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noone1569
01-29-2016, 11:16 AM
Just received this via e-mail from LAP:

Kickstand Up, Ready to Roll...


EAST TROY, WI – EBR Motorcycles has recently completed the protracted Wisconsin Chapter 128 business restructuring that began last April. The EBR 2012 – 2015 model parts inventory, brand name, trademarks, patents, operating licenses, testing equipment, assembly lines and all the future models under development are now owned by Liquid Asset Partners of Grand Rapids Michigan.

Liquid Asset Partners is actively reviewing options for a qualified individual or company to acquire or finance the motorcycle business and take it to the next level.

Erik Buell, founder of EBR, said, “This is indeed an incredible opportunity for a huge head start on getting an American sport motorcycle business going. I have to thank Bill Melvin Jr., Bill Sr., and the team at Liquid Asset Partners for seeing this and working toward activating the assets and building motorcycles again. It is also great that they have stepped up to immediately address parts availability for EBR owners. The old company had many of the pieces in place for success, and I am very energized by the opportunity to re-engage under a new corporation with the right ownership and focus.”

Kim Tordik, key management member, has worked side-by-side with Erik for over 30 years. Kim started with Erik in the early years of the fledgling Buell Motor Company, continued through the Harley years and on to the start-up of Erik Buell Racing. “I have seen and been a part of all the challenges and successes over the years. Working with Erik, we have always focused on keeping the customer first and top-of-mind. The amount of energy and enthusiasm for Erik Buell and his legacy brand is as prevalent now as ever. Knowing personally the extraordinary assets that are available and the creative talent we have, the best years are still ahead.”

The first step, beginning next week, will be to make service and repair parts available directly from Liquid Asset to the owners of the EBR RS, RX and SX models, as well as performance parts for previous Buell models that had been available from EBR. Since the motorcycle selling season is approaching quickly, management is making significant progress towards plans for the production of new RX and SX models. The goal is to have 2016 model EBRs rolling by mid-March.

Steve Smith, key management member, says “the ‘muzzle is off’ and that it is time to reach out to EBR suppliers, dealers, customers and fans around the world. During the restructuring process it was inappropriate for the staff to talk about the specifics. Not being able to speak up was very frustrating, as there was no shortage of false information and speculation being spread. The “Buell Nation” and EBR enthusiasts were inundated with all sorts of opinions and misleading stories over the last 9-10 months. With Liquid Asset now in control of the motorcycle assets and intellectual property, we are in a position to begin the process of restarting. We love and appreciate the continued enthusiasm of the EBR riders groups; to help with the future success of EBR, we encourage riders and enthusiasts to talk to their closest dealer and prepare their personal finances for hopefully buying a 2016 model EBR.”

Once the plans are implemented, the path is open for the next step of growth. The American innovation, speed and persistence of Buell and EBR that have been demonstrated and appreciated by hundreds of thousands the world over will still require significant resources to move to the next chapter. Liquid Asset has taken on the mantle of “brand steward” and is committed to preserving the true American Sportbike company with its lineage going back to 1983. Along with production initiating on RX and SX, new segment busting models that deliver Erik’s unique vision are on the drawing board. The new company has many assets and is ready to expand rapidly.

Anyone interested in more information about the EBR opportunity should contact Liquid Asset Partners at www.LiquidAP.com (http://www.liquidap.com/).

Anyone interested in EBR parts should visit www.LiquidAP.com/EBRparts/ (http://www.liquidap.com/EBRparts/)

Thank you,
Team EBR

zviadi
01-29-2016, 01:38 PM
Good sound!

Scott
01-29-2016, 02:34 PM
Wow! Very interesting. Liquid Assets has hinted all along that they could finance. I wonder if their idea is to put minimal investment into them to get them up and running and demonstrate how they really are a functional company and then flip them.

Street Bastard
01-29-2016, 06:35 PM
No mystical greek, no Bruce who?
Erik is back on board.

YESSS!

Doug Porcaro
01-31-2016, 06:25 PM
No mystical greek, no Bruce who?
Erik is back on board.

YESSS!

Haha!

Hellgate
01-31-2016, 08:17 PM
I'm not holding my breath. This is still a LONG ways off boys...

Scott
02-01-2016, 08:34 AM
I'm not holding my breath. This is still a LONG ways off boys...

I agree, but I think the company is in better shape than it has been for the past 9 months.

It is still, and always has been about money. Somebody needs to step in with enough cash that they can convince suppliers, dealers and customers that they will invest to keep the company running for 5 years - after which it will be strong enough to stand on its own.

We have known since the first auction that nobody has yet been willing to step forward with a wad of cash, but we do know there were entities interested (such as US GP Holdings, S & S and Zero). If Liquid Assets has the money and is willing to invest it to keep some key people on who can organize things so the company is ready to go as soon as they have the funding and if Liquid Assets is actively out publicizing and looking for that buyer or buyers (with Erik Buell helping and making phone calls), I think someone will take a shot at owning the only American Sport-bike company - one that has a small but passionate group of current fans.

Right now, I suspect Liquid Assets is putting together a slick report that will demonstrate the operating costs and revenue that the company would expect selling 300 bikes per year, and then they can project out how those numbers will shift and become profitable under reasonable growth expectations. Prior to Liquid Assets purchase, nobody could really organize or present the company in a way that illustrated its potential. It was just a pile of machines, computers and vague intellectual property that required potential buyers to use quite a bit of imagination and take quite a bit of risk if they were even thinking about leaping in. Liquid Assets can collect and organize the components to tell a much more clear story of where things could go.

I don't know who the new owner will be or how similar the new company will or won't be to what we know, but I think, in time, it will happen.

Hughlysses
02-02-2016, 06:50 AM
New article at the Milwaukee Journal Sentinel:

http://www.jsonline.com/business/erik-buell-racing -hopes-to-restart-motorcycle-production-in-march-b 99662505z1-367281991.html (http://www.jsonline.com/business/erik-buell-racing-hopes-to-restart-motorcycle-production-in-march-b99662505z1-367281991.html?ipad=y)

This says they expect to restart production on a small scale in March before they find a buyer for the company.

Scott
02-02-2016, 10:36 AM
This says they expect to restart production on a small scale in March before they find a buyer for the company.

I found that very interesting. The previous release seemed to imply that they could be up and running by March, but this seems to imply that LAP will have them up and running by March while they continue to look for investors.

I think that makes a lot of sense if they have the pieces they need to make it happen.

Doug Porcaro
02-02-2016, 11:03 AM
I'd say that's good news. I can't imagine they won't find investors or a buyer. These are the most practically unique and beautiful bikes in the world and they can make power and handle on a world class level. With a good plan, sufficient marketing, and targeting the right customers here and overseas, I don't see why a team of reasonably competent people couldn't sustain a prosperous business. Plus, regardless of what politicians and big corporations say, exports i.e. bringing back leaving/left money is the best thing for our economy and our survival. Stupid mindless phone apps are not enough, lets sell something real!

Scott
02-02-2016, 11:50 AM
I'd say that's good news. I can't imagine they won't find investors or a buyer. These are the most practically unique and beautiful bikes in the world and they can make power and handle on a world class level. With a good plan, sufficient marketing, and targeting the right customers here and overseas, I don't see why a team of reasonably competent people couldn't sustain a prosperous business. Plus, regardless of what politicians and big corporations say, exports i.e. bringing back leaving/left money is the best thing for our economy and our survival. Stupid mindless phone apps are not enough, lets sell something real!

Yeah, and after the Chinese racing championship, I'd bet they could sell a few bikes there. I think the only thing standing between them and success is having someone willing to write the checks until the business can stand on its own.

I'll keep buying those lottery tickets.

Scott
02-26-2016, 01:56 PM
EBR just posted on their Facebook page that big news is coming next week.:bannana:

Hughlysses
02-26-2016, 02:17 PM
^ I saw that. :thumb:

Scott
02-26-2016, 02:21 PM
^ I saw that. :thumb:

I hope I'm not reading too much into it. It could just be: "New bikes will be rolling off the line March XX." . . . which would be cool, but they've already said they were doing that, so I wouldn't consider that BIG.

I certainly hope it means someone with the money and brains to keep the company running until they're on solid ground will be buying them . . . but I'm afraid it might be something short of that.

Hughlysses
02-26-2016, 02:46 PM
The quote was actually "BIG news...". Hopefully they're not BS'ing us.

A little info is trickling out on Badweb. One dealer posted this morning that he had spoken with someone in the know and that he confirmed that production of new 2016 model motorcycles WILL begin next month. These will be RX's and SX's with no significant changes except for "bold new colors".

Scott
02-26-2016, 03:05 PM
The quote was actually "BIG news...". Hopefully they're not BS'ing us.

A little info is trickling out on Badweb. One dealer posted this morning that he had spoken with someone in the know and that he confirmed that production of new 2016 model motorcycles WILL begin next month. These will be RX's and SX's with no significant changes except for "bold new colors".

:thumb:

While normally I'd be disappointed with "bold new colors" in this case it means the parts going on those bikes will match the parts on our bikes. So my biggest fear since the beginning of this, long-term parts supply, may not be an issue if they can keep things going.

I've been thinking about the news. On one hand, if they will be making bikes soon, we would expect them to try to make a big deal of it to get interest going and sell those bikes, so that could be all it is . . . BUT there's a unique situation here. LAP (which is the current owner and presumably has control of information such as that posted on Facebook) has one primary objective and that is to sell the company, not bikes. Hinting in a way that would lead most people to believe there is a buyer when there isn't one would be counter-productive to that goal. Potential buyers might read that Facebook post and say: "Well, I guess someone beat me to it. No reason to call now." and that would be the exact opposite of what LAP wants.

So I'm leaning toward the idea that this could be the kind of truly big news we're all hoping for.

mrlogix
02-26-2016, 05:36 PM
I spoke to Marissa today at LAP getting a tracking number for my parts. I asked when will they give out an updated list of parts in stock. She said she wasn't sure because they are trying to negotiate re-stock of parts. What that means is anybodies guess.

Hughlysses
02-26-2016, 07:15 PM
^ Sure sounds like they're getting plans in place for continued support/production. I can imagine negotiating new contracts with former parts suppliers is a tough row to hoe. Some of them probably got burned pretty badly when EBR shut down. They're going to want cash up front until they're thoroughly convinced EBR will be in business for a LONG time.

Scott
02-29-2016, 09:48 AM
It's next week. . .:biggrin:

Hughlysses
02-29-2016, 11:45 AM
Hopefully they don't hold us in suspense too long.

Interesting side note- one of the guys on Badweb (I think he's on this board too) traded messages with a guy that said he's riding an EBR to be used in an advertisement starting today. It sounds like the ad is being made for EBR.

Scott
02-29-2016, 01:14 PM
Hopefully they don't hold us in suspense too long.

Interesting side note- one of the guys on Badweb (I think he's on this board too) traded messages with a guy that said he's riding an EBR to be used in an advertisement starting today. It sounds like the ad is being made for EBR.

:thumb: That is very interesting. As I mentioned a few posts back, I doubt LAP is particularly interested in selling motorcycles. They're interested in selling the company. If somebody is making a motorcycle ad/video I'd guess that represents real money being put in to sell motorcycles. And I wold guess that means a real investor and/or buyer as opposed to an interim care-taker.

Ed / AF1 Racing
02-29-2016, 05:26 PM
talked with LAP today, second time in a couple weeks.

Big announcement tomorrow about bikes going back into production.

Asked if we wanted to be a dealer....told them maybe. I asked them if they are setup with Texas as a manufacturer yet, but they didn't know and they sounded unfamiliar with the process for Texas.. That is a big process with the state that will take them months. Until they do that, we cannot get EBR added to our franchised dealer license in Texas.

And no mention of what we should do with all our 2014s in stock collecting dust....

Scott
02-29-2016, 08:18 PM
talked with LAP today, second time in a couple weeks.

Big announcement tomorrow about bikes going back into production.

Asked if we wanted to be a dealer....told them maybe. I asked them if they are setup with Texas as a manufacturer yet, but they didn't know and they sounded unfamiliar with the process for Texas.. That is a big process with the state that will take them months. Until they do that, we cannot get EBR added to our franchised dealer license in Texas.

And no mention of what we should do with all our 2014s in stock collecting dust....

It seems like getting details like that worked out should be the first priority. If you can make it as clear as possible what you need to move the 2014's and beyond, hopefully they can work with you to get it done.

The next year is going to have to be about getting the trust of dealers, suppliers and customers back . . . and that means understanding and working through details like this.

Classax
02-29-2016, 09:39 PM
talked with LAP today, second time in a couple weeks.

Big announcement tomorrow about bikes going back into production.

Asked if we wanted to be a dealer....told them maybe. I asked them if they are setup with Texas as a manufacturer yet, but they didn't know and they sounded unfamiliar with the process for Texas.. That is a big process with the state that will take them months. Until they do that, we cannot get EBR added to our franchised dealer license in Texas.

And no mention of what we should do with all our 2014s in stock collecting dust....

I'm just greatful you guys would consider hanging with the team.

Hughlysses
03-01-2016, 07:21 AM
Ed- also glad to hear you guys are at least willing to consider sticking with the brand. Hopefully they get their Texas manufacturer registration straightened out quickly.

Standing by for news from EBR...

Scott
03-01-2016, 08:56 AM
I frankly think that if the new EBR can't get some of their previous successful dealers back on board (and I think AF1 certainly fits into that class), there's no reason to even try to make another go of it.

That's not to say they have to do it immediately. They're probably working through 100 really tough things right now, and the EBR two months from now may be a different entity than the EBR today, but if I were EBR, I'd be assuring people like Ed that he was our top priority. And while they may not have all the answers now, they need to be able to say: "We are putting every effort into getting the answers and will be in contact with you throughout that process."

EBR doesn't have to move the mountain in a day, but they have to show people they're moving some rocks now.

Hughlysses
03-01-2016, 12:36 PM
I checked, and the fees aren't that bad for the manufacturer registration: $1800 for the manufacturer/distributor license fee, $40 per dealer, and $200 per manufacturer's representative: http://www.txdmv.gov/dealer/manufacture (http://www.txdmv.gov/dealer/manufacturer)

Hopefully LAP/EBR can cough up that much if that's all that's keeping them out of Texas. Even if all 50 states require something similar (and I don't think they do), that's only ~$100k or so. A lot of money, but not that much in the scheme of things.

12:35 EST and still no announcement from EBR...

Edit- but someone just confidently posted on Badweb that the BIG announcement WILL happen today.

Hughlysses
03-01-2016, 01:32 PM
AHA! http://www.jsonline.com/business/erik-buell-racing-restarts-motorcycle-production-in-east-troy-b99679298z1-370674071.html

Hughlysses
03-01-2016, 02:04 PM
More info: http://www.roadracingworld.com/news/ebr-has-resumed-production-of-american-sportbikes-in-east-troy-wisconsin/

Scott
03-01-2016, 02:20 PM
Wow. So it looks like LAP is going to fund it themselves if nobody else steps up? They hinted that was a possibility, but I didn't really think they'd go full steam ahead. They're even talking about racing?

Should be interesting to watch.

Scott
03-01-2016, 03:01 PM
^ Sure sounds like they're getting plans in place for continued support/production. I can imagine negotiating new contracts with former parts suppliers is a tough row to hoe. Some of them probably got burned pretty badly when EBR shut down. They're going to want cash up front until they're thoroughly convinced EBR will be in business for a LONG time.

I was just thinking about this because I saw it as one of the big barriers along with dealership costs and credit to cover those costs etc.

But then I was thinking a little more about this specific situation this morning. Normally a company would have about 30 days to pay their vendor and that's a nice little cushion that disappears if they have money problems and their vendors require cash-in-advance.

But rumor has it that they have parts to make about 300 bikes. Let's imagine they plan to start with 30 great dealers and go slow. Those 300 bikes will likely be a one year supply (assuming each of those dealers selling about 10 bikes). So they haven't put out a dime to suppliers over the first year.

So even if they are on cash-in-advance terms with their vendors, they're already way ahead of the game since they had 'free' parts to start with. Now when they start paying their vendors for new parts a year from now, they can imagine they're actually paying for those first parts used to manufacture the bikes that will be coming off the line in a couple weeks. Instead of 30 day payment terms, that's like 365 day payment terms.

And since they won't have those vendors coming after them for that first year, that gives them some flexibility in the terms they offer to dealers. They don't need to be paid NOW by dealers (or a financing company working with the dealers) because they don't have bills from their vendors coming due that they have to pay.

There are still a lot of hurdles to get past, but cash-flow might not be as big an issue as it would appear at first glance. A smart money manager may be able to work with the tough terms their suppliers and dealers are going to be demanding by using that prepaid inventory as a cash-cushion in place of the credit terms they would typically use as a cash-cushion.

Ed / AF1 Racing
03-01-2016, 03:41 PM
"(assuming each of those dealers selling about 10 bikes). "

EBR dealers back when the bikes were new did not sell 10 bikes each....we sold 3 total before all this mess and really bad PR

They haven't released MSRP on these 2016s. Will they be overpriced like the 2014s were?
They have said there is no flooring available for dealer stock -- I imagine GE wouldn't touch them since they are flooring a few hundred 2014s still.
Warranty on these new bikes? Warranty on the old bikes? many are still considered new sitting at dealers.
Parts support? -- hearing that LAP is already out of some spare parts.
Parts distribution to dealers? They are currently selling consumer-direct with no dealer margins.
Can they even find 10-20 dealers still interested in EBR?
Any help for the 2014s that dealers have?
Since they changed the name, do they need to reapply for all new EPA/DOT/CALI certs? Stamping VINs and printing MSOs is a big Federal deal. Is all that worked out with the new name LLC?

Hellgate
03-01-2016, 06:29 PM
I was just thinking about this because I saw it as one of the big barriers along with dealership costs and credit to cover those costs etc.

But then I was thinking a little more about this specific situation this morning. Normally a company would have about 30 days to pay their vendor and that's a nice little cushion that disappears if they have money problems and their vendors require cash-in-advance.

But rumor has it that they have parts to make about 300 bikes. Let's imagine they plan to start with 30 great dealers and go slow. Those 300 bikes will likely be a one year supply (assuming each of those dealers selling about 10 bikes). So they haven't put out a dime to suppliers over the first year.

So even if they are on cash-in-advance terms with their vendors, they're already way ahead of the game since they had 'free' parts to start with. Now when they start paying their vendors for new parts a year from now, they can imagine they're actually paying for those first parts used to manufacture the bikes that will be coming off the line in a couple weeks. Instead of 30 day payment terms, that's like 365 day payment terms.

And since they won't have those vendors coming after them for that first year, that gives them some flexibility in the terms they offer to dealers. They don't need to be paid NOW by dealers (or a financing company working with the dealers) because they don't have bills from their vendors coming due that they have to pay.

There are still a lot of hurdles to get past, but cash-flow might not be as big an issue as it would appear at first glance. A smart money manager may be able to work with the tough terms their suppliers and dealers are going to be demanding by using that prepaid inventory as a cash-cushion in place of the credit terms they would typically use as a cash-cushion.

And who would pony up the money to fund operations Someone(s) needs to come up with significant amount to operate that model. They also need deep revolving credit. And that, if they can get it would be expensive. I don't see how they could get a bond rating much more than Ba3, Non-investment grade, speculative.

Hughlysses
03-01-2016, 09:13 PM
And who would pony up the money to fund operations Someone(s) needs to come up with significant amount to operate that model. They also need deep revolving credit. And that, if they can get it would be expensive. I don't see how they could get a bond rating much more than Ba3, Non-investment grade, speculative.

Well, they re-started production today, so somebody's already paying the rent and salaries.

Scott
03-02-2016, 09:09 AM
"(assuming each of those dealers selling about 10 bikes). "

EBR dealers back when the bikes were new did not sell 10 bikes each....we sold 3 total before all this mess and really bad PR

They haven't released MSRP on these 2016s. Will they be overpriced like the 2014s were?
They have said there is no flooring available for dealer stock -- I imagine GE wouldn't touch them since they are flooring a few hundred 2014s still.
Warranty on these new bikes? Warranty on the old bikes? many are still considered new sitting at dealers.
Parts support? -- hearing that LAP is already out of some spare parts.
Parts distribution to dealers? They are currently selling consumer-direct with no dealer margins.
Can they even find 10-20 dealers still interested in EBR?
Any help for the 2014s that dealers have?
Since they changed the name, do they need to reapply for all new EPA/DOT/CALI certs? Stamping VINs and printing MSOs is a big Federal deal. Is all that worked out with the new name LLC?

Those are all great points. On the subject of MSRP, they have to be very careful. A low MSRP could move bikes but make long-term sustainability a problem. The relatively high MSRP's we've seen were probably based on selling 1000-2000 bikes a year and the price breaks they got from suppliers at those levels (which is probably why there were so many parts left-over - they probably had to buy in large lots to get the pricing they wanted).

They should try to get themselves into a situation in which demand is driving production instead of pushing bikes into dealers when the demand hadn't yet asked for it.

What they need to do (and whether or not they will do it is to be seen) is:
1. Ensure the public knows they have the funding they need and intend to be around for the next 5-10 years.
2. Work with suppliers to ensure they can get the parts they'll need in the short and long-term.
3. Let current and potential buyers know that those parts will be available.
4. Have extremely efficient 2-way communication with dealers so dealers can feel confident they'll get what they need when they need it and so that EBR has a clear understanding of what dealers need to move bikes. (I would dedicate employees to doing nothing but this with a "hotline" directly to all dealers.)
5. Offer a warranty on the 2014 bikes - the money required for that will be relatively low since they shouldn't be expecting to make many warranty repairs and they need to move the 2014's out of the way before they'll be able to sell 2016's.

The next year should be a slow, steady dealer-driven process focused on moving a small number of bikes into the hands of enthusiastic owners and dealers who are willing to pay the price (both financially and in blood, sweat and tears) to have a unique motorcycle.

As for EPA/DOT/CALI certs, common sense would tell me (and perhaps we can't invoke common-sense when the government is involved) that hardware is hardware and nothing has changed. Manufacturers don't have to re-certify every year as long as they are making the same bikes and EBR will be producing the same bikes that were certified.

Scott
03-02-2016, 09:16 AM
And who would pony up the money to fund operations Someone(s) needs to come up with significant amount to operate that model. They also need deep revolving credit. And that, if they can get it would be expensive. I don't see how they could get a bond rating much more than Ba3, Non-investment grade, speculative.

LAP has already put a couple million into this and that money is lost if they don't think they can keep things going. The largest cost for an operation like this would be parts. A profitable business might be buying $1 million worth of parts each month and shipping $1.5 million worth of finished product each month. The difference will go toward, salaries, heating, lights etc. with whatever's left being profit.

In this case, LAP won't have the parts bill. They'll just need to sell enough bikes to cover operational expenses. If they can move 100 bikes over the next 6 months and get $8000 per bike, that's $800,000 to cover costs of a small operation over that time.

If LAP doesn't have the cash to keep this running for at least a year, they shouldn't be trying. Since they're trying, I assume they have the cash (or know where they can borrow it).

Daskoff
03-02-2016, 11:51 AM
LAP has already put a couple million into this and that money is lost if they don't think they can keep things going. The largest cost for an operation like this would be parts. A profitable business might be buying $1 million worth of parts each month and shipping $1.5 million worth of finished product each month. The difference will go toward, salaries, heating, lights etc. with whatever's left being profit.

In this case, LAP won't have the parts bill. They'll just need to sell enough bikes to cover operational expenses. If they can move 100 bikes over the next 6 months and get $8000 per bike, that's $800,000 to cover costs of a small operation over that time.

If LAP doesn't have the cash to keep this running for at least a year, they shouldn't be trying. Since they're trying, I assume they have the cash (or know where they can borrow it).


You think the new bikes will be priced at 8K? I'm on the fence for a 2014 RX for about 10k but now I may just wait to see how they will price the 2016 bikes. If it will be that low, it'll really be hard for them to increase prices later unless they are trying to clear inventory and raise cash as you mention. Also it would be interesting what they have in the 2017 pipeline, if anything, but may only be evolutionary changes (perhaps not many) - again initial pricing of the new bikes will be pretty important. I'm guessing it'll be around the 13k price point.

noone1569
03-02-2016, 01:05 PM
My local dealer moved 8 rx/sx and 1 RS so far; apparently that was enough to make them the #1 dealer in the world for 2014.

I'm curious as to the future. There was some mention in the latest article about warranties. LAP did say they are exploring options for us owners.

My take on the new msrp: RX: $12,500 SX: $11,500

d_adams
03-02-2016, 02:44 PM
^ That right there is where I'd expect prices to fall. They have roughly 300 finished, nearly finished or the parts to build bikes sitting there. Can they sell them as they are? Dunno, but if they can, they're sitting on essentially free money. $3.6 million if sold at $12k average price. All of those bikes/parts are already paid for at the expense of the suppliers for those said parts. I definitely get why some of the suppliers would be a little bit bitter about it all. I'd hate to lose 1/2 a million in parts or whatever and have to write it off. I can see a business tanking pretty quick as a parts supplier if that were the case.

Hellgate
03-03-2016, 08:30 PM
^ That right there is where I'd expect prices to fall. They have roughly 300 finished, nearly finished or the parts to build bikes sitting there. Can they sell them as they are? Dunno, but if they can, they're sitting on essentially free money. $3.6 million if sold at $12k average price. All of those bikes/parts are already paid for at the expense of the suppliers for those said parts. I definitely get why some of the suppliers would be a little bit bitter about it all. I'd hate to lose 1/2 a million in parts or whatever and have to write it off. I can see a business tanking pretty quick as a parts supplier if that were the case.

Exactly, that's my point from above. Buell/EBR, etc has never made money. Unless someone(s) has very deep pockets to build a proper dealer network, fund R&D, and pay for operations they'll be out in a 1 to 3 years.

Honestly I don't see anyone, aside from Bad Webber's, buying one. When you go to AF1 and an EBR is parked next to an RSV4, there's no comparison, the Ape wins every time; fit, finish, goodies, etc.

Hughlysses
03-04-2016, 08:34 AM
Buell/EBR, etc has never made money.

Please cite your source for this statement. While EBR was obviously deeply in the hole based on published information, we really don't know what Buell's balance sheet was since it was controlled in-house by Harley Davidson. Buell apparently did make a profit for a significant portion of its existence. Published articles state that profits from the sale of XB's were what gave Buell the money to go outside to Rotax to design the 1125 engine.

Plotter
03-04-2016, 09:37 AM
Please cite your source for this statement. While EBR was obviously deeply in the hole based on published information, we really don't know what Buell's balance sheet was since it was controlled in-house by Harley Davidson. Buell apparently did make a profit for a significant portion of its existence. Published articles state that profits from the sale of XB's were what gave Buell the money to go outside to Rotax to design the 1125 engine.

Hughlysses,

Clicking on Hellgates profile and viewing past postings just tell me he's a troll to be ignored... He's never said one nice thing about Buell/EBR, at least not here. I'm not sure why else he would contribute, except to excite his own fascination and delight at pissing people off, and somebody that obtains gratification in the failure of others...

Hellgate,

If I am wrong, please provide factual constructive statements for us all here... something that adds to the discussion...

As far as Aprilia next to an EBR... I would challenge the statement that an EBR next to an Aprilia wouldn't stand a chance... A

prilia has been building bikes for many years and have gotten to where they are through many design modifications and changes. They are established. The fact that they can place them next to an Aprilia is really saying something. I would also add that placing a ZX-10R, R1, CBR1000RR, or any other similar bike next to an Aprilia, somebody could say the same thing (the Aprilia would sell first), however, the bikes still sell... The Harley Dealership in Hawaii sells Kawasaki and Aprilia and are across the street from the Honda Ducati dealership, and strangely enough, they still sell other brands... It boils down to personal opinion.... W

e all know the reality of the situation we are in... We all know the troubles that have come down with EBR and Buell in general... We like to stay as positive as we can, with reality still around the corner....

My 2 cents...

noone1569
03-04-2016, 09:50 AM
EBR next to an aprilia eh?

828


They are both beautiful machines. The ape is just strangely beautiful with its sharp lines, mixes of colors and lines. The EBR is understated elegance IMO.
Different bikes for different folks, but I'd pick the 1190 everytime

Doug Porcaro
03-04-2016, 10:21 AM
Different bikes for different folks, but I'd pick the 1190 everytime

I agree. Personally I'd take a black RX over anything current.

yzf29
03-04-2016, 10:32 AM
Exactly, that's my point from above. Buell/EBR, etc has never made money. Unless someone(s) has very deep pockets to build a proper dealer network, fund R&D, and pay for operations they'll be out in a 1 to 3 years.

Honestly I don't see anyone, aside from Bad Webber's, buying one. When you go to AF1 and an EBR is parked next to an RSV4, there's no comparison, the Ape wins every time; fit, finish, goodies, etc.


Good to have a non Buell/ EBR pundit on the forum- looking forward to even more posts!

Doug Porcaro
03-04-2016, 11:16 AM
Really?

yzf29
03-04-2016, 12:08 PM
Really?

post #45 sarcasm alert

Hughlysses
03-04-2016, 12:16 PM
post #45 sarcasm alert

You forgot to use the special sarcasm font. :biggrin:

Diablo1
03-04-2016, 08:30 PM
Good to have a non Buell/ EBR pundit on the forum- looking forward to even more posts!

Hellgate lived the Buell experience already, with an 1125.
Plotter shouldn't be calling folks trolls, at least not on this forum.
That kind of behavior belongs over there on Badweb.

yzf29
03-04-2016, 11:01 PM
Hellgate lived the Buell experience already, with an 1125.
Plotter shouldn't be calling folks trolls, at least not on this forum.
That kind of behavior belongs over there on Badweb.


sounds good -Thanks!

Plotter
03-07-2016, 09:57 PM
Hellgate lived the Buell experience already, with an 1125.
Plotter shouldn't be calling folks trolls, at least not on this forum.
That kind of behavior belongs over there on Badweb.

I call it like I see it, and it appears that that is what it was... Not sure what the difference is between here and Badweb, is one a higher form of forum than the other?... lol

I made sure to read all of his posts before I passed any judgement... I'd prefer to have somebody tell me what is and what is not actually contribute more... but that's just me...

Diablo1
03-09-2016, 05:27 AM
I call it like I see it, and it appears that that is what it was... Not sure what the difference is between here and Badweb, is one a higher form of forum than the other?... lol

...

Yes, you're right. Badweb is a lower form of forum. It's because it's moderated by and populated with Buellaide drinkers. They don't allow criticism of anything Buell, even if it is truthful and well deserved. Badweb is like a religion or cult, and they banish folks for pointing out the Pope is fallible.

Scott
03-09-2016, 02:47 PM
You think the new bikes will be priced at 8K? I'm on the fence for a 2014 RX for about 10k but now I may just wait to see how they will price the 2016 bikes. If it will be that low, it'll really be hard for them to increase prices later unless they are trying to clear inventory and raise cash as you mention. Also it would be interesting what they have in the 2017 pipeline, if anything, but may only be evolutionary changes (perhaps not many) - again initial pricing of the new bikes will be pretty important. I'm guessing it'll be around the 13k price point.

I expect the MSRP to be a good bit higher than 8K, but I was talking about what could make things work for the factory. If I were EBR, I'd be taking less on these bikes and allowing dealers to make more to get things back up and running (while making it clear that the price would go up on future bikes). But I would also work with dealers to try to prevent them from selling the bikes at much below the MSRP (or they'll depress the price going forward). If dealers can make nice cut on these initial bikes and EBR can make enough to keep the lights on, that could hopefully be the formula needed to get things going again.

Scott
03-09-2016, 02:55 PM
On the topic of making money, I'm sure EBR put more in than they got out. But that's the way a business like this is. They've got to have a five year plan to ramp up and get to the point they'd be profitable. If Hero had stuck with them, I think they would have grown to a point that they would have been profitable.

. . . and I actually suspect Hero was smart enough to see that and got greedy.

From rumors and bits and pieces, it doesn't seem like Hero simply cut and ran (if you remember, Larry Pegram indicated that he was going to continue racing WSBK and Hero assured him they'd get past the "administrative issues"). I think Hero was pressuring Erik to sell - realizing how profitable the business could be in a few years - and he refused. They strong-armed him by refusing to pay to cover expenses and things blew up from there.

If Hero really decided they just didn't want to be a part of it any more, I think things could have gone much more smoothly. They could have created a plan that would have allowed them to remove themselves and walk away with a lot more money (while retaining the rights to their projects).

I think things happened the way they did because Hero believed in EBR and knew how profitable they would be in a few years - not the opposite.

As for Buell, if they never made money, it's likely because of creative accounting by Harley.

Hellgate
03-10-2016, 03:28 PM
Wow, I touched a nerve here. I feel like I'm on BadWeb. All things Buell are sacred and don't you dare cast a critical eye.

Never once have I wished EBR ill will. Never once have I called for their demise. Hell, I owned an 1125R and enjoyed it, when it was working. I've even defended that silly front brake, I thought it worked pretty well on the track for a solid B Group rider.

However, unlike the vast majority of Buell Fans I'm a realist. I also have over 15 years in manufacturing (semi-conductor capital equipment), have a very good understanding of GAAP, and I am a small business owner.

Again, given the situation, unless someone(s) have very deep pockets this venture will not become a self-licking ice cream cone. Manufacturing is incredibly capital intensive and the up front costs are insane.

The short term issue Buell has is they find themselves selling a 2014 product in 2016. The amount of change in the motorcycle industry over this period is staggering. EBR has not had the opportunity to conduct R&D and refresh the line during that time. Time marches on and waits for no one. Assembling the left over part sounds easy enough, but of the original 2014 are still on the showroom floor, how on earth will the new/old ones sell?

The long term issues are; can the build a solid dealer network? Can they refresh the bikes to compete with current offerings? Can they drive customers to the show room and turn that traffic into sales?

I stand by my statement that dollar-for-dollar, an EBR doesn't hold a candle to an Aprilia. The fit and finish simply isn't there yet. The plastic body work isn't as nice, the fasteners aren't as nice, the rearsets are odd, and the electronic package pales in comparison. Especially with the TV4 1100 refresh. It's an amazing motorcycle. That and people who don't know Buell find the whole bike rather odd. Remember, the bottomline is sales. It's great to hold to a vision, a purity if you will, but if no one will pay for it, what's the point?

Now, if dealers are willing to give away a new EBR for $9,999.99 that is a different story as they are simply cutting their losses and opening up floor space.

While new EBR bikes are coming off the manufacturing line, who are they going to? What dealers and customers are waiting with cash in hand to buy one? If I wanted to buy one where do I go?

Lastly on profitability, if they had high margin why have they been dumped repeatedly? If they were profitable they would not have been dumped. Really, it's that simple.

In closing I do hope the new and improved EBR can pull a rabbit out of their hat and succeed. The realist in me suspects they have a long and dumpy road in front of them at best.

Oh, and if you think I'm a troll, come visit the Aprilia political section...

Hellgate
03-10-2016, 03:36 PM
Yes, you're right. Badweb is a lower form of forum. It's because it's moderated by and populated with Buellaide drinkers. They don't allow criticism of anything Buell, even if it is truthful and well deserved. Badweb is like a religion or cult, and they banish folks for pointing out the Pope is fallible.

They wear funny hats too...

Hughlysses
03-10-2016, 04:47 PM
What's with all the Badweb hate here? It is, after all, a Buell enthusiasts forum. If you're trying to keep a Buell running, there's not a better source of help out there. Yea, if you want to compare and contrast Buells to other bikes, you'll probably be happier somewhere else.

Back to EBR- you know, we've all been assuming they had a bunch of partially complete 2015's sitting at the factory, and that those were basically the same 2014 models with some very minor tweaks, and we're assuming these are the bikes that will start rolling out of the factory in a week.

It is possible that EBR had actually begun construction of 2016 models prior to the closure and that these bikes are "true" 2016 models. Maybe they actually have some real upgrades that haven't been revealed yet. Isn't ABS mandatory in Europe for the 2016 model year? EBR had a pretty big presence in Europe, so maybe the bikes include ABS. The addition of ABS, some tweaks to the fit and finish (I'm sure EBR wasn't oblivious to the cracking body work), and a slightly lower price might makes these bikes a LOT more competitive in the marketplace.

zviadi
03-11-2016, 06:51 AM
From Badweb:
830
In order not to speculate, then all questions can be asked Eric.

mackja
03-11-2016, 07:07 AM
Personally I would not give you two cents for the Aprilia, while it is a great machine for me it is the most uncomfortable medieval torture device on two wheels.
I have put quit a few miles on one, and yes the engine is wonderful, but my EBR handles better and I can ride it for more than 20 minutes with out any pain or cramping. For me the Aprilia is ugly, I don't care for the transformer styling. Bottom line people buy what they like what is comfortable to them, for me the EBR is an incredible machine, I like the raw mechanical feeling the bike has.
Bad web is a really good site, can't imagine why they are so fiercely supportive of Buell and EBR products, that is a mind boggling conundrum! After all it is a Buell EBR site. We have a great variety in choices of what we can ride, imagine how boring it would be if they all were the same.

Hughlysses
03-11-2016, 08:19 AM
In order not to speculate, then all questions can be asked Eric.

The press release from LAP last week stated:
Prices and other information are expected to be released next week.

So, hopefully we will learn more today.

Scott
03-11-2016, 08:28 AM
Personally I would not give you two cents for the Aprilia, while it is a great machine for me it is the most uncomfortable medieval torture device on two wheels.
I have put quit a few miles on one, and yes the engine is wonderful, but my EBR handles better and I can ride it for more than 20 minutes with out any pain or cramping. For me the Aprilia is ugly, I don't care for the transformer styling. Bottom line people buy what they like what is comfortable to them, for me the EBR is an incredible machine, I like the raw mechanical feeling the bike has.
Bad web is a really good site, can't imagine why they are so fiercely supportive of Buell and EBR products, that is a mind boggling conundrum! After all it is a Buell EBR site. We have a great variety in choices of what we can ride, imagine how boring it would be if they all were the same.

I have zero interest in Aprilia. The idea that Aprilia has made a perfect bike and there's no room for anything else is ludicrous. One could argue that a Corvette Z06 can do anything a Ferrari 458 can do for a fraction of the cost. So why would anybody ever buy a Ferrari?

Because everybody is looking for something different. For some people "American Made" is more important than "Does well in WSBK in highly modified form with a top rider and well-funded and experienced team". For others the latter is the most important selling point.

EBR's certainly aren't for everybody . . . but neither is Aprilia or BMW or Yamaha or MV Augusta etc. etc. etc. etc. All those brands make bikes that can perform at levels far beyond anything any of us will ever use, but each offers something unique that strikes different chords in different peoples brains.

I like narrow V-Twins, I like clean, simple design without a lot of edges and contrasting colors splashed all over it, I like uniqueness, I like American made and I like a bike that is still a little rough around the edges and has a 'soul'. For all those reasons Aprilia isn't even in the same class as EBR for me.

If EBR was selling 50,000 bikes a year and wanted to expand to 100,000, that would be tough. How would they take that market share from other bikes and really stand out? But they're not in that situation. They only need to sell a few hundred bikes to get moving again. EBR has enough unique characteristics that set them apart that I think, with the right dealers, they can find enough crazies out there to get them up and running and to the point they'll no longer have to worry about selling enough bikes to keep the lights on. . . and THEN they can start worrying about how to compete in a broader market.

Hughlysses
03-11-2016, 09:51 AM
EBR naysayer admits he was wrong, but he REALLY doesn't like doing it:

https://rideapart.com/articles/riding-wrong-side-proclaiming-wrongness

:lol:

Plotter
03-11-2016, 10:07 AM
EBR naysayer admits he was wrong, but he REALLY doesn't like doing it:

https://rideapart.com/articles/riding-wrong-side-proclaiming-wrongness

:lol:

Admits he's wrong while pouring salt over the wounds... I'd say a real apology doesn't include excerpts about how his intent was correct... and then say... I shouldn't say that if I'm 100% in the wrong...

It's like, I didn't mean to hit you in the face and I'm sorry, but really, why was your face in the way of my fist? Should you have moved over?... I said I was going to swing... but I'm wrong...

noone1569
03-11-2016, 10:13 AM
Ride Apart's quality has been **** since Wes Siler left. Wes was a true motorcycle enthusiast. Some of the new staff there at ride apart doesn't even ride. WTF. Site is junk now and doesn't even deserve the page views.

Scott
03-11-2016, 10:17 AM
Admits he's wrong while pouring salt over the wounds... I'd say a real apology doesn't include excerpts about how his intent was correct... and then say... I shouldn't say that if I'm 100% in the wrong...

It's like, I didn't mean to hit you in the face and I'm sorry, but really, why was your face in the way of my fist? Should you have moved over?... I said I was going to swing... but I'm wrong...

If you think it's hard being an EBR fan with all that's gone on, imagine being an EBR hater. There's no shortage of people who can't wait to dance on Erik Buell's grave, but the pesky bastard just won't stay dead.:tongue:

Hughlysses
03-11-2016, 10:30 AM
If you think it's hard being an EBR fan with all that's gone on, imagine being an EBR hater. There's no shortage of people who can't wait to dance on Erik Buell's grave, but the pesky bastard just won't stay dead.:tongue:

Ain't that the friggin' truth. NOT gonna happen. :nana:

Doug Porcaro
03-11-2016, 12:03 PM
Personally I would not give you two cents for the Aprilia, while it is a great machine for me it is the most uncomfortable medieval torture device on two wheels.
I have put quit a few miles on one, and yes the engine is wonderful, but my EBR handles better and I can ride it for more than 20 minutes with out any pain or cramping. For me the Aprilia is ugly, I don't care for the transformer styling. Bottom line people buy what they like what is comfortable to them, for me the EBR is an incredible machine, I like the raw mechanical feeling the bike has.
Bad web is a really good site, can't imagine why they are so fiercely supportive of Buell and EBR products, that is a mind boggling conundrum! After all it is a Buell EBR site. We have a great variety in choices of what we can ride, imagine how boring it would be if they all were the same.

I agree completely.

Having different tastes and opinions is a good thing but there's no reason you come on a brand specific forum and trash talk other than regret and/or feel better about yourself and/or get attention.

Though no one's forcing anything on anyone so lets move on please.

Hellgate
03-11-2016, 05:33 PM
I agree completely.

Having different tastes and opinions is a good thing but there's no reason you come on a brand specific forum and trash talk other than regret and/or feel better about yourself and/or get attention.

Though no one's forcing anything on anyone so lets move on please.

You're correct my friend. EBR's are the best motorcycle ever made and this iteration will sell more than Honda ever has. I love EBR and I want to marry Erik and have "The Elves as Bride's Maids." Or is it Groomsmen? I'm not really sure. Are elves gender neutral???

*****************************************

Dudes this F'ing site is even still up because the sponsor is the best Piaggio Group dealer in the world. Aprilia "pays" for this site. Good lord...

While you have "no interest in Aprilia," they are footing the bill. Show some deference. But then there is always Bad Web...

Ed, Micah, feel free to kill my account here. I refuse to put up with insufferable Buellaide drinkers...****ers...

d_adams
03-11-2016, 06:07 PM
If you feel that strongly about it, deactivate the account yourself? Or maybe just quit clicking the bookmark you have saved for the site? Or just delete it?

zviadi
03-12-2016, 01:14 AM
Hellgate - don't worry so much for the EBR. This forum is not necessary to leave. You don't like EBR? No problem, everyone has different tastes.
Eric makes a good bikes, Aprilia also makes good bikes. I like Aprilia, I had two aprilias (RSV1000R and DD1200), both with v-twin. I love only v-twins, no f*cking in-line four. All my bikes were v-twins. Aprilia has not produced V2 sports bike. Unfortunately. RSV4 is great bike.
But EBR better for me. It my everyday bike. It is easier, faster, more capacity than RSV4 (RR, not RF - we compare bikes of the same MY, yes?), he is v-twin and it does not have onboard ABS and other f*cking unnecessary electronics. In its behavior on the road 1190 reminds me of a forced RSV Mille.
I like these simple motorcycles.
All Aprilias a lot of problems in electronics, all Aprilias electronics is not working on the correct algorithm. All who ride on these motorcycles quickly disable it. And I including. In my opinion, ABS and traction is not needed, neither bikes nor cars. You should be able to drive without electronic crutches. Can't ride without them - don't buy this powerful vehicle.

I am not a fun of any brand. Today I have a Honda, tomorrow - Aprilia, day after tomorrow - KTM, then can be anything - even a BMW or Suzuki.
I always treat critically and objectively.

Doug Porcaro
03-14-2016, 01:21 PM
Leave it to the internet to surface these dickheads. So without Aprilia no other EBR forum could exist? Give me a break. I also like how you assume I'm a "Buellaide" drinker. Even if I was, so what? I own an early RSV Mille with some personal touches and I absolutely LOVE it. I think it's one of the most beautiful bikes ever and I love how it rides and I'll never sell it. I also have custom VFR750 which I also love. I could not care less if they outsold Honda or anyone. Popularity has never been a determining factor in my decisions. In fact if something is popular I'm hesitant as I think most people are tasteless sheep. Though you won't see me anywhere trash talking them or the things they like because it's none of my business and I simply don't care! You don't speak for everybody saying only badwebbers will buy one and there's plenty proof of that. Anyone who wants a gorgeous unique machine with a massive powerband that can turn over 200 crank simply by changing the exhaust/ECM all while handling like a 600 will be interested. The company is not a goldmine but they will be able to sell enough to stay profitable. Bimotas don't fly off the sales floors but they manage to stay around because they have character and enough people like them. You won't get any more attention from me. I hope you do get deleted.

Plotter
03-14-2016, 03:09 PM
I had never heard of Badweb when I bought my EBR. Neither had a buddy of mine from work that bought one... I actually got onto this site, after I bought my bike, but was referred multiple times to Badweb...

I don't understand why people go onto sites that they don't like the product... I am not a big fan of jeeps... I don't go onto jeep forums to let them know that Consumer Reports regularly puts them in dead last... Why waste my time?... I go onto forums and sites for products I own and/or like, because I learn from them and get to talk with other people that share my interest...

These are not the sites you are looking for...

Mike
03-14-2016, 07:24 PM
I do go to various forums of products that I do not own... But it for the learning, see what others are doing with a "similar" product to what I own.
And agree, keep your mouth shut if you have nothing good to say, especially about an item that you do not even own.

I find it funny when people give gospel information about an item that they do not own..! So much for internet "hearsay" experts..!

Mike