slave from ebr or oberon. The real issue was the original piston would rub a rough spot on the slave cyl, and then guys would just replace the seals, but that wasn't the cause of the issue. The issue was that rough spot on the slave cyl cutting the seals on the piston.

    Polishing the slave cyl and piston with 1000 grit and keeping it well lubricated solved the problem. Or, of course, just using a better part. The oberon uses a delrin cyl sleeve, ebr uses a stainless (hard) cyl. Harley's final answer was a hard anodized piston and slave cyl, and that also works.

    i'm glad to hear there is a fix. At 16 miles, yes, 16 miles my first on crapped out. In 2009 no one had a clue what to do.

    the sensor, or the cluster? I've noticed the clusters aren't so durable. I go through about one every season or so -- basically it just gets shaken into failure on our rough tracks. They are made by magneti marelli and aren't the most durable part, i agree.



    This is something the stock bikes are prone to. I don't have the issue on my dsb-spec bike. The cooling system is totally passive -- no fans.

    dsb bikes are passive? Mine had two fans and would piss fuel out the swingarm.




    now * this * is something i've never heard about. You are saying a front rotor mount bolt literally sheared off? Because, i don't believe it. Those are grade 10 (i think) bolts on the front, and they have an almost unimaginably high shear strength relative to what the rotor is likely to present even under extreme braking loads.

    yup. I'd post the repair receipt but i sold the bike back in '10 along with all of the docs.

    now, the drive bushings will wear, and they can wear quite incorrectly and cause issues, especially if you are using the oem rotor mounting hardware, which more or less sucks across the board. That was fixed circa 2009 or so with the race mount kit, which holds the rotor close to the wheel instead of away from it.

    I run ti rotor mount bolts and stock steel drive bushings. My bolts don't even really show wear (the drive bushings do, though), so i think something was wrong with the way yours was set up. Mind you, my rotor is every color possible, so i'm getting a lot of heat into the system -- more than most.



    $10 says a lot of the issues were the shop's knowledge and quality of work. That's arguably still harley's fault, but i suspect if you had taken your bike to a decent mechanic the issues would have been fixed correctly the first time.

    i went to two shops, the second cowboy hd was outstanding. Eric, had been to troy through all of the 1125r specific training. He would let me in the back of the shop and we'd trouble shoot together. On several occasions we called buell, "hd", and was told, and i quote, "your customer needs to simply by the full race ecu and the full exhaust. In other words, "we can do any more." i was finally told by the shop, "we had 21 1125rs here. I'm sorry we don't have a solution. I hate to say it but sell it." so did. I can't tell you the amount of time micah and i spent trying to get it to run right. I finally had to have a custom exhaust made and she ran great with a micah tune. Then the slave died again. I stripped her of my mods and sold her.
    five.

  4. #24
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    I was very excited to discover this forum and registered specifically for this thread and the bike it prospectively promises.

    I'd love to see Erik and his team turn their talent toward the development of an ADV motorcycle again -- but with focus given to a full-context dedicated ADV design rather then re-purposing a street bike...

    The XB12X (and now more so the EBR platform) is not really viable with respect to the challenge of a truly capable 'World Crosser' ADV machine as implied in the original topic, to wit there are 'deal breaking' limitations with respect to:

    · endurance
    · economy
    · fuel capacity
    · mass centralization getting priority treatment over low CG
    · turning performance given priority over stability
    · suspension travel
    · complexity
    · wheel size & geometry
    · load capacity
    · ruggedness
    · maintenance autonomy

    The XB12X was an exciting approach to this market and met some of these challenges with unique aplomb; for its displacement it was powerful, economical, low maintenance, handled better then most in the class on the paved and groomed surfaces -- but it really wasn't up to the chore of taking the kinds of sustained abuse dished out on difficult off-road terrain at speed with the handling requirements for same without exhausting the Rider -- especially over long distances.

    Of course it's my pet wish we'd see EBR turn their talent to really kicking the competition to the mat, something that could easily be accomplished following the very successful approach taken in large displacement V-Engine rally bike design -- like those raced from Paris to Dakar previous to the 450cc displacement limitation; these were and remain the fastest all-terrain machines on the planet; perhaps Buell could even employ one of the US Highland V-Twin Engines to that end...

    Love the thread, the man, the machines!
    Last edited by Hoak; 08-02-2013 at 08:33 PM.

  5. #25
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    Glad to see this thread spring back to life after so long. I am also really looking forward to the release of the AX. From what I've seen on the internet, it was originally intended that all three new EBR bikes (RX, SX, and AX) would be released at the same time. However, the latest info indicates only the RX will be released this fall, so I guess we'll have to wait until next year to see the AX.

    The current range of "heavy" ADV bikes available in the US includes the BMW GS, Triumph Tiger, KTM 1190, Suzuki V-Strom, Yamaha Super Tenere, and Ducati Multistrada (if I've missed any, please add them). Then there's a range of middle-weight ADV bikes as well. Each of these bikes has many design compromises regarding an array of goals, including pavement vs. dirt performance, fuel range, durability, weight, complexity, ease of service, etc.

    The only thing we really know about the AX so far is that it'll use the same 1190 EBR engine (EBR personnel have flatly stated the engine is now built by EBR and has no Rotax components) as the RX and SX. Given that EBR is a small company with limited resources, I imagine it will be much like the previous XB12X in that it'll share many components besides the engine with the RX and SX. That means the AX will likely have 17 inch wheels front and rear, and be towards the road-oriented end of the ADV bike spectrum. That suits my needs perfectly, although I'm sure there are plenty of people who'd prefer it to be closer to the KTM or BMW.

    I'm sure the EBR design team learned a lot of lessons with the Ulysses; it'll be interesting to see what new design features turn up in the AX.

  6. #26
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    I'd much prefer to discuss what the AX could or should be, rather then prognosticate what it might be based on history and assumptions -- and perhaps influence the outcome. There are plenty (too many imho) pavement biased compromise designs that will just make the AX another 'me too' bike to add to the clutter of the category.

    I'd like to see the EBR Team tackle a serious and studied approach to all-surface performance and endurance machine that at the very least meets the requirements of the mean ADV Rider. What this is not, and can not be:

    · scooter size front wheel
    · twitch sport bike geometry
    · fragile and expensive fuel reservoir frame
    · tall top heavy engines
    · suspension travel under 12 inches
    · water fording depth below ground clearance
    · enough brake swept area to stop a C130
    · a center of gravity in low earth orbit
    · any fragile critical parts what-so-ever
    · excessive power at the cost of economy
    · fuel capacity of a drag racing machine

    I suppose 'adventure' now-a-days can mean going on any paved groomed path not visited in the last 24 hours where cell phone connectivity with mom might be lost for a few minutes. That doesn't even begin to cut it for me; and while I grant I'm not an average rider; I'd say I have the kind and number of miles behind me, the experience, skill and some of this is what many ADV Riders covet or aspire to -- is part and parcel of what they seek in exploration and adventure and an ADV machine that will get them there (and hopefully back again).

    While an ADV bike is obviously going to have to make some compromises; one priced in the range where EBR might execute doesn't have to give up much -- a PD Rally machine could keep up with some of Erik's fastest road machines on pavement and be a lot safer and more forgiving; but even the most 'prepped' XB12X can't even go where a wallowing top heavy turd like a Triumph 800XC can go no less keep up with a dedicated ADV design like a PD Rally bike that will fly across unbelievable terrain at speeds over 140mph where you couldn't even take an XB12X at a tractor crawl in tow.
    Last edited by Hoak; 08-03-2013 at 08:57 PM.

  7. #27
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    Hoak- interesting commentary. I'm sure EBR could design and build one. It's a whole 'nother question if such a bike would be profitable for them. The only competition a bike like that would have might be the big KTM, but that would seem to be a pretty limited market segment.

    I've been very happy with the focus of the XB12X; ~90% paved and ~10% dirt. For all practical purposes it's a sport-tourer, except with fairly long travel suspension that provides a cushy ride and doesn't get disturbed by rough pavement in the twisties, and it can be dropped on a hard surface without destroying $500-$1k worth of plastic parts. I'll be very happy if the AX is designed similarly.

  8. #28
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    I don't think it's logical to expect that a company as tiny as EBR would make a complete clean-sheet world-beating adventure bike that appeals to the hardest of hard-core any time soon. But I think it is logical to expect an updated, improved variation of the Ulysses based on the 1190. In the coming years, I'd expect that model to evolve and improve and become more of a stand-alone model that appeals to people who want to beat the snot out of it (and it's likely they will be selling that bike alongside a dirt-bike as well). But, come on, this is a company that has made a little over 100 bikes. They have limited resources and they need to share components until they can grow into a larger company. Let's not expect the moon and the stars from them.

  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hughlysses View Post
    Hoak- interesting commentary. I'm sure EBR could design and build one. It's a whole 'nother question if such a bike would be profitable for them.
    I'm fairly sure they could too; but with respect to profitability, an honest objective look at the best selling and highest margin bike in this segment is rather telling: the BMW F800GS, with second place going to the Triumph 800XC... And not by a small margin; these bikes that are functional clones that are selling more than all other 'ADV' bikes combined... Something to at least explore, understand and consider?

    Quote Originally Posted by Hughlysses View Post
    The only competition a bike like that would have might be the big KTM, but that would seem to be a pretty limited market segment.
    The 'Big KTM' is definitely not a bike that is competition for what I have in mind or would ever want. At over a quarter ton, with traction control, drive-by-wire throttle, ABS, cigarette lighter, AC, more plastic then the Mattel Toy company, and less then eight inches of suspension travel to suspend all that weight, ridiculous horsepower and butt load of foo-foo features makes the KTM 1190 ADVENTURE R about as effective an ADV bike as a fifteen year old dairy cow would make an effective steeplechase horse. You can ride or even race 60's Cafe Racer on an MX track and call it a MX bike; that doesn't make it one by any reasonable or objective estimation.

    While the concept of 'Adventure' may be substantially subjective:

    ad·ven·ture noun \əd-ˈven-chər\

    Definition of ADVENTURE

    1 a : an undertaking usually involving danger and unknown risks
    _ b : the encountering of risks <the spirit of adventure>

    2 : an exciting or remarkable experience <an adventure in exotic dining>

    I find what's implied in the Wikipedia entry for Adventure more qualifying with respect to the design considerations being discussed here. So, for me the premise of 'Adventure' in a motorcycle's designation places some objective prerequisites on a motorcycle's design to consider it an 'Adventure' bike rather then just another load of marketing bullsh*t.

    By way of illustration: would you take a KTM 1190 ADVENTURE R on a risky enterprise, with uncertain outcome, to locations unknown and unexplored, where the autonomy and capability of said machine would be instrumental and decisive to the outcome of said enterprise? I don't know about you, but if the adventure included substantial off-road travel, or even travel a substantial distance from a KTM dealer it would be near the bottom of, if not last on my list. And while KTM does make a bike that is more suited...

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	KTM 450 Rally 11.jpg 
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    $40k is a bit high for what's offered...

    Quote Originally Posted by Hughlysses View Post
    I've been very happy with the focus of the XB12X; ~90% paved and ~10% dirt. For all practical purposes it's a sport-tourer, except with fairly long travel suspension that provides a cushy ride and doesn't get disturbed by rough pavement in the twisties, and it can be dropped on a hard surface without destroying $500-$1k worth of plastic parts. I'll be very happy if the AX is designed similarly.
    And well you and others might be; though if it's based (even loosely) on the 1190RS it is going to have a long way to go to even be competitive with the XB12X in any context of 'Adventure' that exceeds a race to the gas station, the next stop light, or the nearest mechanic.

    Quote Originally Posted by Scott View Post
    I don't think it's logical to expect that a company as tiny as EBR would make a complete clean-sheet world-beating adventure bike that appeals to the hardest of hard-core any time soon.
    I never said, suggested, or implied I 'expect' EBR to do anything, no less what you're assuming; though they are in an excellent position to do exactly this. Neither did I use language that suggested or implied 'clean-sheet and world-beating that appeals to the hardest of hard-core' -- though, again EBR is definitely a company in a unique position to do exactly that, better then anyone, because that's exactly what they already do.

    Quote Originally Posted by Scott View Post
    But I think it is logical to expect an updated, improved variation of the Ulysses based on the 1190. In the coming years, I'd expect that model to evolve and improve and become more of a stand-alone model that appeals to people who want to beat the snot out of it (and it's likely they will be selling that bike alongside a dirt-bike as well). But, come on, this is a company that has made a little over 100 bikes. They have limited resources and they need to share components until they can grow into a larger company. Let's not expect the moon and the stars from them.
    There are a lot of assumptions here that simply don't apply to the economics of running a business that's building motorcycles. Limited resources doesn't mean you 'need to share components' to save money, 'resources' or cut corners to execute successfully. There are more then enough components for this industry that are made by dedicated companies where scaling building the best most economical or highest performance part is their primary aim: engines, ignition systems, throttle bodies, carburetors, plastics, suspension components, and brakes being just a few of the most obvious.

    Neither does a real ADV bike have to go to the wall to beat the snot out of the competition, the competition is heavily comprised, and the market segment I'm a proponent of is the most lucrative...
    Last edited by Hoak; 09-28-2014 at 12:12 PM.

  10. #30
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    Even though i live in an area quite far from any offroading i would
    love to see a low maintenance dirt oriented bike rather than just yet
    another heavy N-cylinder adventure bike. Offroad bikes they generally
    are not. Figuring EBR might want to go into this territory rather than
    make a true round the world offroad bike I am hoping that this EBR
    bike will have large intervals for maintenance and thus the added
    convenience of being able to use the bike for traveling. This would
    mean not having major service within 3 months (6 000 miles) after each
    other because just just did a strait line across Europe on road, not
    eating chains in 12 000 miles and not eating headset bearings every 6
    000 miles.
    Any mild offroading on these bikes takes its toll, bikes will lose
    their value nearly instantly, especially with the superior German
    engineering of my bike where you bend shock bolts and sub-frames if
    your not careful, scratch up road plastic, break fuel tanks, etc, etc.
    I am guessing this is the same for KTM's heavy bikes.

    If you are on a holiday or trip across Europe you would avoid highways
    like the plague. Now what i figured for traveling anything other than
    highway you do not need the amount of power of a large volume engine,
    as long as the bike is light and the layout is well though out. Even
    for travel a comfortable speed of 60 mph is good enough. Sure more
    power is nice for overtaking but its not necessary, speed limits on
    most non highway roads are never more than 60 mph, and on these roads
    you will get your best MPG value's as well.

    As for bike layout, please get the weight down low as possible. One
    good thing of my Bavarian pig, also makes an low power bike usable.

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