PDA

View Full Version : Intro Date for the SX?



Hughlysses
10-24-2013, 01:49 PM
I've seen posts from people who asked at the AIMExpo indicating "spring 2014" to "mid-2014". EBR has to build a LOT of bikes to meet the WSB homolgation requirements (see article here: http://www.asphaltandrubber.com/wsbk/erik-buell-racing-world-superbike-2014/).

I wonder if this won't push back the date for the SX (and AX) as they concentrate on building RXs?

Scott
10-25-2013, 10:25 AM
Well since they knew when they were at AIM (and probably for the past 3 years) how many bikes they needed for WSBK, I doubt that would change any plans.

BUT, it does seem like for the past few years we've been hearing dates that seem to slide back, I would expect that if the intention at this moment is to release the SX by early summer, that could get pushed back to fall or later, so I'll try to be patient.

fast1075
10-26-2013, 08:21 AM
At the AIM Expo, two different EBR people told me "spring" 2014. But I suspect it means a "reveal", not units in the showroom, unless there has been a LOT more going on in East Troy than we know.

Scott
11-09-2013, 09:13 AM
I've been checking out the latest 'naked bikes from Milan, and they seem like anything but naked to me.

I hope EBR can find a way to make something cleaner than these. They'r still covered with plastic bodywork - just less functional bodywork than an actual fairing.


136

137

I'm not sure if it will be possible with the radiator, but I hope the can do something that's at least close to the 12S (I was never a big fan of the CR)

Doosh
11-10-2013, 12:54 PM
It's very difficult to cover up all the cooling and complexity of a modern motor to make a true naked. And, difficult to create an air-cooled bike of decent power EPA and CARB compliant. One could use stainless braided coolant hose and other things like that and make a true naked visually appealing, but it would cost a small fortune.

Had Buell not been killed off, I don't think the XB we knew was long for the world, anyway. It was going to need cats and all kinds of other emission control. I'd be happy to be proven wrong on this, but there's a lot of really odd hardware on modern bikes that's for nothing other than passing EPA tests. Gotta put that stuff somewhere.

Scott
11-11-2013, 01:47 PM
It's very difficult to cover up all the cooling and complexity of a modern motor to make a true naked. And, difficult to create an air-cooled bike of decent power EPA and CARB compliant. One could use stainless braided coolant hose and other things like that and make a true naked visually appealing, but it would cost a small fortune.

Had Buell not been killed off, I don't think the XB we knew was long for the world, anyway. It was going to need cats and all kinds of other emission control. I'd be happy to be proven wrong on this, but there's a lot of really odd hardware on modern bikes that's for nothing other than passing EPA tests. Gotta put that stuff somewhere.

Yeah, the last thing I want to see is a Harleyesque attempt to hide the radiator. The Typhon is probably getting very close to what I'd like to see, but there's still something about it that I don't quite like but can't put my finger on it:

139

I just hope they stay as far from the tacked on plastic pieces of the BMW and Kawasaki as possible. I don't understand what they're thinking with those, but obviously they and other bike makers seem to think consumers can't handle naked bikes because they insist on tacking plastic crap on.

Doosh
11-11-2013, 02:42 PM
I just hope they stay as far from the tacked on plastic pieces of the BMW and Kawasaki as possible. I don't understand what they're thinking with those, but obviously they and other bike makers seem to think consumers can't handle naked bikes because they insist on tacking plastic crap on.

They are thinking "How do we cover up this unsightly calamity of cooling hoses, air box and crankcase venting, and emissions control systems in a way that's economical to sell this bike at $15,000 - $18,000?

The Typhoon above has a $5,000 radiator, and a $2,000 race exhaust that's so loud it wouldn't pass an EPA drive-by test at a half mile, much less a few meters. You need not only an underslung can about 3x that size, you also need a side-mounted resonator and noise damper, like what the RS and RX use... Where ya gonna put *that* and keep the look?

Hughlysses
11-11-2013, 03:39 PM
They are thinking "How do we cover up this unsightly calamity of cooling hoses, air box and crankcase venting, and emissions control systems in a way that's economical to sell this bike at $15,000 - $18,000?

The Typhoon above has a $5,000 radiator, and a $2,000 race exhaust that's so loud it wouldn't pass an EPA drive-by test at a half mile, much less a few meters. You need not only an underslung can about 3x that size, you also need a side-mounted resonator and noise damper, like what the RS and RX use... Where ya gonna put *that* and keep the look?

That looks like a set of stock RS radiators on the Typhon, but from what a friend of mine that used to be an engineer with a radiator manufacturer, they probably did cost $5k or more. The radiators on the RX are undoubtedly much less expensive (they're much easier to build). It might take a little more work to make them fit into a shroud like that and still look good.

Here's what you do with the supplemental resonator:

http://www.asphaltandrubber.com/wp-content/gallery/buell-exhaust-swingarm-patent/buell-exhaust-swingarm-patent-3.png
Complete article here: http://www.asphaltandrubber.com/news/buell-swingarm-exhaust-patent/

According to the article, HD owns the patent, but maybe they'll let Erik use it or buy it back, or he can come up with another design that works just as well but circumvents the patent.

Scott
11-11-2013, 04:46 PM
They are thinking "How do we cover up this unsightly calamity of cooling hoses, air box and crankcase venting, and emissions control systems in a way that's economical to sell this bike at $15,000 - $18,000?

The Typhoon above has a $5,000 radiator, and a $2,000 race exhaust that's so loud it wouldn't pass an EPA drive-by test at a half mile, much less a few meters. You need not only an underslung can about 3x that size, you also need a side-mounted resonator and noise damper, like what the RS and RX use... Where ya gonna put *that* and keep the look?

I don't find those things ugly. If they're functional, there's beauty in that function. It's the plastic bodywork that I find objectionable and I'd be willing to bet that the BMW and Kawasaki would look better with the bodywork removed. And I think even the Typhon would look better without that frame around the radiator.

Doosh
11-11-2013, 05:03 PM
Here's what you do with the supplemental resonator:


That's a patent for patent's sake. Why put all that weight into the swing arm, AND have to figure out how to deal with a reliable hose to duct hot exhaust gas subject to suspension movement?

Hughlysses
11-11-2013, 05:12 PM
That's a patent for patent's sake. Why put all that weight into the swing arm, AND have to figure out how to deal with a reliable hose to duct hot exhaust gas subject to suspension movement?

Somehow, I doubt that with Buell's small staff they had time to be generating useless patents.

I don't think you'd necessarily be adding any weight to the swing arm. None of that baffle material has to be particularly heavy gauge and it would serve to stiffen the swing arm, possibly allowing material thickness (and weight) to be reduced elsewhere. Getting the exhaust from the engine to the swing arm would no doubt take some careful engineering. IIRC, the patent shows alternative rotary joint. It's not that hard to do.

You do it because it's better mass centralization, and some folks don't like to see a muffler/resonator hanging off the side of the bike. I have NO idea that EBR will actually do it; I'm just saying here's one way to get around having a muffler hanging off the side of the bike.

Doosh
11-11-2013, 05:50 PM
Yea, I want hot exhaust gas running through my aluminum swingarm... ;) I've had Al wrapped exhaust cans fail often enough I know this isn't a good idea on a whole bunch of fronts.

Lots of companies spend a lot of time creating "useless" patents. It's mostly a defensive strategy in litigation protection for tech firms. We do it all the time and we are but 100 people.

It's a bad idea, but a novel invention...

Hughlysses
11-13-2013, 07:45 AM
Well, whatever they do about the exhaust, here's an interesting comparison of the 1190RS and 1190RX radiators.

First, a pic of the 1190RS radiators I shot on one of the EBR race bikes at NOLA Motorsports Park last year:

140

Note how the radiators are cross-flow with complicated headers on each side. The tubes do not enter the tanks at 90 degrees which makes them difficult to fabricate.

Here's a shot of the front of an 1190RX taken at the show in Orlando last month. The water flow in these radiators is vertical and they're of much simpler construction. They don't "fit" the contours of the fairings tightly like the radiators on the 1190RS, but my guess is that they work just as well. The question is how do you work these with a "naked" bike? Will they have a covering similar to the Typhon, will they just hang out there in the open, or will they change to a different radiator design? Buell also had a patent for an under-seat radiator; that's another possibility.

141

Scott
11-13-2013, 08:38 AM
Great photos! I suspect they will use some body work to cover them, though they could also develop a different radiator for the SX model.

I'm probably in the minority, but I don't see anything objectionable about the appearance of those radiators and hoses. I say let them hang out if the concern is only visual - though they may also need something to duct and direct the air-flow.

As for the swing-arm exhaust, to me it's a simple matter of: Does it work? and Does it save weight? If so, then I say do it. But if it's purely an aesthetic thing and doesn't improve performance, I'm not interested. And I wouldn't presume it doesn't work just because it seems like there would be issues. Let the testing determine that.

Many would have (and many did) poo-poo the idea of an aluminum frame wrapped around a hot engine containing fuel.

Lack of imagination and unwillingness to try new things have led to motorcycles that, despite refinements and fine-tuning, are very similar to what they were 30 years ago. Is that because there are really no better ways to do things or is it just a lack of imagination and unwillingness to take risk?

Doosh
11-13-2013, 08:51 AM
Does it work? and Does it save weight? If so, then I say do it. But if it's purely an aesthetic thing and doesn't improve performance, I'm not interested. And I wouldn't presume it doesn't work just because it seems like there would be issues. Let the testing determine that

It would for for a little while. I doubt it saves weight, but would open up packaging options.

It adds unsprung weight. Also, there's a reason exhaust secondaries are not made of Aluminum. It deteriorates and fails in that application over not so much time. Aluminum is light and cheap, if it were a good exhaust material it would have been employed as such eons ago.

Scott
11-25-2013, 09:47 AM
We've been talking about the exhaust patent, but there are also some interesting radiator patents here - with application dates after the Buell shut-down.

http://appft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO2&Sect2=HITOFF&p=1&u=%2Fnetahtml%2FPTO%2Fsearch-bool.html&r=0&f=S&l=50&TERM1=buell&FIELD1=&co1=AND&TERM2=motorcycle&FIELD2=&d=PG01