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Mike
12-03-2015, 03:31 AM
Just a heads up. I went to three shops today to buy one valve shim for my RX. Two of the shops use the "Hot Cams" shims.
If you want the adjustment to stay in place for the longest period of time...DO NOT use the Hot Cams shims, as they lack the proper heat treatment to make them hard enough to last.

If you can remove surface metal with a file or sand paper...they are NOT hard enough.
Back when I was driving my 1125CR every day, at one adjustment period, all eight shims needed to be replaced. I bought a Hot Cams kit. One particular valve needed an in-between size. Out of frustration, I got out a fresh piece of 600 grit sand paper...NOT expecting anything to happen. What do I see...material coming off the shim..! I was able to remove .002" without problem.
I took one of the Rotax (branded) shims, 600 grit paper did nothing. 400 grit sand paper did nothing... I tried a couple more Hot Cams shims thinking maybe someone made a mistake in the heat treatment. Nope, three different thickness shims I was able to remove material.

I ended up at a Harley buying a V-Rod shim today. I checked...it's nice and hard.

Your money, your engine, this is just a heads-up if you want your adjustment to last more than a coupla thousand miles.

Mike

zviadi
12-03-2015, 05:59 AM
What recommend manufacturer of valve shims?

Doosh
12-03-2015, 06:54 AM
Interesting. I've been using the Hot Cams kit for years now. I do probably 4 valve adjustments a year (2 race bikes), and I've never noticed wear beyond what the factory shims also show -- the bit of polishing that happens in the center. I also re-use shims since you only get a few of each size -- so I'll bet a couple of these shims have seen service duty on both intake and exhaust, over quite a period of high-rpm use.

I wonder if you got one of a bad run of kits or something.

d_adams
12-03-2015, 07:28 AM
Same here, did 4 valve adjustment/checks on my 1125, never really had any issues with the Hot Cams kit.

zviadi
12-03-2015, 08:41 AM
Similarly, although use Hot Cams - no problems.
Moreover - from V-Rod also sell kits Hot Cams:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/130823723621?_trksid=p2055119.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT

There are sets of Moose racing:
http://www.mooseracing.com/products/?productGroupId=2002&productId=120945
Selling hear on AF1, I bought them for my Aprilia DD1200.

Mike
12-03-2015, 09:46 PM
If you can sand them thinner with sand paper, they are too soft...period.
I like my adjustments to last a while longer than a few months..! I drive my bike daily, 22,000 to 24,000 a year. I need it to last as it was designed without working on it all the time..!

Here we go again, details. Best to pay attention to the details.

As I said, your money your engine..!

Me, I'll follow Rotax's (Buell/EBR's, even Harley's) lead, and not buy the cheapest parts available.

Mike

zviadi
12-04-2015, 12:41 AM
I also travel a lot on my EBR - this is my only bike. And this is my everyday bike. My average mileage - 3000 km per month.
Can you give a link to the correct shims?
Or you are using the original EBR shims (F2200.1B6 etc)?

Doosh
12-04-2015, 08:03 AM
Run... run for your lives!

http://www.davidmcelroy.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/Chicken-Little-on-CNN.jpg

Plotter
12-04-2015, 05:20 PM
Run... run for your lives!

http://www.davidmcelroy.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/Chicken-Little-on-CNN.jpg


You sir... are a Doosh-bag.... lol...

Cracked me up...

Brutus1190
12-11-2015, 02:55 AM
So the V-Rod shims are the same as the 1125 & 1190?

d_adams
12-11-2015, 10:29 AM
Yes, they are.

phelan
10-15-2017, 08:14 PM
Might as well get the whole kit from SPHD while you can at this price.

https://sphdonline.com/products/v1190-13az-genuine-ebr-valve-shim-adjustment-kit-for-all-1125-and-1190-models

rb21
10-15-2017, 09:27 PM
Thanks for the heads up - i was beginning to regret not buying a set from LAP earlier.


Might as well get the whole kit from SPHD while you can at this price.

https://sphdonline.com/products/v1190-13az-genuine-ebr-valve-shim-adjustment-kit-for-all-1125-and-1190-models

Subarubrat
10-16-2017, 11:38 PM
It would not surprise me, what manufacturer would not buy off the shelf solutions for other ****. Lambo uses Nissan headlights, Lotus used Toyota engines, Buell used HD engines, and Ferrari charges $450 for a $80 Bosch 02 sensor.

Cooter
10-17-2017, 12:08 PM
The list of proprietary parts on most vehicles is actually quite small.

rb21
10-23-2017, 08:16 PM
Has anyone else ordered this kit? Mine did not come with the 3.000 shims per the description - just wondering if the description was wrong or if my kit was short.

Mike
10-23-2017, 08:37 PM
BEWARE SOFT shims..!

A few years back, I bought a box of shims to adjust the valves on my 1125CR. I needed a shim between two numbers in the box. Out of boredom, I took a piece of 600 grit sand paper to try to thin this HARD shim a little. To my surprise...I COULD actually sand it.

This IS A BAD thing for the Buells, as the shim is a friction member. If a little piece of 600 grit sand paper can cut into the shim, the valve and or the rocker arm SURE will.

The Buell and Harley shims are VERY hard. No sand paper or file will dig into them..!
Take a small jewelers file with you, try to file one of the shims (on an edge !), if the file marks, even polishes the shim, ask for your money back.

I've heard of people using the soft shims...odd because there's a good reason Buell and Harley use very "hard" shims.
The soft shims are fine protected under a bucket where no parts slide on it, but as a "stressed or sacrificial" member...not in my engines..!

Your engine, your money.........

Mike

rb21
10-23-2017, 08:44 PM
I should have specified which kit i was talking about - i ordered the factory kit from the HD dealer - the link from Phelans post. It just didn't have the last set of shims listed in the description.

Update -just checked the latest parts list from LAP and the largest single shim listed was a 2.975 - so it looks to me that the description from SPHD was just off.

Kid Thunder
10-23-2017, 11:40 PM
I've never seen inside of the head on these engines but are the valve shims on TOP of the keeper? How do the come out? Do I have to pull the cam? Thanks.

rb21
10-24-2017, 07:32 AM
Haven't been in myself either but watched the video in the service manual - there is a "finger" that goes between the cam and the shim that can be moved out of the way to remove/replace the shim. Looks pretty easy - cams are not removed.

buell-fan
10-24-2017, 12:20 PM
rb21, would you please check the hardness of one of those shims, as Mike and others have found soft shims in other manufacturers' kits, and report back to us your findings. Thanks.

rb21
10-24-2017, 12:58 PM
Sure can - I also have a kit of hot cam shims from an old dirt bike that I can use to compare. I'll see if I can do this tonight - if not I'll do it this weekend.

rb21
10-24-2017, 07:06 PM
I would say that my non scientific test results should be considered Inconclusive. I used a set of hobby files, because thats all i have, on the edge of each shim with a fair amount of pressure and don't really see a difference between the two. I'll try to get a good picture later once i find our good camera - cell phone camera is not doing it. I am assuming that jewellers files as mentioned by Mike earlier may have a bit more bite and be a better tool for the test. Probably still a bit vague - a rockwell hardness test would most likely be something that would give us the real usable info. I don't have access to that kind of equipment.

Cooter
10-24-2017, 07:12 PM
Any basic machine shop should. Engine rebuilder etc... Is there one near you?
That is of course, if you're willing to spend that kind of time on it. Sorry for assuming:smirk:

rb21
10-24-2017, 08:58 PM
Let me look around - if its not expensive and somewhat convenient I'll do it just for kicks and let you all know.

buell-fan
10-24-2017, 09:24 PM
rb21, sounds like they are the real deal if they didn't mar on you unscientific scratch test! I had read the Hot Cams shims kit were softer than OEM & H-D shims, and shouldn't be used in the EBR.

rb21
10-25-2017, 08:10 AM
Turns out a friend of mine has the proper equipment to test hardness where he works. Should be able to post results next week.

EBRRider
10-25-2017, 08:18 AM
Thank will be good to know , thx

rb21
11-13-2017, 08:31 PM
The results are in. I randomly pulled one shim from each kit and sent it to the a lab at my buddies office. The pic below has the results. Looks to me that they are very similar. They did three spots on each shim using the Rockwell A and C test methods. I don't know the details of each test method- just have the results.

Cooter
11-13-2017, 11:30 PM
And that concludes our show, have a good night:biggrin:


Thank you rb21! Concrete evidence is so rare these days:) I'll be getting a shim kit for my upcoming adjustment (1000 more miles won't take long).

Mike
11-14-2017, 08:09 PM
Sorry ladies, if a piece of 600 grit sand paper will remove .002" of material from a Hot Cams shim...that is NOT 60 Rockwell on the C scale...period.
I'm sticking with real shims.

Your engine, your money...

Mike

Cooter
11-15-2017, 12:07 AM
If you're disputing the evidence, please provide your own real evidence. I for one would be very interested to see that!

buell-fan
11-15-2017, 08:36 PM
Thanks for taking the time to get the results of the tests to us. The hotcams shims are definitely softer, as we've been told. The kit from the St. Paul H-D is definitely worth it too. Especially if you have a couple bikes or plan on keeping them a while.

EBRRider
11-16-2017, 08:58 AM
https://www.ebay.com/itm/EBR-Erik-Buell-Racing-1190SX-1190RX-KIT-Valve-Adjustment-Shims-F2200-1B6-Rev-A/202108106873?hash=item2f0e94f879:g:eK8AAOSwYp9aBGi D&vxp=mtr

Doosh
11-16-2017, 05:08 PM
Sorry ladies, if a piece of 600 grit sand paper will remove .002" of material from a Hot Cams shim...that is NOT 60 Rockwell on the C scale...period.
I'm sticking with real shims.

The grit on aluminum oxide sandpaper is harder than most steels, even harder (or as hard) has highly hardened steels.

Mike
11-16-2017, 09:06 PM
Mr. Doosh

Sorry, I gave the same test a try to both a Buell shim and a Harley shim.
Guess what...not even a mark..! As I recall, I even tried fresh sand paper with WD-40...only s slight discolor. Working in the Aerospace industry for over 30 years has taught me a few things. Sand paper, files, burrs, etc. will NOT mark an item that measures 60 (or +) on the Rockwell C scale.

Although...a hammer and sharp center punch with a "hard" hit will..! Of course, that also depends on if said part is thru hard or surface hard. Then, if it's surface hard, how deep is the surface ?

Funny thing too, after calling Hot Cams and asking about their product, they told me they were as hard as they need to be for "shim under bucket"..!! Doesn't THAT say something.!

NOW...this is all about 2 two years old.
They (Hot Cams) COULD have changed their process and materials in this amount of time to make their product usable as a "wear" item with a "hard" surface.
If they have...good on them.

Mike

LeesEBR
11-17-2017, 10:50 AM
...this is all about 2 two years old.
They (Hot Cams) COULD have changed their process and materials in this amount of time to make their product usable as a "wear" item with a "hard" surface.
If they have...good on them.
For $80 you could test that theory and lay your claim to rest. http://amzn.to/2hHJ7NB

Cooter
11-17-2017, 12:30 PM
The results are in. I randomly pulled one shim from each kit and sent it to the a lab at my buddies office. The pic below has the results. Looks to me that they are very similar. They did three spots on each shim using the Rockwell A and C test methods. I don't know the details of each test method- just have the results.

Post #29

LeesEBR
11-17-2017, 12:49 PM
Post #29
I saw that. Mike is justifying his test by claiming Hot Cams might have started using hardened shims in their kits since his original file test (which isn't accurate due to varying grades of abrasive material). I was merely suggesting he solidify that claim by testing a current set of shims.

If the lab says they're hard, I believe they're hard. The only other way to somewhat-accurately test is with testers files, but that will still only give you a hardness range which will likely give you the same results as the lab test.

Doosh
11-17-2017, 06:23 PM
I've got mote race hours on these motors than just about anyone. I use the hot cams kit with no issue. And, one i bought about 6 years ago at that. By now its a big mix of OEM abd hot cams shims and i dont knoe which is which I've done so many adjustments on so many motors over the years.

The real complaint of the hotcams kit is the intervals are a bit coarse.

Cooter
11-17-2017, 09:57 PM
I saw that. Mike is justifying his test by claiming Hot Cams might have started using hardened shims in their kits since his original file test (which isn't accurate due to varying grades of abrasive material). I was merely suggesting he solidify that claim by testing a current set of shims.

If the lab says they're hard, I believe they're hard. The only other way to somewhat-accurately test is with testers files, but that will still only give you a hardness range which will likely give you the same results as the lab test.

oh, Gotcha:cheers:

StrangeTrip
11-19-2017, 10:28 AM
For $80 you could test that theory and lay your claim to rest. http://amzn.to/2hHJ7NB

Look at the third review of the shims on Amazon, the guy says "you can sand them to fit" WTF?
That doesn't sound good?

EBRRider
11-19-2017, 10:42 AM
Yes, this true, you can take any brand shim and sand it down with 600 wet/dry paper. I did this on my KTM and my honda.
They are case hardened so dont over do it.

LeesEBR
11-19-2017, 08:36 PM
Look at the third review of the shims on Amazon, the guy says "you can sand them to fit" WTF?
That doesn't sound good?
As already explained, you can sand hardened steel. If hardened steel wasn't sand-able, you'd never be able to sharpen your knives.

Mike
11-19-2017, 09:04 PM
EBRRider -

You apparently didn't read my last post..!
I DID...try sanding both the EBR and Harley shims...not even hardly a mark (dry) on either..!
While the previously mentioned shims...took .002" in just a minute or so..! NOT a good thing.

This IS funny yea know. Many claim EBR/Buell to be the best thing since sliced bread...yet here you are cheapen out on critical components ?

Your money, your engine...I'm out.

Mike

EBRRider
11-19-2017, 11:16 PM
I am not suggesting I would do it on my EBR, Just saying I have done it on my dirt bikes.

LeesEBR
11-20-2017, 05:15 PM
Mike,

Are you running sandpaper for followers? Is your top-end dry? If neither of those applies, neither does your sandpaper test.

Get some 2k+ grit sandpaper, cover it and the shim in motor oil, see if it still removes anything.

LeesEBR
11-20-2017, 05:21 PM
http://www.motorcycle.com/gallery/video.php/d/51167-5/08-buell-1125r-valve-adjustment-1.jpg

The shims are not installed nor utilized in a manner where 600-grit sandpaper is anywhere near a real-world depiction of use nor a legitimate test.

zviadi
11-23-2017, 02:18 PM
I already wrote in the beginning of this topic that at 6000 miles I used Hot Cams.
Continuation of a story. For 12000 miles I regretted the adjustment of the valves for various reasons, mainly because of laziness.
Now the run is approaching the third valve adjustment interval (18000 miles) - still all right with the engine. Riding is constantly at high revs. This engine is quite reliable.


Mike, could not the mod be so nervous and leave this forum?
I still have questions for you about the greatly inflated shipping cost of original spare parts to Russia. So business is not done.

zac4mac
11-23-2017, 07:12 PM
My experience has been similar to Mike's.
The shims are very hard, I use diamond files.

Cooter
11-23-2017, 10:16 PM
That's a funny point zac4mac. Mike could be right in that the old Hot Cams shims are not quite hardened as much as what the factory provides. But so what?

As long as it makes it to each adjustment interval without being too far out of spec, who cares? I would actually prefer the softest shim possible to make it to each valve adjustment period. Why? There's going to be wear of some sort. I'd rather wear out a shim than a camshaft. I don't re-use shims for that reason and I'm anal so don't argue with me that it's unneccesary because you're right but they're cheap;)

If EBR feels a harder shim is a good midway between cam wear and long service intervals, who am I to disagree?

LeesEBR
11-24-2017, 12:10 AM
zac4mac ... a diamond file will bite into steel, hardened or not. Poor testing method.

Furthermore, the cam doesn't directly act on (or make contact with) the shim...the cam acts on a follower which pushes on the shim. As a result, abrasion tests are utterly moot.

d_adams
11-24-2017, 06:29 AM
I'll throw a penny into the mix here just because. If your shims are actually wearing down, then your bike is probably suffering from metal to metal contact. That tells me you're probably using the wrong oil or it's past the wear point or breakdown of the oil.
Normal wear would occur with the valve receding into the head slightly over time (from being hammered into it at extreme high rpm/speeds) which would tighten up the clearances. I'm on my 5th rotax based engine/bike now, I've seen it happen that way every time I've checked the valves.

Edit to note, if the shim itself is wearing, then the clearances will get larger, not smaller. Every time I've ever checked, they've always gone tight, not loose.

Cooter
11-24-2017, 11:55 AM
Both you guys are right on the money. IMHO, I don't re-use shims because I think the follower is hammering the same spot of the shim 36,000,002 times between services, that tightens valve train clearances. Add some heat, extra miles, poor oil, and its a bad thing. Your engine won't like 0 and you'll know it.

Personally I haven't seen a shim worn down out of one of my bikes, and think it's ok to re-use them even though I don't. My anal theory is the follower is banging a divot in the middle, mushrooming it, work hardening it, softening it, whatever, its been beat and definitely hard to measure so it falls into the 'why not' category. I have a cheap basket full of new ones so.... "why not"? YMMV:biggrin:

I know it's dumb and overkill:nut:.

EBRRider
11-24-2017, 01:40 PM
I am guessing you will do your valves before me , I am hoping that you will do a step by step with pics on your 1190. Not to much to ask for .:pray::pray:

Doosh
11-25-2017, 07:06 AM
Once you are at the motor, the procedure is essentially identical to the 1125r, so if you can get your hands on one of those service manuals it's helpful.

I still pull the frame on my 1190 bikes just to make the job easier, but you don't have to, and you don't have to rotate the motor, either.

EBRRider
11-25-2017, 09:39 AM
When you say pull the frame ,do you mean the magnesium rear? Really I dont have to rotate the motor !

http://buellmods.com/

Doosh
11-25-2017, 09:59 AM
No, the frame.

d_adams
11-25-2017, 10:23 AM
Like this.

1834

EBRRider
11-25-2017, 10:50 AM
Ok , thank you both, great pic Dean , pic says alot , I have 2800 more miles to go.

Cooter
11-25-2017, 12:18 PM
That bike/engine stand is simple and unobtrusive:hail: hope its not copyrighted! [runs to welder and chop saw]:biggrin:

LeesEBR
12-04-2017, 12:42 PM
I already wrote in the beginning of this topic that at 6000 miles I used Hot Cams.
Continuation of a story. For 12000 miles I regretted the adjustment of the valves for various reasons, mainly because of laziness.
Now the run is approaching the third valve adjustment interval (18000 miles) - still all right with the engine. Riding is constantly at high revs. This engine is quite reliable.
What do you regret about the 12k adjustment? Was it anything pertaining to the shims quality? By laziness do you mean in your measurements and assessments of which shims to use?

d_adams
12-04-2017, 04:18 PM
That bike/engine stand is simple and unobtrusive:hail: hope its not copyrighted! [runs to welder and chop saw]:biggrin:

Someone posted the plans for it on badweb a few years ago, he may still make/sell them. Obviously, I made my own since I know a guy that welds stuff.

Cooter
12-04-2017, 10:35 PM
Me too:smoke:

zviadi
12-20-2017, 01:29 PM
What do you regret about the 12k adjustment? Was it anything pertaining to the shims quality? By laziness do you mean in your measurements and assessments of which shims to use?


I didn't want to pick the engine, since in my region moto-season is only 5-6 months a year. It so happened that I was repairing the exhaust system three times at season. There was no desire to waste time on the valve adjustment.
I'm use Hot Cams on all my bikes. Always.

9RX
06-01-2023, 07:44 PM
Damn. Now I know why my valve adjustment was a difficult task. I did it without removing the frame... haha

The cam covers were a B to take out!! I had to use tool combinations i had never used before so i could reach the cam cover screws between frame and engine.

I will do this "pull the bike away from the engine" method on the next valve adjustment. Which I am not looking forward to...

Is there a video or pictures somewhere showing this method a bit more? I followed the NCCR video at the time, which doesn't remove the frame.

Cooter
06-02-2023, 12:18 PM
Once you figure out the frame split (it's easier than you think), it's the only way you'll work on the bike again.

ACM
06-11-2023, 07:40 PM
Then I guess I have to figure out the frame split ?

I had to hand off the valve adjustment to a mechanic friend, I simply couldn't get my sausage fingers in there to follow the NCCR tutorial. Not the first time for that problem, I had to train my smart half to change our cars' O2 sensors, my hands were just too chunky to get in there. I can almost do it when the radiator fans are removed, otherwise not a prayer. But then she has to remove/replace those too so...

Cooter
06-12-2023, 12:20 PM
You'll thank yourself. I resisted it for too long, thinking it was the long way round and a big deal, but after 2 hours of fighting a valve cover and feeler gauge access, I caved and went for it. Now, it's just what I commit too for winter service. Do it once and its seriously faster than fighting the fiddly bits.
Sometimes 2 at a time, lol:
https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51749898566_76cbfb1ed3_z.jpg

You're lucky you have a willing partner too! Bubbles tiny hands are priceless some days:bannana: