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Thread: Cooter tests Red and Yellow rear coils.

  1. #11
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    Not sure where you got a 2% difference Cooter. Its almost 5% bigger diameter but that translates to almost 10% bigger cross section area which is what you need to consider for comparing the strength of one to another.

    Why are you so focused on the spring for riding comfort or stiffness as you call it? Have you measured the amount of rear sag you have? You should be in the 20-25mm range. What have you done with the compression clickers? They will have a much bigger impact on dynamic stiffness. I cant believe that EBR got it that wrong on spring rate especially since I am just over the 200lb mark as well.

    from the owners manual
    "Ride Quality Enhancement1. The stock settings are designed to offer sufficientchassis control, but some may choose to enhance ridecomfort over rougher road conditions or for long rides.Reducing the compression damping will allow the suspensionto move more freely reducing road input to the rider. Adjust suspension for rider weight. See OPERATINGRECOMMENDATIONS, Suggested Suspension Settings, Table17, as the starting point.2. Increase ride quality by reducing front and rearcompression damping by turning adjuster counterclockwisefrom 1/2 to 1 1/2 turns.3. If additional ride quality is desired, reduce frontpreload by turning adjuster counterclockwise one turn.4. If maximum ride quality is desired, decrease frontrebound damping 1 turn and rear rebound by ½ turn."

  2. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by konarider94 View Post
    Not sure where you got a 2% difference Cooter. Its almost 5% bigger diameter but that translates to almost 10% bigger cross section area which is what you need to consider for comparing the strength of one to another
    Ya beat me too it. Here's the math I used originally.

    The wire diameters are .424 & .444
    I got 4.7% for the difference
    .424 x 1.047 = .4439


    2% would only be .424 x 1.02 = .432


    But for comparison I used the cross sectional area of the wire as mentioned...not diameter.
    P x R2
    3.14 x .212 x .212 = .141
    3.14 x .222 x .222 = .158
    I said about 10% thicker (in terms of mass) for the estimate.
    Didn't think I was gonna get called on it...should have said 12%
    .141 x 1.12 = .1579


    I was focusing on the measurements in the pics but I just realized the spring tested was not the same red spring in the first 2 images. I thought the shock was taken from the bike and the spring was removed from the shock so it could be tested.

    The red spring in the first 2 was progressive. Coil bind is by design but it's not a problem because it only happens one at a time.

    The 2 tested appear to be linear. 12% increase in mass doesn't explain the weight difference though. The only way the red spring could weigh that much more is if it had more coils. 6 coils should weigh 20% more than 5. That also would explain why the red spring is softer rate wise.
    Last edited by Brian S; 07-26-2018 at 12:46 PM.

  3. #13
    EBRforum Expert Cooter's Avatar
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    Kona, don't forget that setting up motorcycle suspension for the load being carried is only the starting point. Most people stop there, but there are a multitude of factors that dictate shock damping, including personal preference. I have been unable to adjust the rear of the bike to my liking with the speeds and the roads that I travel. i.e. With the rear preload low and the shock as compliant as I can make it the rear still skips over imperfections in a corner and oversteers. I have tried stiffer settings as well. I have new Q3+ on it. I have adjusted the front and rear almost weekly for 6000 miles and have concluded I want a lighter spring rate. Then I can begin to adjust the rear shock back to mid settings instead of compensating for what I believe is a coil stiffer than I like. Not to mention the kidney killing freeway expansion joints. I should be able to drop compression and raise rebound to smooth that out but no joy:(

    Brian S: 2%-4.7% whatever, Thanks for the math, but we aren't calculating coil rate here, we have that already so it's a pointless... point? haha. I measured the wire diameter as accurately as I could but did not do it correct enough to argue percentages. Coil wire is not even round (a by product of making a coil) so I would need to measure its oval-ish shape and average it. I also did not take into account the possible powerdercoating thickness difference between the two coils. There are only 2 coils. I only had one red and one yellow coil. Perhaps the pic is upside down? I wouldn't throw a 3rd leg into this (poorly done) experiment.

    I like this! I'll geek out on suspension all day, thank guys

  4. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cooter View Post
    it's a pointless... point? haha.
    moot point

    I'm finding all this interesting. I want a yellow spring for the color, but like the softness of the red.

  5. #15
    EBRforum Junkie MakingPAIN's Avatar
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    Paint yours red lol...

    hey cooter what are you running for setting on the red spring?? I can’t remember mine off the top of my head but I have mine pretty close to a comfortable setting for road use. you may ride harder than me. And we have a lot less curves to carve in AZ than Cali. I am 165 lbs soaking wet haha so mine may be way different than yours to start with

    you seem into suspension set ups and would like your opinion if anything at all. Thanks in advance if you post back.

    Why?because I just wing it and hope I feel it getting better under my butt.

  6. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by LeesEBR View Post
    I'm finding all this interesting. I want a yellow spring for the color, but like the softness of the red.
    I'm glad you chimed in because I read your thread about lowering the bike. I want to do the same and didn't think anyone reached a conclusion yet.

    In my first post I said 10% and was told I'm wrong. 4.7% is only half of the calculation. Konarider94 said 10% as well. I showed the work so forum readers understand we didn't pull the numbers out of thin air. If the math is wrong I want someone to correct me.

    Cooter, could you double check the free height of the yellow spring? It may be a bit longer than 6.4".
    Last edited by Brian S; 07-27-2018 at 02:49 PM.

  7. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brian S View Post


    In my first post I said 10% and was told I'm wrong. 4.7% is only half of the calculation. Konarider94 said 10% as well. I showed the work so forum readers understand we didn't pull the numbers out of thin air. If the math is wrong I want someone to correct me.
    The larger area is 0.1548 so I think you missed a digit when rounding. Should be .155 and you get a 9.7% larger area. I was going to let it go but you literally asked.

  8. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by konarider94 View Post
    The larger area is 0.1548 so I think you missed a digit when rounding. Should be .155 and you get a 9.7% larger area. I was going to let it go but you literally asked.
    Thanks, I may have done it correctly the first time a few days ago but didn't write anything down because like I said....didn't think I was going to get called out on it. My concern about the red spring is the free length. The range of the stock shock is between 6.125 and 6.5 if I measured accurately. The scale shows the red to be a bit softer but if the free length is 7.25, wouldn't that add a lot more pre-load than a shorter spring? It feels like we're comparing apples to bananas here if we don't take the installed height into consideration. I have some general knowledge about the automotive industry but haven't worked on bikes very much.
    Last edited by Brian S; 07-28-2018 at 07:18 PM.

  9. #19
    EBRforum Expert Cooter's Avatar
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    Motorcycle and car springs work the same:). But decimals aside (.3%? really?), we have the answer already, as tested. No need to calculate anything.

    With no pre-load adjustment, the sag height of the rear with either coil installed... Is the same (I don't have a laser....) If you want to lower the bike, that is an entirely different (and huge) can of worms. Miniscually lower free height with a barely measurable increase in spring rate aside, they are virtually identical. I firmly believe MFG tolerance could be the reason for the small measurement differences.

  10. #20
    EBRforum Expert Cooter's Avatar
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    Hey Pain, I'll check my chart when I get home and let you know. My short-term memory is wack

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