PDA

View Full Version : EBR in World Superbike



Pages : [1] 2

Scott
10-19-2013, 02:59 PM
The announcement that they will be participating in World Superbike is nearly as exciting to me as the bike itself, and I was hoping we can get some conversation/speculation going during the looooong wait until they'll actually be competing.

We know Geoff May will be riding, will there be another rider? If so, who? I certainly hope they will have a second rider.

Cory West and Aaron Yates should be available if the team feels they're the right fit. Personally I'd rather see Cory than Aaron if those are the two choices. Cory has shown moments of brilliance and he's still relatively young. Aaron is older and wiser and could probably be more competitive in 2014 than Cory, but I'm interested in the long-term. They will likely be struggling to even break the top 10 next year, but a young rider can learn and grow and be more competitive in years to come.

A rider with real Superbike experience would be great. Are there any talented riders who aren't committed for next year yet? I'd be interested in names that might not be known yet. There must be talented young riders in the WSBK support classes who have some experience on the tracks and would be ready to move up to Superbike.

It seems that EBR has been tight-lipped and said very little other than: "We'll be racing World Superbike in 2014". Has anyone heard even any vague rumors or speculation about their plans?

Will BEIN Sports channel still televise WSBK in 2014? Comcast seems to have a shaky relationship with BEIN. They carried the channel this year but not in HD. Recently when I've tried to access the channel it doesn't seem available anymore. I believe the WSBK races were available live on the internet and presumably still will be, but I'm hping to get real big-screen HD broadcasts. Anybody know anything about the current and future coverage?

And what rounds will be in the US next year? I might make a road-trip to see that. One interesting thing about EBR's participation is they will probably not only bring many US fans to the sport, but Hero's involvement should bring some Indian interest. That could be as good for WSBK as it is for EBR and Hero.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=xl2lBDASWcA

Hughlysses
10-21-2013, 06:00 PM
Cycle News article up just now with some more details; there will be a SECOND team as well:

http://www.cyclenews.com/585/22511/Racing-Article/Geoff-May-And-EBR-To-World-Superbike.aspx

Classax
10-22-2013, 07:34 AM
I think it will be great as the Americans will be mentioned no matter where they place. If they race under EVO class they will be very competitive. Aprilia is a scooter company that buit a moto gp machine for the street which is why it wins. Everyone esle with the exception of Ducati builds street bikes, planes trains and automobiles and races sport bikes on the side. EBR has always been about building a great race bike that works on the street. The EVO class is about what factories sell instead of what teams with deep pockets can develop like WSBK and even AMA to a great extent. Too bad we couldn't get Josh Hayes or Nicky Haden or even Danny Eslik to get on board.

Scott
10-22-2013, 12:09 PM
Cycle News article up just now with some more details; there will be a SECOND team as well:

http://www.cyclenews.com/585/22511/Racing-Article/Geoff-May-And-EBR-To-World-Superbike.aspx

:thumb: Great find! By avoiding naming the second rider, isn't that as good as saying it won't be Aaron? I guess they could be hanging on to him as a default in case they don't find anyone else.

If they are going with a different rider, I hope someone in the AMA will pick Aaron up. It's a tough time to be a rider, but a good time to be in the market for a rider.

Scott
10-22-2013, 12:24 PM
It's interesting that he comments about the testing ban starting in December and the work they'll try to get in before then. We may be getting some reports from some warmer climate tracks soon that might give us a hint who the second rider will be.

Classax
10-22-2013, 03:27 PM
Looks like this pushed the boys at Bologna over the edge. The RX shot over the bow has been answered with http://www.motorcyclenews.com/MCN/News/newsresults/New-bikes/2013/October/oct2113-ducati-superleggera-officially-unveiled/ . That's definitely a bid to homulgate in to race a bike that will finally run at the front in WSBK. I still think RS is a better buy and The Perscription doubly so!

Classax
10-22-2013, 05:01 PM
[QUOTE=Scott;495]Will BEIN Sports channel still televise WSBK in 2014? Comcast seems to have a shaky relationship with BEIN. They carried the channel this year but not in HD. Recently when I've tried to access the channel it doesn't seem available anymore. I believe the WSBK races were available live on the internet and presumably still will be, but I'm hping to get real big-screen HD broadcasts. Anybody know anything about the current and future coverage?

And what rounds will be in the US next year? I might make a road-trip to see that. One interesting thing about EBR's participation is they will probably not only bring many US fans to the sport, but Hero's involvement should bring some Indian interest. That could be as good for WSBK as it is for EBR and Hero.QUOTE (http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=xl2lBDASWcA[/video][/QUOTE)]

I think it has alot to do with your region of the country. We get it fine hear in Texas but not in HD. Seeing that MotoGP is going to Indy and COTA and not Laguna next year I don't see Dorna passing on COTA. BIG track to really let the superbikes stretch their legs. Indy will be refurbished but not as challenging as COTA. I would road trip either way to see a EBR in WSBK.

Scott
10-23-2013, 03:45 PM
Looks like this pushed the boys at Bologna over the edge. The RX shot over the bow has been answered with http://www.motorcyclenews.com/MCN/News/newsresults/New-bikes/2013/October/oct2113-ducati-superleggera-officially-unveiled/ . That's definitely a bid to homulgate in to race a bike that will finally run at the front in WSBK. I still think RS is a better buy and The Perscription doubly so!

Wouldn't they have to sell something like 3000 a year? I think you need to be a lawyer to read and understand the rules, but I thought they were specifically designed to prevent companies from making very low volume, high cost bikes. http://www.superbikeplanet.com/2007/Sep/e/n070927d.htm






I think it has alot to do with your region of the country. We get it fine hear in Texas but not in HD. Seeing that MotoGP is going to Indy and COTA and not Laguna next year I don't see Dorna passing on COTA. BIG track to really let the superbikes stretch their legs. Indy will be refurbished but not as challenging as COTA. I would road trip either way to see a EBR in WSBK.

So you think they'll do COTA but nothing official has been announced yet? Am I interpreting correctly?

Classax
10-23-2013, 05:00 PM
FIM and Dorna rules seem to change with the weather. The way I understand its of the various models so between base, s, tri color, r and the super however you call it they have to hit 3000 units sold( shipped for sale) a year. They would still get to use the up version parts under EVO rules. Its the Ducati MOTO "It's not cheating if exploit the rules, only if you break them."

Yea I think COTA because its one of only a locations in the USA that meet ALL the facilities requirements they have for the tracks and with MOTOGP already going to be there, Dorna already having a relationship, and Indy being a big IF it seems like the logical choice. If it isn't I'd be shocked but nothing has been published yet.

Scott
10-24-2013, 05:52 AM
FIM and Dorna rules seem to change with the weather. The way I understand its of the various models so between base, s, tri color, r and the super however you call it they have to hit 3000 units sold( shipped for sale) a year. They would still get to use the up version parts under EVO rules. Its the Ducati MOTO "It's not cheating if exploit the rules, only if you break them."

Yea I think COTA because its one of only a locations in the USA that meet ALL the facilities requirements they have for the tracks and with MOTOGP already going to be there, Dorna already having a relationship, and Indy being a big IF it seems like the logical choice. If it isn't I'd be shocked but nothing has been published yet.

:thumb: Looks like a great track. As for the rules, they certainly kee[ claiming the goal is to keep costs down, so I hope they will do something to prevent what could be an escalating 'arms race'. To me. the attraction of Superbike over Moto GP is we get to see what bikes that are actually similar to what we can buy can do. I'd like to see them go more stock and hold some price caps so that teams are racing real bikes. And if they need more performance, they can work hard to find an inexpensive improvement to the street-bike. We win that way.

Doosh
10-24-2013, 11:00 AM
COTA is an amazing track. I was one of the lucky few "ordinary" people given an opportunity to ride it. It's an amazing facility.

Hughlysses
10-24-2013, 01:46 PM
Here's a link to a good article about EBR's WSB effort discussing the rules and particularly the production numbers required for homolgation. I'm guessing this means things are really going to be hopping in East Troy in just over a month:

http://www.asphaltandrubber.com/wsbk/erik-buell-racing-world-superbike-2014/

Classax
10-24-2013, 06:36 PM
I can't wait to find out what classes and riders.With BEIN Channel available hear now I was able to catch the last three rounds of WSBK on tv. So i'm going to beable to watch all season gain!! CBS sports also picked up AMA races for next year so that's another win. EBR have to get any testing done asap and deliver bikes to dealers before the end of the year if they want to pass inspection. There are some really good riders looking for rides right now and the Americans seem to prefer less traction control, big mid range bikes as part of their riding style. Couple of Haydens, and Eslik are all free agents right now. I say run the EVO class this year. As to who will run it in the AMA? Lot of young guns in Daytona class could easily come up? Maybe steal Filmore from KTM? 2014 is shaping up to be a most anticipated season.

Scott
10-26-2013, 09:02 PM
I wonder if there's any chance the new 250 cc Hero/EBR engine would go Moto3 racing. 250 seems a little small for me, but if it's a real performer a street-legal EBR 250 Moto3 bike could be really cool! Give it a kick-start, and I could be in love.:301:

Scott
10-27-2013, 01:06 PM
I've been seeing rumors that Jordan may be calling it quits in the AMA which opens up some interesting possibilities. The most obvious is that Danny Eslick may be available and likely interested in a WSBK spot. And Roger Hayden will also be available. But it also opens opportunities in the AMA and frees up non-rider talent. I'd love to see Hero/EBR sign Danny for WSBK, but if they could also find some more money somewhere, it would be great to see RS Racecraft with maybe a West/Hayden team and a better chance of a podium than they've had in the past.

Hughlysses
10-27-2013, 04:52 PM
I've been seeing rumors that Jordan may be calling it quits in the AMA which opens up some interesting possibilities. The most obvious is that Danny Eslick may be available and likely interested in a WSBK spot. And Roger Hayden will also be available. But it also opens opportunities in the AMA and frees up non-rider talent. I'd love to see Hero/EBR sign Danny for WSBK, but if they could also find some more money somewhere, it would be great to see RS Racecraft with maybe a West/Hayden team and a better chance of a podium than they've had in the past.

I haven't seen it confirmed in print but a lot of people claim it's a done deal.

I haven't heard if EBR plans to continue in AMA Superbike or not. I did see it someplace that RS Racecraft was selling off their EBR bikes, but that's just what somebody said.

Come to think of it- which EBR would/could they run in AMA next year, the 1190RS or the 1190RX?

Scott
10-27-2013, 06:33 PM
I haven't seen it confirmed in print but a lot of people claim it's a done deal.

I haven't heard if EBR plans to continue in AMA Superbike or not. I did see it someplace that RS Racecraft was selling off their EBR bikes, but that's just what somebody said.

Come to think of it- which EBR would/could they run in AMA next year, the 1190RS or the 1190RX?

I would assume they could run either (as long as EBR submits the RX for Homologation which I assume they will do in any case to make it as easy as possible for privateers). I believe the primary advantage of the RS for AMA is the suspension. The AMA rules are closer to stock than WSBK and I believe the stock suspension must be maintained (though I think the springs can be swapped out). WSBK on the other hand allows suspensions to be completely swapped out. Suspensions are a huge deal in racing.

Since Cory is an EBR employee, I suspect he may try to run and I expect EBR will support him in some small ways if they can. But if so, the effort will likely look much more like the original Geoff May box-truck effort than the more recent higher-budget efforts.

It would be a shame to not have at least some presence in the AMA, and Jordan's departure (along with EBR) will make the series more accessible to lower budget efforts.

Scott
10-27-2013, 06:52 PM
Come to think of it, going as far back as the '90s, there have been Buells involved in the AMA. From the days of Battle of the Twins through Formula X-Treme with bored out XB's and then the controversial XB-RR and, of course Danny Eslick and the break-through (though still controversial) 1125R in Sportbike.

Then, if I remember correctly, Walt Sipp and Shawn Higbee took the 1125 into Superbike and Taylor Knapp and Cory West made strong, factory supported efforts on the 1125RR just prior to the shut-down.

Then Geoff was the first EBR rider and I believe Shawn Higbee rode as many races as he could that first year.

So as exciting as it is to see EBR make the leap to WSBK, there would also be a sad end to an era if 2014 is the first year with no Buell or EBR presence.

Classax
10-27-2013, 08:29 PM
Wow isn't Jordan a title sponsor with National Guard?!?! CBS has already picked up all the races for TV for 2014, I would be amazed to see them leave just when the national press exposure finally arrives. I know there are more plans to see the jumpman in NASCAR, but didn't know they would leave the AMA. I really would be shocked to see EBR in WSBK and not AMA. If the Prescription is as or more competitive than the RS out of the box, I wouldn't be surprised to see more teams take it on. If JMS leaves the series I don't see EBR/Hero filling that void. If it the stars aligned and Eslik and Hayden were in need of rides, I could see a Hayden/May team in WSBK and an Eslik/West team in AMA. No knock to the other riders, but the PR for a new Hayden on the world stage would be too good to pass up. If teams with tight budgets are going to run the Prescription, they are going to have to liquidate their current equipment, so don't know what to think of RS Racecraft selling the RS. If I am Erik Buell, I'm on a plane talking to Francis Batta trying to convince Alstare to campaign with the Prescription since the Panigale was not competitive at all, and is a total loss on even minor crashes. That would be HUGE!!http://www.worldsbk.com/en/news/5-sbk-news/18917-ducati-and-alstare-end-their-partnership.html

As far as which bike in AMA, EBR is only building 35 RS this year, the rules state they have to build 100 per calender year and it must be less that 40K. That leads me to believe the RX the machine going forward. I don't see the suspension as issue in AMA BPF are performing well, and they can have their pick from that approved list in WSBK. They'll run what everyone else does.

Man 2014 is going to be an amazing year.

Scott
10-28-2013, 05:32 AM
If it the stars aligned and Eslik and Hayden were in need of rides, I could see a Hayden/May team in WSBK and an Eslik/West team in AMA.
That would be great, but I doubt the money's there, and EBR will have as much trouble as anyone else attracting a new, deep-pocketed sponsor. As for Hayden vs, Eslick, Eslick's experience on the bike could be invaluable and even though Hayden may be a better rider on paper, Eslick may be a better fit on the bike. I wouldn't be surprised if both are testing with EBR soon. And then there's the question of other WSBK riders. Could a Max Neukircher (for example) be a better choice than either Eslick or Hayden?

Hughlysses
10-28-2013, 06:27 AM
Notice Erik himself wasn't anywhere to be seen at the AIMExpo. That seems pretty odd given what a big deal the release of the bike was. Perhaps he's been out talking to potential riders?

On a somewhat related note, I noticed a post from a European Buell group on Facebook yesterday that regarding Buell's 30th anniversary in November:

135

It sure seems like EBR wouldn't let that date go unnoticed. Who knows- maybe Erik's getting ready for another big announcement or something?

Scott
10-28-2013, 09:13 AM
It sure seems like EBR wouldn't let that date go unnoticed. Who knows- maybe Erik's getting ready for another big announcement or something?


Is there a specific date? If so, would it be when he first started planning to build the RW750, or when he welded the first two frame sections, or when he started it up for the first time, or when he raced it for the first time, when he filed for incorporation? I would guess that if you asked Erik himself, he would have a hard time saying what day Buell actually started. So that group can probably use whatever date they choose. :wink:

Classax
10-29-2013, 05:35 AM
Man its official http://www.roadracingworld.com/news/national-guard-ends-sponsorship-jordan-motorsports-out-of-ama-pro-superbike/ .Loosing National Guard is a big blow. I thought sure the two year TV deal with CBS would attract more sponsors. MJ wants to get into NASCAR. Eslick has had troubles off track but he can RIDE the 1190 and we all know Hayden can run the pace if the equipment stays together. Come on HERO pick up Eslick for AMA and send Rodger to WSBK.

Hughlysses
10-29-2013, 07:03 AM
I wonder if this isn't a result of the current budget mess in Washington. DOD is still operating under "sequestration" which resulted in automatic, across-the-board budget cuts. Maybe the National Guard suddenly doesn't have the money necessary to sponsor something like this.

It does seem like the series is in trouble if another big sponsor can't be found quickly.

Scott
10-29-2013, 08:58 AM
I wonder if this isn't a result of the current budget mess in Washington. DOD is still operating under "sequestration" which resulted in automatic, across-the-board budget cuts. Maybe the National Guard suddenly doesn't have the money necessary to sponsor something like this.

It does seem like the series is in trouble if another big sponsor can't be found quickly.

I remember something maybe a year ago when some politicians were complaining about military sponsorships (I think it was specifically related to Nascar), and I remember at the time thinking that the AMA and Jordan sponsorships could be in jeopardy.

I'm sure that even if the money is there, it doesn't look right spending money on things like Nascar and AMA when people are getting laid off, so it was almost inevitable and hopefully the AMA was considering contingencies.

I definitely think they're in trouble, but if they keep pluggin away, I think they'll survive. If I were the AMA, I'd be trying to keep EBR there in at least some capacity. I think an American bike raises a lot of people's interest.

Doosh
10-29-2013, 04:26 PM
I think an American bike raises a lot of people's interest.

I don't. In my race club of 600+ members, I am the only one campaigning a Buell.

Classax
10-29-2013, 05:08 PM
I don't. In my race club of 600+ members, I am the only one campaigning a Buell.

I think we need a separate AMA( if there is still going to be one) thread.

Buells have never before been on level ground with the big four from a racing, manufacturing or value standpoint. They have always handled well but the truth is they never had competitive power. 1125r vs 600s for example in Daytona years ago. Buell have always been GREAT street bikes. With the 1190RS and RX we see a machine that can compete as a racer, quality, and power with the big four and the boutiques. Racing cost money and here to fore you had to spend way more money to get a Buell on the grid. There simply are cheaper options. Not necessarily better, just cheaper. You don't see many RSV4's club racing either. Heck you don't even seem them in Super Stock 1000. Not many RC8R either. They cost more to get on the grid than a GSXR1CBRR-ZX. Both of those are stellar bikes. Ducati has bravado but I believe the RX plus the EBR story will make for great press. If the bike is a top ten finisher every race, it will be mentioned every race, If we have a rider who is a big personality and daring on track it will be pandemonium.

Doosh
10-29-2013, 09:15 PM
They have always handled well but the truth is they never had competitive power. 1125r vs 600s for example in Daytona years ago.

I'm not sure I would universally agree. At least in DSB, the opposite was the case. The 1125r probably made the most power (just barely), but was heavy and lumbersome compared to the 600cc bikes. Only Eslick ever rode one especially successfully, and he also won the class on a 600.


With the 1190RS and RX we see a machine that can compete as a racer, quality, and power with the big four and the boutiques. Racing cost money and here to fore you had to spend way more money to get a Buell on the grid. There simply are cheaper options. Not necessarily better, just cheaper.

Again, I'm not sure I would agree. I certainly prefer to race a Buell. And, I prefer twins. But twins are down on power compared to inline 4 bikes, even given the concessions for displacement given to them. In the CMRA, the 1125r is permitted in the "B" classes, alongside 750cc multis and other 1,000cc twins. The 1125r is completely uncompetitive in superstock trim, largely because of the brakes and weight of the machine, and reasonably competitive in superbike trim where a DSB-spec built motor helps make up for other deficiencies, and the issues with the OEM brake and chassis can be corrected. I am generally racing in the various heavyweight classes, where the 1125r is at a huge disadvantage in stock trim on power, on brakes, on all kinds of things.

I think the 1190's competitiveness remains to be seen. Certainly a lot of the shortcomings of the 1125r have been corrected, but the ZX-10 and BMW are serious machines, and won't be easy to beat.


You don't see many RSV4's club racing either. Heck you don't even seem them in Super Stock 1000. Not many RC8R either. They cost more to get on the grid than a GSXR1CBRR-ZX. Both of those are stellar bikes. Ducati has bravado but I believe the RX plus the EBR story will make for great press. If the bike is a top ten finisher every race, it will be mentioned every race, If we have a rider who is a big personality and daring on track it will be pandemonium.

For what it's worth, I can think of at least 5 RSV4 machines in the CMRA, 4 RC8 machines, countless Ducati and of course a tsunami of Japanese hardware. I remain the only EBR...

And, at least for now, the 1190 isn't a good club choice. One, it's not available until January, and two, none of the race stuff you need for it to make it race legal is broadly available yet. Someone like me that can refashion EBR parts from the 1125 kit like a race legal bellypan -- sure, I can get one on the track -- but it will be a season or so before the RX is a really good club choice, IMHO.

None of the tuners know the platform yet, either. At least in the CMRA, I'd be the only one with starting point numbers, and I'll probably be rookie expert next year. I can feel the season of DFL coming my way...

I'm not trying to be a total downer here, but let's keep this in proper perspective. It's going to take a bit for the bike to catch on. Let's hope it does!

Classax
10-29-2013, 10:28 PM
Doosh I may have spoken too glowingly there. I completely agree with you. Especially with regard to the 1125r. I was speaking about in the WSBK series. I have a good friend who races and RSV4 in CMRA and their are several strong RC8R's. From what I saw of the few races I've seen the RS on the track in WERA( just 4 times,)it appeared to be on par in terms of power. I have always found Buell to handle like a bike half a class down, way better than a 1K but not quite as well as a 600. Yes it will take at least a season for the go fast goodies to trickle down to the club crowd. But then again maybe not since EBR is now a major supplier of those parts. I don't think the factory effort in WSBK will run last based on what we have seen in the AMA but yes its going to be a long hard road!

Scott
10-30-2013, 07:56 AM
I don't. In my race club of 600+ members, I am the only one campaigning a Buell.

Buells have always been a hard fit in racing. They don't fit nicely into the racing classes and are underpowered against the heavyweights and people feel like they're 'cheater bikes' against the 600's. They were also produced in very small numbers vs. the competition and now that they're defunct, I'm sure few people want to buy one to race. It's a lot easier and cheaper to race an R6 than a Buell. But that's Buell and we're talking about EBR which hasn't even started yet. I'm sure that when the RX's start becoming available people will be taking them to the track.

But I wasn't talking about Buell and I wasn't talking about club-racing. I was talking about EBR and the AMA.

The AMA needs to get people interested in the races. Who do people root for and why? I like twins and when I used to watch the old AMA races before the Buell or EBR were factors, I rooted for the Ducatis (when they were running) because I wanted to see something different than the same-old, same-old Japanese inline 4s.

Having an American bike competing in an American racing series gives viewers something to be interested in and root for. Next time you go to an AMA race, take a look around. One thing that I always find interesting is how many Harley riders show up. Who are they rooting for? If there's an EBR out there, I'd bet a lot of them would be rooting for it.

The AMA needs to do many things to get new viewers and keep the ones they have. An American bike would be one of 50 things they need to do to bring more fans, but I think it's one of the bigger things.

Doosh
10-30-2013, 08:25 AM
The AMA needs to do many things to get new viewers and keep the ones they have. An American bike would be one of 50 things they need to do to bring more fans, but I think it's one of the bigger things.

I'm still not sure I agree. Motorcycle racing is just not popular in America as a sport. Bowling gets better ratings on TV.

Classax
10-30-2013, 09:34 AM
I'm still not sure I agree. Motorcycle racing is just not popular in America as a sport. Bowling gets better ratings on TV.

I have to agree to disagree with you on that one. People are interested in RACING not the parading the sport has become. The races in superbike have been boring at the front and scrappy mid pack, CBS did a much better job of capturing that this year than in the past. You can't run Motorcycle racing like NASCAR, the fans and the sport and the experience at the races are too different. This is the mistake AMA seems to keep making. hmm only 1125r in CMRA, I've see you race, aren't you the points leader for heavy twins novice?

Doosh
10-30-2013, 09:47 AM
hmm only 1125r in CMRA, I've see you race, aren't you the points leader for heavy twins novice?

Novice Champion :)

Scott
10-30-2013, 11:18 AM
I'm still not sure I agree. Motorcycle racing is just not popular in America as a sport. Bowling gets better ratings on TV.

I wouldn't argue that point at all, but I think it could be more popular with the right management and promotion. The new TV package was a huge step in the right direction but the lack of coverage of the last round was a screw-up of epic proportions.

IF they could have 12 solid rounds and IF they had live coverage (plus replays through the week) of each of those rounds and IF MJ and EBR stayed , I think they could begin to build enough of an audience from the millions of riders in this country (and people who don't ride but would enjoy it if they watched a few rounds). And if the audience could grow some, more sponsorship dollars would come in and I believe it would be sustainable.

Unfortunately we already know that most of those things won't happen. EBR and MJ are done. They're struggling to find venues and we have no guarantee some venues won't, again, screw up the coverage.

I live in Jersey and the Jersey round is crazy popular. I honestly have no idea why and I frankly suspect the AMA management doesn't know why, but it just shows the potential is there.

But the series has been poorly managed since long before DMG, so it's not surprising it's never really gotten going.

Scott
10-30-2013, 11:20 AM
Novice Champion :)


:thumb:

Classax
10-31-2013, 08:57 PM
Anyone else find it odd that we haven't heard of any reports of EBR testing anywhere? Sykes has been testing for two days straight.

Scott
11-02-2013, 10:37 AM
Anyone else find it odd that we haven't heard of any reports of EBR testing anywhere? Sykes has been testing for two days straight. Geoff May says he's going to be at Road Atlanta on Nov. 9th, but I'm sure some things are quietly happening with little fanfare. It will be interesting to see if anyone else is riding an EBR on the 9th with Geoff.

mackja
11-03-2013, 02:38 PM
I will be riding with STT on Sunday at Road Atlanta also, I keep and eye out for any other EBR riders ;-)

Scott
11-03-2013, 04:17 PM
I will be riding with STT on Sunday at Road Atlanta also, I keep and eye out for any other EBR riders ;-)
:thumb: Awesome! Get us some photos of Geoff and anybody else who's there.

mackja
11-10-2013, 07:43 PM
Talked with Geoff at RA, he was there with his 2012 B bike with a stock RS engine, doing some durability testing. While STT has some fast riders, some AMA pros, Geoff was flying around RA, damn he is FAST!!

Scott
11-11-2013, 01:40 PM
Talked with Geoff at RA, he was there with his 2012 B bike with a stock RS engine, doing some durability testing. While STT has some fast riders, some AMA pros, Geoff was flying around RA, damn he is FAST!!

:thumb:

I'm assuming he didn't spill any beans regarding upcoming plans beyond what we already know.

mackja
11-11-2013, 05:41 PM
Nope, did not offer any additional info. He did tell me that they are still working out some final details on vendors for the 1190rx, mentioned that Brembo has been working on the ZTL brake system, which will include a new rotor. So sounds like the rx will have a Brembo supplied ZTL brake system instead of Nissin. Bikes should start to arrive to dealers by January, which is good, I want to have mine no later than March.

Doosh
11-13-2013, 09:07 AM
mentioned that Brembo has been working on the ZTL brake system, which will include a new rotor. So sounds like the rx will have a Brembo supplied ZTL brake system instead of Nissin.

Very interesting. The existing EBR brake system has evolved tremendously from what was delivered on the 1125r, but racing with it still means doing some unusual modifications. I will be very curious to see what is delivered on the RX.

Classax
11-26-2013, 11:56 AM
Anyone esle find it odd that their have been no reports of them testing anywhere? The winter testing ban is almost upon us and as of yet no one has heard who will be the second rider and no one has seen them testing. I have never tried it but, I don't think you can learn a track via XBOX. Shocked they aren't testing on track anywhere.

Classax
11-26-2013, 11:53 PM
Heard Geoff May on Pit Pass Radio tonight. He indicated that the second rider will likely be Aaron Yates and they will begin testing in Spain in earnest after January. Yates is not a done deal yet but that the contract talks were underway.

Scott
11-27-2013, 11:06 AM
Heard Geoff May on Pit Pass Radio tonight. He indicated that the second rider will likely be Aaron Yates and they will begin testing in Spain in earnest after January. Yates is not a done deal yet but that the contract talks were underway.

I was just listening to that. Another interesting bit is he indicated they would probably maintain a presence with at least one rider in AMA (I'd presume that's Cory West, but I guess we'll see). While the AMA has problems, Cory or another EBR rider could be more competitive without Eslick, Hayden, May and Yates there (though maybe Hayden and Eslick will find rides - a West/Eslick team would be cool if they could find a sponser.)

Classax
11-27-2013, 11:22 AM
I was just listening to that. Another interesting bit is he indicated they would probably maintain a presence with at least one rider in AMA (I'd presume that's Cory West, but I guess we'll see). While the AMA has problems, Cory or another EBR rider could be more competitive without Eslick, Hayden, May and Yates there (though maybe Hayden and Eslick will find rides - a West/Eslick team would be cool if they could find a sponser.)

Eslick on the EBR is magic! I really wish EBR can find a way to see an Eslick/Hayden combo. Sending Rodger to WSBK would have been better for the brand. Yates and May are great development riders but really aren't on the pace or agressive enough as RACERS(compared to the competition). They are both clean blue collar type guys with not much flash or pinash. To me we need a rider on the world stage who can win fans even if he doesn't win races. Hayden dropped a top 10 finish at Mazda last year as a wild card. The EBR suits his riding style better. If its Cory West in the AMA for EBR, he will be chasing Knapp and Filmore on the KTM's not because they have better bikes, they just have more pace as riders.

Scott
11-27-2013, 07:36 PM
Eslick on the EBR is magic! I really which EBR can find a way to see an Eslick/Hayden combo. Sending Rodger to WSBK would have been better for the brand. Yates and May are great development riders but really aren't on the pace or agressive enough as RACERS(compared to the competition). They are both clean blue collar type guys with not much flash or pinash. To me we need a rider on the world stage who can win fans even if he doesn't win races. Hayden dropped a top 10 finish at Mazda last year as a wild card. The EBR suits his riding style better. If its Cory West in the AMA for EBR, he will be chasing Knapp and Filmore on the KTM's not because they have better bikes, they just have more pace as riders.

Let me preface this by saying I'm 95% sure Geoff was saying they'll probably sign Aaron, but his wording was very interesting.

"Most likely you'll see the same teammate I had before."

Couldn't that statement apply to Eslick as well as Yates?:wink:

Classax
12-06-2013, 11:41 AM
Well it appears it will be the team of May and Yates after all. http://www.asphaltandrubber.com/wsbk/aaron-yates-geoff-may-world-superbike-erik-buell-racing/ Doesn't llok like they are planning run as EVO either. Best of fortunes to you gents. Keep it shiny side up, on the course and above all finish in front of the Panigales and MV F4's every race!

Classax
01-17-2014, 10:16 PM
Look like the first test of the season will go down at Almeria on January 25 and 26th! Then they'll test again down under the week of the season opener. Suit up guys and gals its time to go racing! This information courtesy of Mr. Geoff May!

Classax
01-19-2014, 01:31 AM
http://www.roadracingworld.com/news/dorna-wsbk-issues-statement-on-possible-bimota-homologation-ebr-says-they-are-ready-to-go/One step closer as homologation inspections appear to be taking place next week. I'm curious as to how FIM is going to handle Bimota though as one could argue that EBR is an equally small niche manufacturer.

mackja
01-30-2014, 08:54 PM
Stupid Bike Planet has reported that EBR has passed homologation to race in WSBK.

Classax
01-31-2014, 06:21 AM
Stupid Bike Planet has reported that EBR has passed homologation to race in WSBK.
No that can't be right. They have "professional moto journalist" over there and they keep reporting on "Buell" which is not affiliated with EBR :deadhorse_1: No seriously that is wonderful news even if the source is a bit suspect.

Classax
02-14-2014, 09:33 AM
http://www.twinmotorcycles.nl/artikelen.asp?cid=12&aid=443 EBR makes its official International Pre Race Debut in Hero's homeland of India. I notice the race bike is using the same foot pegs as the 1190RX. I sort of wish the RX instrument display was the same size and shape as on the race bike and RS. On the track all I really want to know is RPMS, and Gear Poistion. And those I need to be able to see and read in a spit second glance. The MV F3 800 may as well not have a dash, everything is so small. The traction control light is ok but generally my head and eyes are not avail to glance at the intrusments during the most likely time for it to be activiated. Overall not much visually different from the WSBK to the RX.

Scott
02-17-2014, 06:15 AM
Does anyone know when the races will actually be aired? I was trying to set my DVR but couldn't find it. I found something at 10:45 Friday evening, but that can't be right even with the time difference, can it?

Classax
02-17-2014, 09:32 AM
Does anyone know when the races will actually be aired? I was trying to set my DVR but couldn't find it. I found something at 10:45 Friday evening, but that can't be right even with the time difference, can it?

Nope they are going to air it live, so with the time difference that puts it at Friday night our time.


On another note, apparently testing isn't going so well with both bikes suffering engine problems and well off the pace.( 8 seconds) But I'm sure they will get it sorted by Friday.

Scott
02-17-2014, 09:50 AM
Nope they are going to air it live, so with the time difference that puts it at Friday night our time.


On another note, apparently testing isn't going so well with both bikes suffering engine problems and well off the pace.( 8 seconds) But I'm sure they will get it sorted by Friday.

Thanks! If it should be Friday night, then what I'm seeing at 10:45 is probably it. I was just thinking it would be Saturday night rather than Friday night, but the whole international date thing is probably screwing me up.

And, yeah, 8 seconds is a pretty big gap, but that's why they're there. They certainly won't be on the podium this weekend, but hopefully they will be making steady progress.

Doosh
02-17-2014, 10:13 AM
And, yeah, 8 seconds is a pretty big gap, but that's why they're there. They certainly won't be on the podium this weekend, but hopefully they will be making steady progress.

This ain't the AMA. They need a full season or TWO to start running mid-pack. I, too, want it sooner and I'm pulling for them, but let's just be proud they made the show. May and Yates are very talented riders, but they wouldn't likely do better than mid-pack on top tier machinery. The team has a lot of disadvantages: new bike, new team, new tracks, new race series, riders new to the series, etc.

They jumped into the deep end and need time to develop.

Hughlysses
02-17-2014, 10:10 PM
Apparently they already cut 3 seconds off those initial lap times (per a post at Badweb).

Classax
02-18-2014, 05:06 AM
The leaders are running 1'30's which is on track to shatter the track record from the race set last year. There is no way you go out and run that kind of pace on a bike AND tire combination you have never ridden on a track you've never seen before. Yet May and Yates are 4 and 6 seconds respectively, off the track record after a grand total of 3 two hour sessions on the bikes ever. This against teams who with the exception of two had already done two winter testing sessions prior to this. I don't see the leaders going more than a few tenths faster when the green flag drops, but I think the EBR guys are smartly building pace. They trimmed 3 seconds off their times from their first ever session to session 4 yesterday. They will continue to gain confidence and familiarity with the bike, tires, and track and be mid pack when the checker is waving.

Scott
02-18-2014, 10:03 AM
I had been hoping for a 15th place finish. That might be tough based on the current numbers (I was a little disappointed that, while they made good progress from Monday to Tuesday, they didn't seem to gain any speed from Tuesday Morning to Tuesday Afternoon (cue Moody Blues).

I expect they'll gain some more ground before race-time, but I still think it will be a struggle for them.

DrogeN_Omen
02-18-2014, 01:20 PM
"The EBR bikes of Erik Buell Racing made some progress, Aaron Yates not improving his time by much, but Geoff May taking big strides forward since Monday. May remains over 4.5 seconds behind Sykes, though, signalling that there is still much work to do on the EBR 1190RX."

http://www.motomatters.com/results/2014/02/18/2014_world_superbikes_phillip_island_tes.html

Day 2 times:


Pos
No
Rider
Bike
Time
Diff
Prev


1
1
Tom Sykes
Kawasaki ZX-10R
1:30.239




2
22
Alex Lowes
Suzuki GSX-R1000
1:30.528
0.289
0.289


3
33
Marco Melandri
Aprilia RSV4
1:30.579
0.340
0.051


4
34
Davide Giugliano
Ducati Panigale 1199R
1:30.644
0.405
0.065


5
50
Sylvain Guintoli
Aprilia RSV4
1:30.766
0.527
0.122


6
58
Eugene Laverty
Suzuki GSX-R1000
1:30.767
0.528
0.001


7
91
Leon Haslam
Honda CBR1000RR
1:30.798
0.559
0.031


8
65
Jonathan Rea
Honda CBR1000RR
1:30.813
0.574
0.015


9
76
Loris Baz
Kawasaki ZX-10R
1:30.900
0.661
0.087


10
7
Chaz Davies
Ducati Panigale 1199R
1:31.087
0.848
0.187


11
59
Niccolò Canepa
Ducati Panigale 1199R EVO
1:31.373
1.134
0.286


12
24
Toni Elias
Aprilia RSV4
1:31.441
1.202
0.068


13
44
David Salom
Kawasaki ZX-10R EVO
1:32.008
1.769
0.567


14
9
Fabien Foret
Kawasaki ZX-10R EVO
1:32.780
2.541
0.772


15
32
Sheridan Morais
Kawasaki ZX-10R EVO
1:32.895
2.656
0.115


16
11
Jeremy Guarnoni
Kawasaki ZX-10R EVO
1:32.897
2.658
0.002


17
21
Alessandro Andreozzi
Kawasaki ZX-10R EVO
1:33.205
2.966
0.308


18
71
Claudio Corti
MV Agusta F4 RR
1:33.547
3.308
0.342


19
10
Imre Toth
BMW S1000 RR
1:34.750
4.511
1.203


20

99
Geoff May

EBR 1190 RX
1:34.807
4.568
0.057


21
23
Luca Scassa
Kawasaki ZX-10R EVO
1:35.657
5.418
0.850


22

20
Aaron Yates
EBR 1190 RX
1:36.662
6.423
1.005


23
52
Sylvain Barrier
BMW S1000 RR EVO
No time set


24
56
Peter Sebestyen
BMW S1000 RR EVO
No time set


25
84
Michel Fabrizio
Kawasaki ZX-10R EVO
No time set

DrogeN_Omen
02-18-2014, 01:21 PM
Combined times from both days of testing:


Pos
No
Rider
Bike
Combined
Diff
Prev


1
1
Tom Sykes
Kawasaki ZX-10R
1:30.239




2
58
Eugene Laverty
Suzuki GSX-R1000
1:30.513
0.274
0.274


3
22
Alex Lowes
Suzuki GSX-R1000
1:30.528
0.289
0.015


4
33
Marco Melandri
Aprilia RSV4
1:30.579
0.340
0.051


5
34
Davide Giugliano
Ducati Panigale 1199R
1:30.644
0.405
0.065


6
76
Loris Baz
Kawasaki ZX-10R
1:30.757
0.518
0.113


7
50
Sylvain Guintoli
Aprilia RSV4
1:30.766
0.527
0.009


8
91
Leon Haslam
Honda CBR1000RR
1:30.798
0.559
0.032


9
65
Jonathan Rea
Honda CBR1000RR
1:30.813
0.574
0.015


10
7
Chaz Davies
Ducati Panigale 1199R
1:31.087
0.848
0.274


11
59
Niccolò Canepa
Ducati Panigale 1199R EVO
1:31.373
1.134
0.286


12
24
Toni Elias
Aprilia RSV4
1:31.441
1.202
0.068


13
44
David Salom
Kawasaki ZX-10R EVO
1:32.008
1.769
0.567


14
9
Fabien Foret
Kawasaki ZX-10R EVO
1:32.780
2.541
0.772


15
71
Claudio Corti
MV Agusta F4 RR
1:32.858
2.619
0.078


16
32
Sheridan Morais
Kawasaki ZX-10R EVO
1:32.895
2.656
0.037


17
11
Jeremy Guarnoni
Kawasaki ZX-10R EVO
1:32.897
2.658
0.002


18
52
Sylvain Barrier
BMW S1000 RR EVO
1:32.997
2.758
0.100


19
21
Alessandro Andreozzi
Kawasaki ZX-10R EVO
1:33.205
2.966
0.208


20
23
Luca Scassa
Kawasaki ZX-10R EVO
1:33.960
3.721
0.755


21
84
Michel Fabrizio
Kawasaki ZX-10R EVO
1:34.314
4.075
0.354


22
10
Imre Toth
BMW S1000 RR
1:34.750
4.511
0.436


23

99
Geoff May
EBR 1190 RX
1:34.807
4.568
0.057


24
20
Aaron Yates
EBR 1190 RX
1:36.662
6.423
1.855


25
56
Peter Sebestyen
BMW S1000 RR EVO
1:42.242
12.003
5.580

Ed / AF1 Racing
02-18-2014, 03:04 PM
here are some pics I got sent...

Hughlysses
02-19-2014, 07:54 AM
Good article on their efforts at Phillip Island:

http://www.crash.net/wsbk/news/200384/1/progress-made-as-erik-buell-racing-debuts.html

Doosh
02-19-2014, 08:38 AM
An unflattering reality check: http://www.superbikeplanet.com/2014/Feb/140218pws.htm

Classax
02-19-2014, 10:13 AM
I think we/ everyone is making too much of them being off the pace. The riders are new to the track, the bikes are capable of speeds in excess of what they have run as we have seen this in AMA guise. New bikes, new fuel, new tires, up against guys who all with exception of two, have already had 2 or 3 shake down sessions prior to this. Not to mention the fact that they are pushing the lap record pace at the front. I will be disappointed with a dead last by nearly 2 minutes finish but for having only run the bikes in current form for what would be the 4th time, It will be better than a DNF and even more so than a DNS. The problem with the media is they tend to be hard of hearing and yet manage to sensationalize everything. No one in the EBR HERO camp is expecting to run in the front. They have stated that repeatedly. Mid pack puts them in the low 1:32's which I think is doable with more practice time on the track and feeling out the bikes. The one thing we can't have is for them to crash or blow up the bikes and throw oil and smoke all over the track midrace, otherwise collect your data, go home and get better.

I notice no one has mentioned that the EVO 1199 is is mere 3 10ths slower than the Factory Superbike. Where are the prediction of doom for the Bologna specials?

Hughlysses
02-19-2014, 10:47 AM
SBP has had an apparent grudge against Buell for years. I don't think I have ever read one positive comment about anything Erik Buell has accomplished on that site. You'll notice that the article at crash.net presented basically the same facts, yet SBP managed to put a negative spin on the whole effort while sounding as snide and condensending as humanly possible.

Eff them and the horse they rode in on. :flipa:

Doosh
02-19-2014, 11:08 AM
The Superbike Planet article shows obvious bias, but the facts are the same... they are way off the pace, and way down on top speed.

I never expected them to do well. And, honestly believe it's a couple of seasons before they are mid-pack. I've said that just making the show -- the first American company to ever do so -- is accomplishment in itself.

Buell/EBR fans tend to see the world with rather rose colored glasses. The reality is, Buells were never competitive until the 1125r, and the EBR needs the kind of natural race program development *any* new bike and new team to WSBK requires for it to be competitive.

Classax
02-19-2014, 11:10 AM
http://cyclenews.uberflip.com/i/262687 The article on the woes of the Panigale superbike effort really illustrates what the EBR team is up against campaigning a twin. We know that Erik designed the RS/RX cooling system to support the motor putting out as much as 230bhp. Even if they were to get this out of the RX motors which I doubt, they'd still be down 10hp to the I4 who have auto blip downshifting and engine maps that let them pretend to be twins in the corners. They are also stuck with stock gearing and the point about going into tracks with set up data from the previous years being a huge advanatage, illustrates what the team is trying to overcome. I get the impression that the bikes are more RS than RX with additional RX DNA parts on the way. As for SBP... it won't be long before they are eating their words.

Scott
02-19-2014, 02:00 PM
Here's a way to put a positive spin on it: "In their very first practice session in WSBK ever, EBR was less than 2 seconds off the top BMW and dead even with the 2nd BMW." If I had suggested such a thing a couple years ago, heck, a couple weeks ago how many of us would have thought that was great?

Most motorcycle companies (*cough* Harley *cough*) wouldn't have the balls to get out there and would fail miserably if they tried. If they can make it through this weekend even close to some of the much more experienced bikes and riders, that will be a solid starting point.

Classax
02-19-2014, 03:39 PM
I think we will see improvements between now and race 1 and certainly by race 2. How can you be down 11% in top speed and only 4.4% slower (give or take) per lap than record at a track like Phillip Island? Its a really fast flowing track. I think they have some real issues to overcome but they aren't that far from the goal either.

Doosh
02-19-2014, 04:45 PM
Here's a way to put a positive spin on it: "In their very first practice session in WSBK ever, EBR was less than 2 seconds off the top BMW and dead even with the 2nd BMW." If I had suggested such a thing a couple years ago, heck, a couple weeks ago how many of us would have thought that was great?

Oh, I could believe that. How many laps is this race? Do the math.

The thing is, even single hundredths off the pace results in a race that's not even close visually. At 186MPH, you are moving roughly 2 feet every hundredth of a second. Add that up over 20-30 laps and in a race distance that's absolutely huge.

So, while 2 seconds doesn't seem like much, the gap actually needs to be in the thousandths to be a "photo finish", and that's just for one lap! The accumulation of gap over the race distance will be significant.

If the race leaders are running 1:30s, and EBR is off the pace by 4 seconds, one must anticipate the possibility they will be lapped. I don't know the race distance, but this isn't hard to calculate.

I'm absolutely excited EBR is in WSBK -- I think it's what they need to do to develop that bike -- but let's be honest with ourselves this inaugural season about realistic outcomes. And, certainly, don't expect a bias press who's job is to appeal to the majority to sell ads to give much notice to a tiny sliver of a market share boutique like EBR just yet.

Scott
02-20-2014, 08:57 AM
Oh, I could believe that. How many laps is this race? Do the math.

The thing is, even single hundredths off the pace results in a race that's not even close visually. At 186MPH, you are moving roughly 2 feet every hundredth of a second. Add that up over 20-30 laps and in a race distance that's absolutely huge.

So, while 2 seconds doesn't seem like much, the gap actually needs to be in the thousandths to be a "photo finish", and that's just for one lap! The accumulation of gap over the race distance will be significant.

If the race leaders are running 1:30s, and EBR is off the pace by 4 seconds, one must anticipate the possibility they will be lapped. I don't know the race distance, but this isn't hard to calculate.

I'm absolutely excited EBR is in WSBK -- I think it's what they need to do to develop that bike -- but let's be honest with ourselves this inaugural season about realistic outcomes. And, certainly, don't expect a bias press who's job is to appeal to the majority to sell ads to give much notice to a tiny sliver of a market share boutique like EBR just yet.

Sure. Absolutely. But you're focusing on the question: "How far behind of the competition are they?" and I am trying to find a silver lining after a disappointing first practice session and looking at the question: "How far ahead of realistic expectations, based on history, are they?"

I'm going back to the last days of Buell when the highest performance bike they had was the 1125R and that bike would not have been able to show up on a WSBK track. Then Buell got shut down and the idea of an American Superbike that would ever be able to run with the top bikes seemed like something that would never happen.

Now just a few years later we've got EBR slapping their balls on the line and putting bikes into a series that, by any logical rational thinking, they have absolutely no place being.

So I'm just trying to get over my initial, emotional disappointment at seeing they're not even close and trying to look at it from a broader, more rational perspective.

And while some might be quick to say: "The bike can't do it. They need to go back to the drawing board." I think we can dismiss that notion when we look at the fact that they are working with a bike that hasn't yet been developed with WSBK rules in mind and the team has never worked together on a track the riders have never seen.

When I look at the BMW's - bikes that are clearly up to the task - and see that they aren't dramatically outperforming the EBRs (and, sure, BMW is no longer doing a factory effort, but the teams and riders are still skilled professionals ), that tells me that the bike is giving them a solid platform to build on. As the team learns the riders and bikes and as the riders learn the tracks and as the bikes are developed for the series, this team will find it much easier to shave time off than the top riders who are already operating at a high level.

So sure, they're going to be pretty far back this weekend, but as a fan, that's no reason to jump off a ledge. I'm just going to watch and enjoy the baby steps and figure an 18th place in WSBK is cooler than a podium in AMA - particularly considering how it will help them build for the future.

Doosh
02-20-2014, 09:13 AM
And while some might be quick to say: "The bike can't do it. They need to go back to the drawing board." I think we can dismiss that notion when we look at the fact that they are working with a bike that hasn't yet been developed with WSBK rules in mind and the team has never worked together on a track the riders have never seen.

I've never suggested that. I've suggested the EBR team simply needs the same kind of time and experience other teams have required when campaigning a debut WSBK effort. It's going to be a couple of seasons before the the EBR is running mid-pack.

I think we are close to the same page, but I can't help but look at it in terms of overall competitiveness, because that's the objective measure. If racing were judged by artistic effort, it would be called ice dancing.

Scott
02-20-2014, 09:32 AM
I've never suggested that. I've suggested the EBR team simply needs the same kind of time and experience other teams have required when campaigning a debut WSBK effort. It's going to be a couple of seasons before the the EBR is running mid-pack.

I think we are close to the same page, but I can't help but look at it in terms of overall competitiveness, because that's the objective measure. If racing were judged by artistic effort, it would be called ice dancing.

I didn't mean to imply that was your perspective - I'm talking with you but also arguing against other things I'm reading as I cruise around the internet. And I agree 4.6 seconds off the fastest bike and 2 seconds off fifteenth place isn't competitive. But everything considered, I would classify it as an acceptable starting point.

Based on what we now know, here are my two objective goals for the weekend: A qualifying time for one of the two riders within 3.5 seconds of the top qualifying time and a finish of 18th place or better. Based on the level of competition and the situation, I will be happy if they hit one of those two metrics and very happy if they hit both. And then I'll raise the bar for the next round.

Doosh
02-20-2014, 09:43 AM
I would suggest just making the show is a big win for the team. They are likely to get lapped come race day.

And don't think I'm not sympathetic. I earned myself a solid LAST EFFING PLACE in Formula-1 Expert this past weekend, and damn near got lapped myself doing it.

Classax
02-20-2014, 11:47 AM
I would suggest just making the show is a big win for the team. They are likely to get lapped come race day.

And don't think I'm not sympathetic. I earned myself a solid LAST EFFING PLACE in Formula-1 Expert this past weekend, and damn near got lapped myself doing it.

I think people fail to understand the point of this WSBK effort. Its to continue the track incubation of a breed of EBR streetbike, and advertise HERO to the world. In Doosh's case the level of effort and talent needed to finish last in that class is beyong the abilities of 99.99909% of the world. Having been there to watch, its not like he was limping around the track, with one cyclinder in the grave. 98% of the racers there would kill to have a bike and laptimes as good. He just happen to be on a track with the 2 percent of racers who have time in class and money in the bank to run faster(for now)! EBR is the same way. I suspect they will only be about 2.8 to 3 seconds off the lead(which will break the lap record) and be in 16-20th spot. I would not risk piossible destroying the bikes with limited spares in the test, or even practices or even superpole. Data collection and then a month of bench testing before round two is the objecive. You'll get all the press you need for just being on the grid in Round 1.

Classax
02-21-2014, 09:52 AM
( Sarcasm font enabled.... No wonder we're slow, Geoff isn't even getting his knee down ... Sarcasm font disabled)

169

Hughlysses
02-21-2014, 09:15 PM
Crap! Geoff crashed in today's session and broke his collar bone. Likely out for the weekend: http://www.cyclenews.com/671/24010/Racing-Article/World-Superbike--Geoff-May-Most-Likely-Out-For-Phillip-Island.aspx

Hughlysses
02-22-2014, 11:05 PM
Minimal spoiler content: Aaron Yates successfully finished race 1!!!! www.crash.net has results if you want to know how he did.

Hughlysses
02-23-2014, 12:28 PM
... and Aaron Yates successfully finished race #2. Congratulations to EBR and Aaron for the first-ever American effort in WSBK and successful completion of 2 races! :thumb:

Doosh
02-24-2014, 09:36 AM
They made the show. (one of the BMWs didn't!). One of the bikes finished. Yea, they got lapped, but we kinda expected that.

Honestly, outcomes were about what any realistic expectation would have anticipated. It's a good starting point.

Scott
02-24-2014, 09:54 AM
They made the show. (one of the BMWs didn't!). One of the bikes finished. Yea, they got lapped, but we kinda expected that.

Honestly, outcomes were about what any realistic expectation would have anticipated. It's a good starting point.

Yep. A bit disappointing that Geoff couldn't race because he likely would have at least finished ahead of a couple of the non-EBR bikes and might not have gotten lapped, but they have a clear starting point now. Anything better than two dead-last finishes in the next round will be measurable progress.

I also hope they learned something from the engine failures. What part or parts failed? Why did they fail? Can those components be strengthened under the Superbike rules? If not, can stronger components be incorporated into future engine designs?

They're at the start of the learning curve which means they probably learned more this past weekend than they ever will again. They should have identified some big, fat, low-hanging fruit that they can address by next round.

Hughlysses
02-24-2014, 10:13 AM
Scott- there was some debate about the reported problems from early last week. I'm not sure it's been confirmed that they actually lost engines.

Apparently the rules allow changes to engines that haven't yet been certified and sealed, so that lessons learned early in the season can be incorporated as the season goes on. They are officially limited to 8 engines total, but apparently they're just given a time penalty at the start of each race if they go past the 8 engine allotment, so using up 8 engines is not the end of a team's season.

Classax
02-24-2014, 11:32 AM
A couple of articles I read indicated that the bikes were basically AMA spec and that new homologated heads, gearboxes and swing arms were on the way. That said they still had some sort of major issues, but whatever it was that cause them to pull both bikes in session 1 of the test was at least patched by session 3. GPS driven ECU and traction control makes a HUGE impact on riders and lap times so collecting data is key! I'm sure they will find the necessary top speed. The main thing is not to grenade the engines like a certain race wining Suzuki. Over all I think the whole team wishes they were more competitive, but they certainly have nothing to be ashamed of, being within 5% of the fastest stock based machines around.

Classax
02-24-2014, 04:06 PM
Kevin Cameron of Cycle World makes a few valid points in his round 1 SKB wrap article

...." The EBRs were down 25 mph in top speed (174 mph versus Guintoli’s 199-mph Aprilia) and still bravely insisting Erik Buell’s single-disc front-brake concept is a better way. Don’t count them out. Once Honda faced an incredible number of DNFs in Formula 1 then overcame it to dominate the series. R&D resources are the key. EBR is now backed by a major manufacturer, Hero MotoCorp (http://www.cycleworld.com/tag/hero-motocorp/)., which can, if it chooses, deploy dyno cells, test tracks, and graduate engineers galore. Will it happen? I don’t know. But it could. Honda was new and unknown in 1960 and used racing to teach its name to the world.
May broke his collarbone in last practice and didn’t start. Yates was last in both races. MV Agusta is another story. MV history is rich and romantic, but winning races takes R&D clout—the money to push new designs through development to maturity. Who’s paying?" I don't think that Erik Buell believes the single rotor ZTL brake system is a "better way", but I do think he believes its the best way for him to achieve his his goals of low unsprung weight and mass cetralization. Over the years it has become an iconic trademark in much the same way the single sided swing arm has for Ducati. Hero is clearly committed to getting its name on the world stage via racing and will throw its considerable might into the effort. EBR and Hero are in good position to improve qucikly.

Hughlysses
03-27-2014, 02:14 PM
Nothing posted here recently. Hopefully you guys saw the news that Pegram's AMA bike was down on power at Daytona because extra oil had been added to the crankcase, which is apparently standard practice w/Ducati race bikes. They then figured out the same thing had been done with the WSBK bikes at Phillip Island. Dyno testing showed this cost them ~20+ HP.

In other news, this was posted to Facebook this morning:

Team Hero EBR wrote:

Geoff and Aaron will be testing some new parts at Alcarras in Spain on Monday and Tuesday. Full update and pre-Aragon release to come this weekend.

Classax
03-28-2014, 09:09 AM
Its going to be interesting to see how the bikes perform with the new RX style heads and swing arms. I'm also curious to see how the bikes will fair on topend knowing now that overfilled oil sumps resulted in significant windage losses on HP and RPM.

Doosh
03-31-2014, 09:39 AM
If the 1190 motor is anything like the 1125r, you actually want to run it just a titch low on oil.

The old rule of thumb was change oil, filter and drop the motor screen, pour in 3 QUARTS, and don't worry about it. I found that to generate a decent amount of spray in the airbox via the breather.

I settled on 2.7 quarts in my 1125r-DSB, and made it a point to change it OFTEN. Say, every 5 hours or so.

tunepro
05-06-2014, 10:16 AM
With the evo rules next year , they should be able to close the gap quickly

Hughlysses
06-08-2014, 10:41 AM
No discussion here in over a month- Badweb's off-line this morning so no discussion there.

SPOILER ALERT





Interesting events at Sepang this weekend. First couple of practice sessions didn't seem to show anything new for the EBR bikes. Then Geoff only runs a few laps in FP3 before he comes off the track with an apparently electrical problem. They are unable to get the problem corrected for FP4 or either race!!!! Aaron manages a decent 16th place in race one, the best either rider has done all season and a 20th place finish in race 2.

Team Hero/EBR posted this to their FB page just prior to race 1:
"Aaron has completed the warm up but regretfully Geoff will not take part due to a small electronic issue that we are unable to fix. We thanks all our fans and supporters during our development year, we will continue to work hard and we will rectify the problem because we know now what we need to do."

Team Hero/EBR later had another post (which has apparently been deleted since) which said they would be introducing new parts in the next few races (something they have said previously). Did they finally figure out some crucial mistake they were making with the bike's electronics? It's crazy that a supposedly world-class team couldn't get an electrical issue sorted out on a motorcycle in 24 hours, but maybe they have figured out something fundamental they've been doing wrong. It would be wonderful to see them make a quantum leap in performance in the next race or 2.

Official Team Press release: http://us5.campaign-archive2.com/?u=b1964295d7f155fa8c439a200&id=71764d202d

Classax
06-09-2014, 11:36 AM
Really not much to say. The street bikes are doing well, AMA bikes not so much, and the WSB effort is in shambles with seemingly know real direction. It can only get better becuase it doesn't yet seem that it can get all that much worse. On to the next round.

Scott
06-11-2014, 12:39 PM
The frustrating thing is they don't seem to be showing any progress. I wasn't surprised that they started at the back of the pack, but I expected them to make some gains with each race. They still have half the season left, but I think it's time to start thinking about shaking things up.

Doosh
06-11-2014, 12:47 PM
The frustrating thing is they don't seem to be showing any progress. I wasn't surprised that they started at the back of the pack, but I expected them to make some gains with each race.

It's going to take *seasons*, not races. This ain't the AMA. Whole different level of competition.

If they can consistently start finishing races without getting lapped, that's a great first season. Next year maybe we can see something other than consistently last place finishes. Third year maybe some mid-pack finishes. And so on.

Seasons, my friend, seasons. Not races. Seasons. New bike, new team, new riders (to WSBK), etc.

Classax
06-12-2014, 04:10 PM
It's going to take *seasons*, not races. This ain't the AMA. Whole different level of competition.

If they can consistently start finishing races without getting lapped, that's a great first season. Next year maybe we can see something other than consistently last place finishes. Third year maybe some mid-pack finishes. And so on.

Seasons, my friend, seasons. Not races. Seasons. New bike, new team, new riders (to WSBK), etc.


That right there is TRUTH. Although some would point to the realtive success of the MV and Bimota teams as a counter point, the personel and expereince levels witht the bikes and teams are exponetially higher for both those manufactures. They are clearly having major issues getting the bikes set up well enough to perform as designed let alone pushing the envelope with improvements. All in due time though.

Scott
06-12-2014, 08:48 PM
It's going to take *seasons*, not races. This ain't the AMA. Whole different level of competition.

If they can consistently start finishing races without getting lapped, that's a great first season. Next year maybe we can see something other than consistently last place finishes. Third year maybe some mid-pack finishes. And so on.

Seasons, my friend, seasons. Not races. Seasons. New bike, new team, new riders (to WSBK), etc.


I absolutely agree. The problem is, I don't see any improvement after a half season. If they were 5% better at this point than where they started, they could be 10% better by the end of the season. And after several seasons, they could be competitive. But zero times 100 seasons is still zero.

I can watch a snail crawl across a street and be patient knowing it will eventually get to the other side. It's a little harder to patiently wait for a rock to cross.

Doosh
06-13-2014, 07:38 AM
The problem is, I don't see any improvement after a half season. If they were 5% better at this point than where they started, they could be 10% better by the end of the season. And after several seasons, they could be competitive. But zero times 100 seasons is still zero.

I'm going to argue knowing where the deficiencies lie was the first step forward. Having discovered and documented that wouldn't have reflected in outcomes yet.

Seasons, my friend.... seasons.

Classax
06-18-2014, 10:47 AM
I'm going to argue knowing where the deficiencies lie was the first step forward. Having discovered and documented that wouldn't have reflected in outcomes yet.

Seasons, my friend.... seasons.

The first step in any great journey is made not with the foot, but with the mind. Discovering what has to be improved is one of the biggest steps that can be taken.

Beau1k
06-18-2014, 11:33 PM
I think that the Buell "innovative" concepts that look good on paper don't translate well to the racetrack. Has Buell EVER been competitive in any class at any point in time? I'm not trying to talk **** I just don't even know.

Hughlysses
06-19-2014, 09:05 AM
Danny Eslick and Geoff May had several podium finishes on the EBR 1190RS in AMA Superbike. The team seemed to be improving fairly steadily, then EBR's focus shifted to the new street bikes (1190RX) and the race teams (EBR factory team and RSR) weren't as competitive last year. Now they've moved their main effort to WSBK, which seems to be a huge leap in competition compared to AMA.

Scott
06-19-2014, 11:05 AM
I think that the Buell "innovative" concepts that look good on paper don't translate well to the racetrack. Has Buell EVER been competitive in any class at any point in time? I'm not trying to talk **** I just don't even know.


Danny Eslick and Geoff May had several podium finishes on the EBR 1190RS in AMA Superbike. The team seemed to be improving fairly steadily, then EBR's focus shifted to the new street bikes (1190RX) and the race teams (EBR factory team and RSR) weren't as competitive last year. Now they've moved their main effort to WSBK, which seems to be a huge leap in competition compared to AMA.


Yeah, I think the basic design has proven itself pretty well up to this point. For such a radical approach, being able to qualify on a WSBK grid is pretty amazing. There's no reason that refinement, as opposed to reinvention, shouldn't be able to make it competitive in the future. But I have my doubts regarding the ability of the specific team to pull it off. With the complete lack of experience they came in with, I'd expect them to start very slow, but make gains quicker than all the other teams who were already running close to peak efficiency. But that doesn't seem to be happening.

But each race, I hope to see some improvement, so let's see how things look tomorrow.

Doosh
06-19-2014, 02:32 PM
I think that the Buell "innovative" concepts that look good on paper don't translate well to the racetrack.

As a general statement, this is way too broad to be either accurate or inaccurate. It's just wasted words.

Some of Buell's concepts like unsprung weight and centralized mass are standard design principles used today in most racing machines. Others, like the single-rotor front brake, have proven to require additional development to offer equal performance, all things considered.

So, it's a mix.

Beau1k
06-19-2014, 09:07 PM
Well I was trying to be nice :Whatever:

I think it's pretty obvious that if any of the "innovations" were truly better the market would adapt and you would see these features adopted by the other manufacturers.

The day Yamaha has fuel in the frame, and a single rotor on the edge of the wheel I'll eat my words :blahblah::evilgrinblack:


As a general statement, this is way too broad to be either accurate or inaccurate. It's just wasted words.

Some of Buell's concepts like unsprung weight and centralized mass are standard design principles used today in most racing machines. Others, like the single-rotor front brake, have proven to require additional development to offer equal performance, all things considered.

So, it's a mix.

Scott
06-20-2014, 07:54 AM
Well I was trying to be nice :Whatever:

I think it's pretty obvious that if any of the "innovations" were truly better the market would adapt and you would see these features adopted by the other manufacturers.

The day Yamaha has fuel in the frame, and a single rotor on the edge of the wheel I'll eat my words :blahblah::evilgrinblack:

With respect, isn't this a fairly simplistic view? If everybody else doesn't start using a cross-plane design, does that mean it doesn't work? If Aprilia is the only company running a V4, does that mean that engine configuration isn't valid? If most companies don't race V-Twins, does that mean the engine doesn't work?

What a boring world it would be if everybody used the same method to try to achieve a goal. A single rotor front brake that is in it's infancy in terms of development (compared to designs from other companies that have been refined for the past 40-50 years) is close in performance to the highly refined designs. What might happen with five more years of development, improved materials, designs, manufacturing methods etc.?

Doosh
06-20-2014, 09:58 AM
I think it's pretty obvious that if any of the "innovations" were truly better the market would adapt and you would see these features adopted by the other manufacturers.

The day Yamaha has fuel in the frame, and a single rotor on the edge of the wheel I'll eat my words :blahblah::evilgrinblack:

So if you select only the innovations that didn't work out so well, sure, I can see your point. Or, if you select ideas that are incompatible with the engine architecture of a given platform, sure, I can see why other manufacturers didn't select that approach. Never mind that getting the fuel under the airbox is becoming more common on inline 4s...

I'm also not seeing a lot of undertail exhaust on serious new race machinery.

Doosh
06-20-2014, 10:02 AM
A single rotor front brake that is in it's infancy in terms of development (compared to designs from other companies that have been refined for the past 40-50 years) is close in performance to the highly refined designs. What might happen with five more years of development, improved materials, designs, manufacturing methods etc.?

The front brake sucks. It's flawed. Even if the heat and wear rate problems are eventually solved, because of where the rotor is on the wheel the only real advantage to the system is in unsprung weight. Everything else about it is a performance penalty.

It's fine for casual street riders, but it takes a ton of TLC if you race that thing, even at my lame skill level. I can make it perform well enough for me, but at a higher operating cost and complexity than a typical two-rotor system without any real advantages.

Scott
06-20-2014, 10:33 AM
The front brake sucks. It's flawed. Even if the heat and wear rate problems are eventually solved, because of where the rotor is on the wheel the only real advantage to the system is in unsprung weight. Everything else about it is a performance penalty.

It's fine for casual street riders, but it takes a ton of TLC if you race that thing, even at my lame skill level. I can make it perform well enough for me, but at a higher operating cost and complexity than a typical two-rotor system without any real advantages.

So hypothetically, if you had these brakes:

236

isn't it likely that your braking performance would be inferior to the brakes on competing modern superbikes? My point being that it may not be the basic design, but a lack of refinement.

Of course it's also possible that the basic design is flawed and will never equal that of other bikes. I don't know, but I don't think we can compare the designs apples to apples because one design has been refined for 40 to 50 years while the other hasn't yet begun to be refined.

Doosh
06-20-2014, 02:47 PM
Of course it's also possible that the basic design is flawed and will never equal that of other bikes. I don't know, but I don't think we can compare the designs apples to apples because one design has been refined for 40 to 50 years while the other hasn't yet begun to be refined.

There are some "all things equal" trade-offs to the EBR brake design. In exchange for less unsprung weight, you have less rotor area, a higher moment of inertia, and so on.

You ask a fair question: Could the single-rotor design be refined to the point where, yes, there are fundamental engineering trade offs but it doesn't matter because the system as a whole is good enough? Perhaps. Certainly the WSBK effort won't hurt the development of the brake, and it might help it tremendously.

But right now, the dual-rotor systems out there are still better as a total set of trade-offs.

I have mine working well enough for me. But, I'm not all that fast.

Scott
06-23-2014, 09:46 AM
So what should we expect for the future at this point? Will Hero and EBR recognize they have to put more money in to be competitive and increase their efforts . . . or will they cut their losses and give up at least for the next few years?

I hope it's the former, but fear the latter. Has anybody heard any inside information or have any reason to believe they'll go one way or the other?

Hughlysses
06-23-2014, 11:46 AM
I think the most plausible explanation is that EBR knew what they were getting into, they didn't expect to do well (although maybe they didn't expect to do as badly as they've done) and they're either developing parts or a new platform (V-4 or similar) for next season.

Geoff May did a candid interview with Cycle World last week that, while it doesn't specifically address that point, does say a lot about their frustruating effort this year:

http://www.cycleworld.com/2014/06/21/on-the-record-geoff-may/

Scott
06-23-2014, 02:30 PM
I think the most plausible explanation is that EBR knew what they were getting into, they didn't expect to do well (although maybe they didn't expect to do as badly as they've done) and they're either developing parts or a new platform (V-4 or similar) for next season.

Geoff May did a candid interview with Cycle World last week that, while it doesn't specifically address that point, does say a lot about their frustruating effort this year:

http://www.cycleworld.com/2014/06/21/on-the-record-geoff-may/

Yeah, that interview has a bit of a glum feel to it, doesn't it?

a V-4 would be cool, but that would be a whole new bike (unless they could somehow create one that has similar dimensions and weight). Ducati does well with their V-Twin, so it's certainly possible to create a twin with enough power. But that could require a nearly clean-sheet V-Twin. But a nearly clean sheet V-Twin could be developed that is similar enough in size and weight that they could likely put it in the same frame.

Of course any new engine would have to be homologated as a whole new bike (unless they can get a lot more power with the SBK allowed modifications - but my understanding is that twins are limited in modification and will probably be more limited next year).

One thing that isn't mentioned much, but was mentioned in at least one article I read is weight. One comment (from the team manager?) seemed to indicate they had a weight problem (and while the initial specs made the bike seem very light, it was something like 20 lbs heavier than the Ducati in a comparison I read). If they could shave 20 lbs off, that could make all the difference in the world. Weight wouldn't seem to make a big difference in top speed, but in the reality of the race track, a heavier bike will carry less speed out of the corner, accelerate more slowly and then have to brake sooner going into the next corner. If they really are overweight, that could be a big chunk of the battle (if it's possible to lose it).

Doosh
06-23-2014, 04:45 PM
WSBK is the real deal. They may be production based, but in many ways the bikes are just as trick as the prototype brethren in MotoGP. It's really hard to compete at that level.

d_adams
06-23-2014, 06:24 PM
I'd like to see those same riders out there on showroom stock bikes and see how they stack up. The whole "win on sunday, sell on monday" thing is a bunch of hooey to me if you can't go buy what they're racing for a reasonable amount of money. By reasonable, keep it under $25k. No extras, no trick parts, nothing. I guess that's the evo class or whatever, I don't keep up with all the class rules or whatever. I'd bet the stock EBR 1190 would do quite well against most other totally stock liter class bikes out there on the market today.

Hughlysses
06-23-2014, 07:55 PM
(cross-posted from IOM TT Thread)

Great interviews with Mark Miller and Brandon Cretu at Motopod: http://www.motopodcast.com (http://www.motopodcast.com/)

Brandon's on episode #409 starting at 00:39:00.

Mark is on episode #410 starting at 01:43:54.

If you're feeling down about how EBR's been doing in competition this year, listen to Miller's interview. He freaking RAVES about how great the bike is, especially the FRONT BRAKE!!!

Doosh
06-23-2014, 09:19 PM
I'd like to see those same riders out there on showroom stock bikes and see how they stack up. The whole "win on sunday, sell on monday" thing is a bunch of hooey to me if you can't go buy what they're racing for a reasonable amount of money. By reasonable, keep it under $25k. No extras, no trick parts, nothing. I guess that's the evo class or whatever, I don't keep up with all the class rules or whatever. I'd bet the stock EBR 1190 would do quite well against most other totally stock liter class bikes out there on the market today.

Yea, but it doesn't work that way. The MotoGP bikes are pure prototypes and by the rules (other than the CRT) cannot have anything in common with what you can buy.

WSBK are so exotic being production based is just the start. They are still million-dollar machines in some ways.

But, super-stock racing, even though it exists, just isn't interesting to fans.

The stock EBR might do... OK... If club racing is any indication of what stock bikes are like, the ZX-10 is the weapon of choice, hands down.

Scott
06-24-2014, 07:30 AM
But, super-stock racing, even though it exists, just isn't interesting to fans.


I think the problem is, nobody wants to see the 'undercard'. If there was no superbike and the premier class was super-stock (and I think we're slowly moving in that direction) I think people would enjoy it every bit as much they currently enjoy Superbike. Fans don't care about modified cams, polished heads etc. etc. etc. those are just things the better financed manufacturers and teams want in the rules so they can get an advantage.

I personally like the idea of racing bikes at the top level that are as close to stock as possible. It levels the playing field, makes more interesting competition and it prevents the top teams from always having the best equipment (similar to the salary cap in football). I also like the idea that if they want to make their bike faster they've got to make the bike you and I can buy better - not just buy a million dollar part and slap it on (and for those who argue that bikes benefit from the R & D, how much benefit and R & D do we really get when a team puts a $200,000 suspension on their bike? We'll never see that suspension on our bike. But if they're forced to race bikes that are more stock, we'll get better stock suspensions).

But as long as there are both Superbike and Superstock, fans will always prefer Superbike. It's the same concept that prevented DMG from making Sportbike their premier class. Race fans are always going to see the fastest class as the thing they really want to see.

Doosh
06-24-2014, 09:17 AM
Race fans are always going to see the fastest class as the thing they really want to see.

Which is why superstock sucks.

The riders at that level are capable of extracting everything a stock bike has to offer. Why constrain them and dampen the show?

Classax
06-24-2014, 11:55 AM
Which is why superstock sucks.

The riders at that level are capable of extracting everything a stock bike has to offer. Why constrain them and dampen the show?

It might make for better racing than the parades we usually see. You want to see great racing to me its at the club level. WSBK are the NASCAR of the two wheel world, the're producition based but the similarites stop at the photo realistic headlights decals. The sooner teams figure that out the sooner they start to actually compete instead of just circulate.

Hughlysses
06-24-2014, 06:00 PM
According to a sidebar on the WSBK article in today's issue of Cycle News, Geoff has used up his allotment of 8 engines while Aaron still has several spares (?). Apparently the team requested an exception to the rules to allow them to exceed the allotment of 8 engines which was denied. Per the rules, this means Geoff has to start from the pits for 2 races. That would seem to be a negligible penalty for the team at this point. Very curious that Geoff would have had so many more engine failures, especially since he missed 2 or 3 races early in the season after his injury. Perhaps the two bikes are running different parts or electronics?

Read it here: http://cyclenews.uberflip.com/i/334712

Scott
06-25-2014, 12:58 PM
According to a sidebar on the WSBK article in today's issue of Cycle News, Geoff has used up his allotment of 8 engines while Aaron still has several spares (?). Apparently the team requested an exception to the rules to allow them to exceed the allotment of 8 engines which was denied. Per the rules, this means Geoff has to start from the pits for 2 races. That would seem to be a negligible penalty for the team at this point. Very curious that Geoff would have had so many more engine failures, especially since he missed 2 or 3 races early in the season after his injury. Perhaps the two bikes are running different parts or electronics?

Read it here: http://cyclenews.uberflip.com/i/334712

The silver lining to that is engines are no longer a concern - at least for Geoff. If he goes through 1 or 10 from now until the end of the season, he'll still be starting from the same spot, so take some chances and see what the engine (hopefully with some experimental parts) can do.

The other silver lining is every broken engine should provide valuable information. What failed? Why? Can that part be strengthened within WSBK rules? Can it be strengthened with a modified part that can be included in the 2015 model?

As long as Hero and EBR are willing to stick it out for the long-haul, what doesn't kill them should make them stronger.

Classax
06-25-2014, 01:32 PM
The silver lining to that is engines are no longer a concern - at least for Geoff. If he goes through 1 or 10 from now until the end of the season, he'll still be starting from the same spot, so take some chances and see what the engine (hopefully with some experimental parts) can do.

The other silver lining is every broken engine should provide valuable information. What failed? Why? Can that part be strengthened within WSBK rules? Can it be strengthened with a modified part that can be included in the 2015 model?

As long as Hero and EBR are willing to stick it out for the long-haul, what doesn't kill them should make them stronger.



In the past May was about 2 seconds a lap quciker than Yates on avergage so I think he rides the bike much harder. At this point there's no where to go but home or up. Doesn't look like they even know how to say the word quit so...

Scott
06-25-2014, 02:17 PM
In the past May was about 2 seconds a lap quciker than Yates on avergage so I think he rides the bike much harder. At this point there's no where to go but home or up. Doesn't look like they even know how to say the word quit so...

This has been one of the bizarre and frustrating things. Aaron seems to be getting consistent laps in and making some small improvements, but Geoff is all over the place. If Geoff was running as consistently as Aaron he could probably be finishing in the top 15 with some consistency.

I might suspect the shoulder injury, but it seems like Geoff just can't get any laps in during practice or actual races without something going wrong. I don't know if Aaron's crew is that much better or if Geoff is just having an awful string of bad luck, but if Geoff could get some more laps in, I think it would change the look of this effort for the better.

Hughlysses
07-04-2014, 01:44 PM
Looks like we're in for another miserable weekend in WSBK. Geoff didn't run in FP1; no clue why. Aaron was the slowest bike out. In FP2, both bikes were running, but they're still 1-2 seconds/lap too slow to even make the field, much less get a decent finish.

I'm really convinced the EBR bikes used some trick engine parts at Isle of Man that could at least put the bikes in the points race in WSBK (listen to Mark Miller's interview, linked elsewhere). Why they aren't using them in WSBK (yet?), I have no idea. If they don't do any better than this at Laguna Seca, it will NOT be good.

BTW- Larry Pegram is sitting out the AMA Superbike race at LS and will run his EBR in WSBK as a wildcard. The press release noted he has to add a quieter muffler and run aluminum wheels vice the regular magnesium ones to meet WSBK requirements. Interesting.

Scott
07-05-2014, 09:27 AM
Looks like we're in for another miserable weekend in WSBK. Geoff didn't run in FP1; no clue why. Aaron was the slowest bike out. In FP2, both bikes were running, but they're still 1-2 seconds/lap too slow to even make the field, much less get a decent finish.

I'm really convinced the EBR bikes used some trick engine parts at Isle of Man that could at least put the bikes in the points race in WSBK (listen to Mark Miller's interview, linked elsewhere). Why they aren't using them in WSBK (yet?), I have no idea. If they don't do any better than this at Laguna Seca, it will NOT be good.

BTW- Larry Pegram is sitting out the AMA Superbike race at LS and will run his EBR in WSBK as a wildcard. The press release noted he has to add a quieter muffler and run aluminum wheels vice the regular magnesium ones to meet WSBK requirements. Interesting.

Actually, this morning, Geoff and his team seemed to finally make some progress. This may not look like much, but at 103.7 % of the fastest time, he's finally starting to make a dent:


http://resources.worldsbk.com/files/results/2014/POR/SBK/L3A/CLA/Results.pdf

Hughlysses
07-05-2014, 12:54 PM
Yea, they had a couple of press releases. Apparently Geoff's engine was tied up in Portugese customs and barely made it there in time to be installed for FP2. The release clearly says it's an "improved engine" and Geoff is apparently pleased. He was ~2 seconds/lap faster that Aaron (who is running a "non-improved engine") despite having much less practice time than Aaron.

Now, if it'll just hold together for the races tomorrow...

Scott
07-05-2014, 02:34 PM
Yea, they had a couple of press releases. Apparently Geoff's engine was tied up in Portugese customs and barely made it there in time to be installed for FP2. The release clearly says it's an "improved engine" and Geoff is apparently pleased. He was ~2 seconds/lap faster that Aaron (who is running a "non-improved engine") despite having much less practice time than Aaron.

Now, if it'll just hold together for the races tomorrow...


Very cool. It seems like, up until now, they've been racing a basically a stock engine vs. the best Superbike engines in the world. It's frustrating they didn't start sooner, but maybe they were being very conservative. Now that Geoff has used up all his engines, maybe they'll take the risks they need to improve.

Hughlysses
07-06-2014, 12:25 PM
Press release after today's races:

http://us5.campaign-archive1.com/?u=b1964295d7f155 fa8c439a200&id=cc505b42c5 (http://us5.campaign-archive1.com/?u=b1964295d7f155fa8c439a200&id=cc505b42c5)


quote:Geoff May – “It’s no secret that we are onto engine ten with five races to go. It is impossible to do anything here from the pit lane so we chose to save our engine. We accomplished what we needed to this weekend in terms of testing the new parts and the results were pleasing so we move on to Laguna next week where I won’t need to start pit lane.”


It sounds like May deliberately ran as few laps as possible this weekend to save the "improved engine" for Laguna Seca. Perhaps Aaron dropped out of race 2 deliberately as well?

I guess we'll see if they've got anything next weekend. It'll be the best engine they've had all season on a track the riders know and they should have knowledge of how to set up the bikes for the track, assuming the factory and AMA guys are involved in the pits.

Scott
07-06-2014, 01:49 PM
Press release after today's races:

http://us5.campaign-archive1.com/?u=b1964295d7f155 fa8c439a200&id=cc505b42c5 (http://us5.campaign-archive1.com/?u=b1964295d7f155fa8c439a200&id=cc505b42c5)


quote:Geoff May – “It’s no secret that we are onto engine ten with five races to go. It is impossible to do anything here from the pit lane so we chose to save our engine. We accomplished what we needed to this weekend in terms of testing the new parts and the results were pleasing so we move on to Laguna next week where I won’t need to start pit lane.”


It sounds like May deliberately ran as few laps as possible this weekend to save the "improved engine" for Laguna Seca. Perhaps Aaron dropped out of race 2 deliberately as well?

I guess we'll see if they've got anything next weekend. It'll be the best engine they've had all season on a track the riders know and they should have knowledge of how to set up the bikes for the track, assuming the factory and AMA guys are involved in the pits.

Race 2 was wet, so I doubt they wanted to risk bike and limb with no chance for points. I don't understand the comment about not starting from pit lane. I thought that was for the rest of the season. Is it one race per engine over the limit or something?

Hughlysses
07-06-2014, 05:44 PM
I believe the penalty is to start 2 races from pit lane for each engine over 8. 2 races today takes care of Geoff's current penalty.

Scott
07-06-2014, 06:16 PM
I believe the penalty is to start 2 races from pit lane for each engine over 8. 2 races today takes care of Geoff's current penalty.

:thumb:

Good info. Here's hoping for some points next weekend.

I keep finding myself going through various stages. Every race weekend, I check the practice times hoping they'll manage some breakthrough only to be disappointed.

But just to be out there, racing against the best in the world is an accomplishment and the experience is invaluable. As long as thye have the will . . . and money to stick it out, I'm confident we'll eventually see them working their way through the field.

But sometimes it's hard to keep perspective, hope and optimism when they seem to be having so many problems.

Hughlysses
07-07-2014, 05:07 AM
More interesting info- a couple of guys on Badweb claim a commentator during this weekend's race (on TV I guess) stated that EBR had tested with a conventional front twin disk braking setup, and averaged 3 seconds/lap faster, but they are not allowed to run this setup due to homologation issues. It'd be very interesting to know the validity of this claim. I think lots of people are too quick to blame the non-standard front brake for EBR's problems.

I could understand the ZTL setup losing performance over the course of an entire race (Geoff has previously mentioned pad wear being a problem) but it does seem the brakes should hold up at least long enough for fast lap or 2 during qualifying.

OTOH- if this is true, the engines are apparently a damn site better than their finishes this season would indicate. Another guy on Badweb says the German press says the engines have been essentially box-stock, shipped to the teams from the US and not modified at all (at least up until Geoff's modified engine this weekend).

Scott
07-07-2014, 08:41 AM
More interesting info- a couple of guys on Badweb claim a commentator during this weekend's race (on TV I guess) stated that EBR had tested with a conventional front twin disk braking setup, and averaged 3 seconds/lap faster, but they are not allowed to run this setup due to homologation issues. It'd be very interesting to know the validity of this claim. I think lots of people are too quick to blame the non-standard front brake for EBR's problems.

I could understand the ZTL setup losing performance over the course of an entire race (Geoff has previously mentioned pad wear being a problem) but it does seem the brakes should hold up at least long enough for fast lap or 2 during qualifying.

OTOH- if this is true, the engines are apparently a damn site better than their finishes this season would indicate. Another guy on Badweb says the German press says the engines have been essentially box-stock, shipped to the teams from the US and not modified at all (at least up until Geoff's modified engine this weekend).


IF that's true, I'm sure we'll see changes. I'm not sure how the homologation rules work exactly in terms of 'race kits', but I would expect they will work to either modify it within the rules, develop some kind of 'race kit' or incorporate changes into next-year's model.

3 seconds is huge, so if there's a way they can pick that up, I'm sure they'll be doing what they can (of course it's very possible that a tiny measured difference became 3 seconds in the telling . . . or the information could be entirely erroneous). I would also be curious regarding the ability of the spokes to handle traditional brakes. Part of the theory is that the rim-mounted brake results in less force being transferred to the wheel and that allows a lighter wheel. Can that lighter wheel handle those forces or are they using a different wheel as well? (which might be a whole other homologation issue).

I would expect that the plan was to use this season to identify deficincies and it's very likely we could see a new model next year with modified components based on what they've learned ( a new, $28,000 RS perhaps? ). They are still a very small manufacturer, and I believe that allows them lower homologation limits ( has Bimota even sold 1 bike yet?).

Scott
07-07-2014, 08:51 AM
If I read this right:

http://www.motomatters.com/news/2014/02/22/world_superbike_homologation_numbers_hal.html

It sounds like they could develop a 2015 1190RS, for example as long as they could sell 250 units in 2015 and 750 units in 2016.

And with Bimota likely lobbying to reduce those numbers, it could become even more manageable than that.

Considering what Dorna allowed Bimota to do to get them on the grid, I could imagine them shifting the rules specifically for small manufacturers to keep both EBR and Bimota on the grid.

Hughlysses
07-08-2014, 07:34 PM
IF that's true, I'm sure we'll see changes. I'm not sure how the homologation rules work exactly in terms of 'race kits', but I would expect they will work to either modify it within the rules, develop some kind of 'race kit' or incorporate changes into next-year's model.
erhaps? ). They are still a very small manufacturer, and I believe that allows them lower homologation limits ( has Bimota even sold 1 bike yet?).

Further discussion about this on Badweb today. Apparently somebody posted info on the '3 seconds/lap improved time with "conventional" brakes' claim on EBR's FB page yesterday and EBR responded that the claim is BS.

Here's the exchange, as related on Badweb:
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Raz Man- Is it true that the WSBK team put regular rotors and brakes on and went 3 SECONDS per lap faster????

EBR- No, it is not true. Where in the world did that come from? BTW, there are no "regular" brakes on the other bikes on the WSBK grid. The trick stuff there is 10K Euros per bike!

Razz Man- Watch the Eurosport broadcast, one of the Brit announcers said it during the warmup lap for race 2.

And you know that I meant the not perimeter braking system lol!

EBR- Well the commentators completely made that up. In fact our system has been tested as superior against production level dual disc systems. However, there likely is an advantage to the mega buck WSBK systems. We may test a set of those, but haven't yet. Unfortunately were we to make an equivalently exotic ISO system, we could not run it, as brake systems have to be approved by WSBK before the season starts.

Scott
07-09-2014, 09:47 AM
Further discussion about this on Badweb today. Apparently somebody posted info on the '3 seconds/lap improved time with "conventional" brakes' claim on EBR's FB page yesterday and EBR responded that the claim is BS.

Here's the exchange, as related on Badweb:
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Raz Man- Is it true that the WSBK team put regular rotors and brakes on and went 3 SECONDS per lap faster????

EBR- No, it is not true. Where in the world did that come from? BTW, there are no "regular" brakes on the other bikes on the WSBK grid. The trick stuff there is 10K Euros per bike!

Razz Man- Watch the Eurosport broadcast, one of the Brit announcers said it during the warmup lap for race 2.

And you know that I meant the not perimeter braking system lol!

EBR- Well the commentators completely made that up. In fact our system has been tested as superior against production level dual disc systems. However, there likely is an advantage to the mega buck WSBK systems. We may test a set of those, but haven't yet. Unfortunately were we to make an equivalently exotic ISO system, we could not run it, as brake systems have to be approved by WSBK before the season starts.

I've heard announcers say enough ignorant things about Buells/EBR's over the years that it doesn't surprise me - particularly since everyone assumes the brakes don't work.

And three seconds sounded crazy. Bottom line: No matter how much EBR may like the idea of their novel brake, if they have any real evidence a more traditional set-up will help them win races, I'm sure we'll see more conventional set-ups in the future.

Doosh
07-09-2014, 03:25 PM
The brake is a compromise of factors like any technical decision would be. Among other technical issues, it trades an unsprung weight advantage for a heat handling disadvantage. On the street and at the club level, I think there's very few real disadvantages or advantages to it -- my 1190 brake system works more or less like the one on my GSXR-600, it just requires more frequent service (rotors and pads), but the wheel is noticeably lighter.

At the professional level, what are the requirements of those riders and tracks? That will dictate which system has the inherent advantage. To my knowledge, at the WSBK level most of the brake set-ups include additional material on the rotors over stock and additional heat handling measures in the calipers and pads. So, that would imply the EBR brake, with it's natural heat handling disadvantage (after all, it simply does weigh less), would be a challenge...

Perhaps EBR has some tricks up their sleeve to better handle the heat dissipation needs of riders at that level?

Scott
07-11-2014, 09:23 AM
The brake is a compromise of factors like any technical decision would be. Among other technical issues, it trades an unsprung weight advantage for a heat handling disadvantage. On the street and at the club level, I think there's very few real disadvantages or advantages to it -- my 1190 brake system works more or less like the one on my GSXR-600, it just requires more frequent service (rotors and pads), but the wheel is noticeably lighter.

At the professional level, what are the requirements of those riders and tracks? That will dictate which system has the inherent advantage. To my knowledge, at the WSBK level most of the brake set-ups include additional material on the rotors over stock and additional heat handling measures in the calipers and pads. So, that would imply the EBR brake, with it's natural heat handling disadvantage (after all, it simply does weigh less), would be a challenge...

Perhaps EBR has some tricks up their sleeve to better handle the heat dissipation needs of riders at that level?

Very well said.:thumb:

It is very complicated and the EBR brakes can probably be improved much more easily than the competition (which is already near the top of their game). None of us can really say which system - alone, with no other variables such power, torque, suspension, frame, wind resistance, rider, tires, team etc. - is superior.

It was intriguing to think that they had performed testing and seen a 3 second improvement - that kind of dramatic difference would be too much to ignore. But now that it seems that is BS, we're right back to where we started.

My general feeling (with very limited data) is that if this radically different system can simply survive in WSBK at this very early stage of development, it's worth some continued work to see if an improved system can be made to surpass the competition. But if I really had the data and numbers, I might look at it and say: "This will never work. It's too far off the mark." A true 3 second difference would probably be enough to make me say that.

Doosh
07-11-2014, 10:39 AM
It is very complicated and the EBR brakes can probably be improved much more easily than the competition (which is already near the top of their game). None of us can really say which system - alone, with no other variables such power, torque, suspension, frame, wind resistance, rider, tires, team etc. - is superior.

Maybe.

I'm gonna go out on a limb and suggest if it were comprehensively better at the highest levels of competition we would have already seen a carbon/composite version of this brake in MotoGP. Perimeter rotor designs are not new -- I've seen dual-rotor versions of something substantially similar to the EBR brake on a Moto Guzzi from decades ago.

I do think you are right to suggest that the EBR brake design has lower-hanging fruit to find than the dual rotor systems, having enjoyed decades of significantly more investment than the EBR system.

But, that doesn't mean the EBR system will eclipse, or even equal such classic designs for competition.

On the street and for the mortals and terrestrials among us, I think it's been well demonstrated the EBR system works just fine.

Hughlysses
07-11-2014, 10:47 AM
It was suggested on the thread at Badweb that braking problems could in fact be causing engine problems. If a rider reaches for a handful of brake at the end of the straight and doesn't have enough, it could cause him to overrev as he downshifts entering the turn, leading to broken springs/keepers, dropped valves, etc.

I strongly suspect that while we've seen negligible improvements in the WSBK's team's performances, EBR has been working on all this behind the scenes. Mark Miller raves about the performance and braking of the EBR 1190RS he road at Isle of Man last month (listen to audio interview I posted in another thread), and notes the braking performance was vastly superior to what he experienced on the EBR 1190RS he rode last year at Macau.

Last weekend Geoff was running an "improved" engine which they conserved for this weekend. Geoff posted to Facebook yesterday "This weekend will be interesting, one way or another. All or nothing. " Sounds like it won't be business as usual this weekend.

Scott
07-11-2014, 01:46 PM
It was suggested on the thread at Badweb that braking problems could in fact be causing engine problems. If a rider reaches for a handful of brake at the end of the straight and doesn't have enough, it could cause him to overrev as he downshifts entering the turn, leading to broken springs/keepers, dropped valves, etc.

I strongly suspect that while we've seen negligible improvements in the WSBK's team's performances, EBR has been working on all this behind the scenes. Mark Miller raves about the performance and braking of the EBR 1190RS he road at Isle of Man last month (listen to audio interview I posted in another thread), and notes the braking performance was vastly superior to what he experienced on the EBR 1190RS he rode last year at Macau.

Last weekend Geoff was running an "improved" engine which they conserved for this weekend. Geoff posted to Facebook yesterday "This weekend will be interesting, one way or another. All or nothing. " Sounds like it won't be business as usual this weekend.

Geoff's practice looked very good and Aaron's was also better than typical. I'm sure some of that is the track familiarity, but I'm hoping it's also that engine improvement that was apparently just incorporated.

The braking/engine connection is interesting, but wouldn't we have seen AMA engine issues if that were the case? I suspect the engine issues are simply the team pushing too hard and pushing the engine beyond its capabilities. Hopefully the new engine can handle the higher revving without blowing up.

Keep your fingers crossed for our first Super-Pole!

Hughlysses
07-11-2014, 02:36 PM
The gist of the discussion there suggests that WSBK tracks are generally more flowing and faster than AMA tracks resulting in higher straightaway speeds and putting more stress on the brakes. I can see that this wouldn't necessarily be a "linear" thing, a slight increase in maximum speeds might result in a huge increase in brake fade as the brakes are pushed past their limits. You wouldn't have to run into a corner too fast but once, downshift and instantly you've grenaded the engine.

At any rate, good FP1. Geoff's significantly quicker and faster than the other EBR's and qualified 16th for that session. All 3 EBR's seem to be well within the minimum speed to qualify. Now the next big question is "will Geoff's engine hold together for another 2 practice sessions and 2 race?". Heck, maybe the engine's still got power he hasn't used (it might make sense to hold back as much as possible in practice) and we'll REALLY see something later in the weekend. At the very least, hopefully he'll make Superpole which will be a major milestone for their effort.

Go EBR!

Scott
07-12-2014, 06:39 AM
The gist of the discussion there suggests that WSBK tracks are generally more flowing and faster than AMA tracks resulting in higher straightaway speeds and putting more stress on the brakes. I can see that this wouldn't necessarily be a "linear" thing, a slight increase in maximum speeds might result in a huge increase in brake fade as the brakes are pushed past their limits. You wouldn't have to run into a corner too fast but once, downshift and instantly you've grenaded the engine.

At any rate, good FP1. Geoff's significantly quicker and faster than the other EBR's and qualified 16th for that session. All 3 EBR's seem to be well within the minimum speed to qualify. Now the next big question is "will Geoff's engine hold together for another 2 practice sessions and 2 race?". Heck, maybe the engine's still got power he hasn't used (it might make sense to hold back as much as possible in practice) and we'll REALLY see something later in the weekend. At the very least, hopefully he'll make Superpole which will be a major milestone for their effort.

Go EBR!

I was watching the live timing yesterday and it was (as usual) a frustrating situation. It just seems like they're always in the pits and never turning laps. Geoff didn't make any gains in the second session and it went down to the last 5 minutes of the 3rd session before he seemed to make any progress. And then he was shaving time off with the last 3 or 4 laps he did. Why couldn't he have been making that kind of progress all day?

Pegram seemed to do relatively well and was running close to May which is cool . . . but it makes you wonder what the heck the WSBK teams have been doing all year. How is it possible that Pegram can take an AMA spec. bike on unfamiliar tires and match bikes that have been racing and developing for WSBK all year?!?!

It reinforces the idea that the team just isn't making progress. Which is frustrating. But also points to the idea that if (through some undefined set of circumstances) they actually COULD make progress, there's no reason they couldn't be competitive.

Hughlysses
07-12-2014, 09:05 AM
Overall yesterday was pretty frustrating, but it sure started out well. THAT at least was a change. It looks like Aaron's engine broke during FP3; I forget if he has any spares left or not(?).

I'm just wondering what kind of strategy they're likely to be employing, especially with Geoff. We know they built a special "improved" engine and raced as little as possible last weekend to conserve it for this weekend. Given that, how do you use it this weekend? I guess it'd make sense to take it as easy as possible in the practice sessions and save it for the race. OTOH, their stated goal is to make Superpole. Clearly, they've got to step up quite a bit to achieve that. Geoff knocked about 1/2 second/lap off his times in 3 sessions yesterday and he'd have to knock at least another ~1 second/lap off today to make Superpole.

So, do you risk blowing the engine to make Superpole and then risk blowing the engine during Superpole to qualify well and achieve a stated goal, or do you hold something back so you can make the race, although in a significantly worse starting position, hoping you can get a decent race finish?

:confused:

Scott
07-12-2014, 08:23 PM
Overall yesterday was pretty frustrating, but it sure started out well. THAT at least was a change. It looks like Aaron's engine broke during FP3; I forget if he has any spares left or not(?).

I'm just wondering what kind of strategy they're likely to be employing, especially with Geoff. We know they built a special "improved" engine and raced as little as possible last weekend to conserve it for this weekend. Given that, how do you use it this weekend? I guess it'd make sense to take it as easy as possible in the practice sessions and save it for the race. OTOH, their stated goal is to make Superpole. Clearly, they've got to step up quite a bit to achieve that. Geoff knocked about 1/2 second/lap off his times in 3 sessions yesterday and he'd have to knock at least another ~1 second/lap off today to make Superpole.

So, do you risk blowing the engine to make Superpole and then risk blowing the engine during Superpole to qualify well and achieve a stated goal, or do you hold something back so you can make the race, although in a significantly worse starting position, hoping you can get a decent race finish?

:confused:

I would hope that they would do enough bench-work with the engines prior to the races that there aren't any big surprises Sure, the actual race is going to produce some different stresses than the bench, but they should have pretty good idea of the comfortable RPM limits before getting out on the track.

While I was (as always) hoping for more dramatic progress, Geoff should be starting tomorrow better than he has all season. My bright spot of the weekend so far is Cory West who has been doing a great job with a tight budget. I sort of wish Cory was riding instead of Aaron in WSBK. They probably could have done similarly this year, but Cory could have more of a future. I'd like to see them moving toward younger riders who can build for the future.

Also interesting to note that Josh Hayes would have qualified 16th in WSBK, so that help to illustrate how tough the field is (and shows it's not just EBR's engine configuration or brakes holding them back).

Hughlysses
07-13-2014, 12:36 PM
Well, Geoff didn't make Superpole, but all the EBR's are qualified, so that's good.

NOW to see if Geoff's been holding back all weekend. Fingers crossed....

Hughlysses
07-13-2014, 02:06 PM
*** SPOILER ALERT ***









Aaron apparently broke with 10 laps left, Larry broke with 3 laps left, and Geoff improved a few positions and finished in 19th. Larry was actually the fastest EBR up until he left the race.

Still one more WSBK race and the lone AMA Superbike race to go. 19th is a decent showing by Geoff, but nothing to write home about. Cory may the best hope for a good showing for EBR this weekend.

Hughlysses
07-13-2014, 05:37 PM
*** SPOILER ALERT ***

EDIT: race 2 NOT over. Back under green.

Hughlysses
07-13-2014, 05:38 PM
On a related note, here's a very good 20+ minute interview with Erik from Laguna Seca. He answers a lot of questions about this year's WSBK effort and where they're going in the future:

http://speedcitypodcast.com/speedcast-84-eirk-buell/

Scott
07-13-2014, 05:40 PM
Well if you just look at the finish order, it doesn't seem any different from past races, but Geoff (and Larry) finally seemed to be doing something. They were running within 3 seconds of the top bikes and within 1 second of the mid-pack riders and they haven't done nearly that well yet this season.

It's probably mostly attributable to the lack of high speed straights plus track familiarity, but hopefully they're figuring some other things out as well.

I hope they'll stick it out next year, and if they do I'd like to see them bring in a young rider to take Aaron's place. It might be interesting to see them give a young rider a chance to finish out the season, and if he can do something, give him a contract for next year. Otherwise look for someone else.

Hughlysses
07-13-2014, 06:58 PM
*** SPOILER ALERT ***










Apparently they ran 7 more laps. FINAL finishing order Pegram 14 and May 16!

Scott
07-14-2014, 07:57 AM
*** SPOILER ALERT ***










Apparently they ran 7 more laps. FINAL finishing order Pegram 14 and May 16!

Cool and a nice performance by Larry! But I've been trying to focus less on finishing positions (which can be affected by how many riders actually finish - a rider could be 10 seconds per lap behind the leaders and have a decent-looking finish if enough riders drop out). I try to focus more on the percentage lap time compared to top riders and the gap between EBR and the riders ahead of them. EBR (or more specifically Geoff - who I think is currently their best chance at decent finishes in the coming years) made big gains on those two key points.

It's not just that EBR has been running at or near the bottom, but the fact that there has been a big gap between them and the riders ahead of them that they needed to close before they could even start to climb through the ranks. They closed that gap this weekend and were running around 103% of the leaders. If they can build on that, I believe they can really do something.

Now the big question is: "Did they only do as well as they did because it was Laguna Seca, or have they made real improvements that will carry through to future venues?" We'll find out in the coming weeks, but at least we have more hope than we have so far through the dreary series.

Doosh
07-14-2014, 09:21 AM
It was suggested on the thread at Badweb that braking problems could in fact be causing engine problems. If a rider reaches for a handful of brake at the end of the straight and doesn't have enough, it could cause him to overrev as he downshifts entering the turn, leading to broken springs/keepers, dropped valves, etc.

Eslick was notorious for this, zinging motors on downshifts as he used the clutch to get the rear to come around.

Outside of that, I would apply a pretty significant discount percentage to what you hear on BadWeb. There's excessive fanboism displayed in surprisingly generous quantities by an audience that, based on the charging system issues, basically just can't/won't ride.

Scott
07-14-2014, 09:30 AM
Outside of that, I would apply a pretty significant discount percentage to what you hear on BadWeb. There's excessive fanboism displayed in surprisingly generous quantities by an audience that, based on the charging system issues, basically just can't/won't ride.

I don't know if it's getting worse or I'm just getting older, but it seems like there used to be some thoughtful, reasonable conversation over there. It may still be there, but if so, it seems to get drowned out by people who feel they have something to 'prove' and/or want to draw attention to themselves.

It's been quite a while since I checked in over there and I don't feel my life's missing anything . . . as long as Hughlysses is willing to sift through all the crap and provide us the tiny nuggets of real information. :wink:

Doosh
07-14-2014, 10:03 AM
It's been quite a while since I checked in over there and I don't feel my life's missing anything . . . as long as Hughlysses is willing to sift through all the crap and provide us the tiny nuggets of real information. :wink:

The 1125 forum is the best repository of technical information on the bikes around. The discussion is useless. Incessant whining.

Hughlysses
07-14-2014, 01:59 PM
It's been quite a while since I checked in over there and I don't feel my life's missing anything . . . as long as Hughlysses is willing to sift through all the crap and provide us the tiny nuggets of real information. :wink:

Well, I've been accused of being a fanboy on more than one occasion, so take any positive comments from me with a grain of salt. :rolleyes:

Hughlysses
07-14-2014, 03:05 PM
I thought I'd repost this link to the interview with Erik from Laguna Seca since it's a couple of pages back now:

http://speedcitypodcast.com/speedcast-84-eirk-buell/

Lots of info on EBR's WSBK efforts.

Scott
07-15-2014, 09:36 AM
Well, I've been accused of being a fanboy on more than one occasion, so take any positive comments from me with a grain of salt. :rolleyes:

:lol:


I thought I'd repost this link to the interview with Erik from Laguna Seca since it's a couple of pages back now:

http://speedcitypodcast.com/speedcast-84-eirk-buell/

Lots of info on EBR's WSBK efforts.

His comments about the electronics are interesting. I've never been a fan of electronics, but it seems they're necessary these days for anyone who wants to compete at that level.

But it's not like you hook them up and, ta-da, you're 2 seconds faster. They're as likely to increase as decrease your times until you really figure them out.

When I stop and really think about all the variables they need to deal with and analyze and try to improve, it seems completely overwhelming. I'm glad they're the ones worrying about all of that so I can just ride and check in on race weekends and see how they're doing.

Doosh
07-15-2014, 01:47 PM
The electronics at that level are insane. The fuel maps change depending on what corner you are in!

Hughlysses
07-16-2014, 04:42 AM
Video of Erik, Geoff, and Aaron on stage at Laguna Seca. There are some more interesting comments by Erik in this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FmjcldcbqAI

Short article on Larry Pegram's accomplishment here: http://www.crash.net/wsbk/news/206798/1/ebr-scores -first-points-but-with-pegram.html (http://www.crash.net/wsbk/news/206798/1/ebr-scores-first-points-but-with-pegram.html)

Click on the link below the photo at the top; there are a lot of photos from the race, many showing the EBR's.

Scott
07-16-2014, 06:19 PM
Video of Erik, Geoff, and Aaron on stage at Laguna Seca. There are some more interesting comments by Erik in this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FmjcldcbqAI

Short article on Larry Pegram's accomplishment here: http://www.crash.net/wsbk/news/206798/1/ebr-scores -first-points-but-with-pegram.html (http://www.crash.net/wsbk/news/206798/1/ebr-scores-first-points-but-with-pegram.html)

Click on the link below the photo at the top; there are a lot of photos from the race, many showing the EBR's.

:thumb:

I'm keeping my fingers crossed that the money will be there to stick it out another year. The final races could be the key to that. A few solid finishes should hopefully keep Hero and other sponsors interested enough to support them for another year.

Will Aaron be there next year? I have to think his age might make them reluctant to sign him for another year.

I'd love to see a young European rider with some track experience join Geoff.

Could Pegram make the jump to WSBK? Cory West? Eslick?

What will the US series look like? Could that determine what the WSBK effort looks like? Will Ulrich expand his series? Will AMA/DMG get their s*** together? Will Dorna create their rumored US series? If I were Dorna, I think I'd make a low-ball offer to AMA/DMG to buy their series, hire Ulrich to manage it and run a minimum of 10 races with a TV package.

If the US had a strong series - particularly one tied to Dorna - it might be tempting for EBR to pull back, regroup and focus on that series (though ideally I'd like to see them maintain a presence in both).

Will Pegram start taking more of a management role? It seems like he's been talking for a while about getting some young riders and phasing himself out. With his ability to get sponsors combined with his knowledge and drive, I'd love to see him become the face of EBR racing. I believe Ducati has a racing team that runs almost as an independent entity. How cool would it be if Pegram could create a company that would focus on EBR racing and bring money in from sponsors, T-Shirt sales, prize money etc. with only minimal support directly from EBR?

Big race this weekend for Cory and Larry. Mid-Ohio is a good track for the EBR's and I believe it's Larry's home track. After both riders performed well in Laguna Seca, hopefully they can finish strong on two EBR friendly tracks.

Scott
09-05-2014, 05:41 AM
Geoff had a promising first practice. He's in 20th place and at 103.8% of the top time - which may not sound great, but he's more in the thick of things than he usually is at this point.

Lets keep our fingers crossed for the first EBR Superpole and maybe some points this weekend. Either of those milestones would illustrate quantifiable progress.

rafa
10-18-2014, 06:56 PM
I hope they stay another year. Next year with the EVO bikes most of the bikes will slow down a little, EBR will likely not change at all as it is the most stock bike out there.

Scott
10-19-2014, 06:41 AM
I hope they stay another year. Next year with the EVO bikes most of the bikes will slow down a little, EBR will likely not change at all as it is the most stock bike out there.

I was wondering if there would be anything announced at AIM. If there was, I missed it. Did anyone else hear anything?

If I had the ability to spend a lot of Hero's money, I think I'd try to hire a young, talented European rider who has experience on the tracks and team him with Geoff. I'd make some serious changes to the team. I don't have enough inside information to know if the team has to be scrapped or just re-worked, but something has to be shaken up. In some ways, I'd like them to keep enough pieces in place to build on what they learned last year, but I'm concerned that they didn't make enough progress to just continue so some rebuilding may be necessary.

Realistically, I wouldn't be surprised to see a major pullback. They may suspend WSBK participation and go back to AMA now that there's a new structure there. If they do that, I hope they do it in a way that sets them up to go back to WSBK. For example, I'd like to see them bring in some young riders and put together a team that would have the ability and interest to eventually move to WSBK.

I think the problem with this year's strategy is they changed everything except the riders when they went from AMA to WSBK. The riders were working with a team they didn't know. The team was working with riders they didn't know. The riders didn't know the tracks and the team didn't know the bikes well enough to set them up for tracks they knew. In hind-sight, I think they should have either used an all European team with European riders or brought the AMA team over with them.

But now that they've made that mistake, they've put themselves in a tough spot. Do they keep everything to build on what they learned (with one very old rider and the other starting on the older side of his prime), do they scrap everything, or do they keep some things and change others?

My gut tells me that their experiences over the past year are bringing them down to earth. I have a feeling they're not nearly as adventurous and optimistic as they were this time last year. I think the company as a whole and the racing program in particular may fall back to a much simpler, less expensive approach and allow themselves to build more naturally rather than pushing things.

One reason that I would really like to see a 750 cc high performance version of the Hastur is that a bike like that could compete in the lower classes and help them develop riders and teams from the ground up rather than jumping in at the top level.

Scott
10-31-2014, 05:40 PM
Looks like both Yates and May should be Superpole tomorrow. Looks like they're finally making some real progress (though it may be too late to matter).

http://resources.worldsbk.com/files/results/2014/QAT/SBK/L3A/CLA/Results.pdf (http://resources.worldsbk.com/files/results/2014/QAT/SBK/L3A/CLA/Results.pdf)

Classax
10-31-2014, 07:49 PM
Geoff May made it Ole Man Yates just missed it but I have a feeling he will be right there during the races! Congrats to everyone!

Scott
10-31-2014, 08:04 PM
Geoff May made it Ole Man Yates just missed it but I have a feeling he will be right there during the races! Congrats to everyone!

Isn't it the top 20? (or did someone have a better time than Yates in a different practice?) Does tomorrow's practice prior to Superpole count or is it already set?

Their positions don't look much better than they have in the past, but at most other venues, there was a bigger gap between them and the people above them. And they tend to do better in races than practice, so it'll be fun to see if they can do something this weekend.

Has anybody heard anything solid on the plans for next year? Since Erik seemed to have doubts at Laguna Seca and they haven't set the world on fire since then, I'd have to suspect it's unlikely they'll stay in WSBK, but I haven't heard anything one way or the other.

I'm a little torn. It would be great to see them stick it out, make some changes and build on what they've learned, but I wonder if it wouldn't make sense to just fall back to Moto-America (particularly now that it should be improved and more closely tied to WSBK).

I'd really like to see some younger riders somewhere. I'd be a lot more comfortable with lower finishes if it seemed like it was part of a long-term plan and building toward something, and Pegram, Yates and May aren't getting any younger.

Hughlysses
11-01-2014, 02:28 PM
Interesting article posted to a German website yesterday:

http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=de&u=http://www.speedweek.com/sbk/news/65926/Nach-Katastrophe-Erik-Buell-plant-eine-Revolution.html&prev=search

Translated highlights from a German-speaking friend:

1- The Italian team is history after this weekend.
2- Larry is about to retire as a racer and will take over as team manager.
3- Larry questions using the ZTL braking system and non-linkage rear shock for WSBK. It is not clear if Erik would consider changing these.
4- Erik says they learned a lot this first year and are not willing to quit. We need more time but 2015 we will be a bit more in front. The other teams make the pace because they have the experience we lack.
5- Erik says their focus with the RX to build a very good road bike, not a race bike- something that performs great and is not so expensive.
6- In 2014 the EBR WSBK effort came all together. New bike, new team, new tracks and our riders are for sure not the fastest in the grid.

Pegram has talked with Haslam but Haslam has better offers the text continues, but maybe Josh Herrin who got kicked from Moto2 is an option, as Dorna wants an American in the Championship. However, that might be not a good idea for Herrin's career. In the end, there might only be May and Yates who are willing to do that painful job (developing the race bikes).

Scott
11-01-2014, 05:04 PM
Interesting article posted to a German website yesterday:

http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=de&u=http://www.speedweek.com/sbk/news/65926/Nach-Katastrophe-Erik-Buell-plant-eine-Revolution.html&prev=search

Translated highlights from a German-speaking friend:

1- The Italian team is history after this weekend.
2- Larry is about to retire as a racer and will take over as team manager.
3- Larry questions using the ZTL braking system and non-linkage rear shock for WSBK. It is not clear if Erik would consider changing these.
4- Erik says they learned a lot this first year and are not willing to quit. We need more time but 2015 we will be a bit more in front. The other teams make the pace because they have the experience we lack.
5- Erik says their focus with the RX to build a very good road bike, not a race bike- something that performs great and is not so expensive.
6- In 2014 the EBR WSBK effort came all together. New bike, new team, new tracks and our riders are for sure not the fastest in the grid.

Pegram has talked with Haslam but Haslam has better offers the text continues, but maybe Josh Herrin who got kicked from Moto2 is an option, as Dorna wants an American in the Championship. However, that might be not a good idea for Herrin's career. In the end, there might only be May and Yates who are willing to do that painful job (developing the race bikes).

Wow! So EWC is the team, correct? And if I read this correctly, the EWC team has a 3 year contract with Hero (awesome to know that commitment is there if true), but the manager is going to be replaced - likely by Pegram.

I had been speculating and wondering if Pegram might become a team manager, but I would have expected it to me in AMA (Motoamerica). I love the idea of someone who knows the bike as well as Pegram being in charge, and if I were Erik, I'd give him whatever he wants. If he believes a different brake is better (and he can prove it), I'd go with his (and other riders recommendations) rather than be married to the ZTL. The ZTL can still be used on the SX and other bikes, but the RX (or maybe RS) should be all about whatever wins races.

As for riders, I'd like to see May and a younger rider. Eslick maybe? As much as I love Cory, I think there are some better potential riders out there (and I'd love to see Cory continue in Motoamerica). I do like Herrin (particularly now that he has some international track experience). The article seems to indicate he wouldn't want a ride on which he might not shine, but I'd have to wonder if he would see it that way. I expect he believes he's a better rider than May, which means he could be running around 15th to start and build from there. If he's good enough and the bike continues to improve, I can see him sniffing top ten by the end of next year and I can't see how he could hope or expect anything better than that.

He had a great situation on the Yamaha bike in AMA, but will he get anything that good again? The Yamaha bikes are clearly better than the rest of the field and unless Yamaha puts him back where he was, he could find himself fighting for top five finishes in the Motoamerica 600 class, and wouldn't top tens in WSBK be preferable to that?

But I'd be interested in a young European rider (though it seems like they're interested in an American rider) who knows the tracks.

Heck, if they really want an American rider, I wonder what Ben Spies is doing these days. . .

Scott
11-02-2014, 02:44 PM
I'm glad I'm not Catholic, because I'd have to confess that as I was watching the second race, I was hoping someone would crash so Geoff could get some points in the final race of the season.

I was curious if there was any real chance of getting Haslam as the above article suggested and found this:

http://www.crash.net/wsbk/news/209764/1/haslam-hints-at-ducati-or-aprilia-for-2015.html

And noticed this: "He also says he may consider a burgeoning WSBK project with a long-term target, thought to be MV Agusta. "

It may be thought to be MV Augusta, but it's a;so possible it's EBR. If nothing else, it indicates he is willing to consider options like that.

Hughlysses
11-02-2014, 05:25 PM
Interesting find there.

I was hoping Roadracing World or another US mag would pick up on the story but nothing has turned up yet. Hopefully we'll see some more info on EBR's plans for next year this week.

Scott
11-03-2014, 09:30 AM
Interesting find there.

I was hoping Roadracing World or another US mag would pick up on the story but nothing has turned up yet. Hopefully we'll see some more info on EBR's plans for next year this week.

Yeah, it's odd that the German article doesn't just offer a vague rumor but rather some real specifics - down to the brakes and suspension Pegram might use.

If there are definite plans to continue (with the details still to be ironed out) and a three year contract with Hero, I wouldn't think that would be a secret (I guess one potential reason to keep things hush, hush would be to get more out of FIM "I don't know if we'll be able to do it again next year. . . maybe if you include these details in the rules that would allow us to be a little more competitive."

Hughlysses
11-03-2014, 10:16 AM
Good news from yesterday, May managed 17th and 16th place finishes in the two races, unfortunately JUST missing out on collecting points.

Bad news from yesterday, Aaron Yates crashed in both races and suffered a broken femur in the second crash (from a Facebook post by Geoff May). Aaron has to have surgery before he can leave. Hopefully he'll be OK, but that's got to be rough on him.

Scott
11-03-2014, 10:27 AM
Good news from yesterday, May managed 17th and 16th place finishes in the two races, unfortunately JUST missing out on collecting points.

Bad news from yesterday, Aaron Yates crashed in both races and suffered a broken femur in the second crash (from a Facebook post by Geoff May). Aaron has to have surgery before he can leave. Hopefully he'll be OK, but that's got to be rough on him.

Ouch! The femur is the big one, right? Considering his age, I have a feeling that could well be Aaron's last race. :frown:

Scott
11-03-2014, 11:51 AM
From the tone of this press release and use of terms like 'debut season', I would infer they intend to come back. I just think it would have been written differently if they knew they would be racing MotoAmerica and not WSBK next year:


http://us5.campaign-archive2.com/?u=b1964295d7f155fa8c439a200&id=8980ad06a4 (http://us5.campaign-archive2.com/?u=b1964295d7f155fa8c439a200&id=8980ad06a4)

Hughlysses
11-03-2014, 12:15 PM
Ouch! The femur is the big one, right? Considering his age, I have a feeling that could well be Aaron's last race. :frown:

Yep, the thigh bone. IIRC, Aaron spent a couple of years recovering from some bad crash injuries prior to signing on with EBR.

Classax
11-04-2014, 11:47 AM
Good news from yesterday, May managed 17th and 16th place finishes in the two races, unfortunately JUST missing out on collecting points.

Bad news from yesterday, Aaron Yates crashed in both races and suffered a broken femur in the second crash (from a Facebook post by Geoff May). Aaron has to have surgery before he can leave. Hopefully he'll be OK, but that's got to be rough on him.

It was good to see them both actually dicing it up for points the whole race not just circulating out their on own. Between now and next year, EBR must find about 35hp and an alien rider to compete at the front. All the new machines will be packing 200hp out of the crate and 235 or so in race trim. Still I like their chances for next year with the limited amount of modifications for 2015.

Scott
11-04-2014, 03:35 PM
Between now and next year, EBR must find about 35hp and an alien rider to compete at the front.

Unfortunately, I think even that is only 2/3rds of the equation. They would also need an experienced, top-level team that's familiar with the bike and rider.

We're clearly not going to get that, and I think we all would admit they're not going to be competing up front, so what are some more realistic goals?

I'd say:

1. They need to be there with a decent budget.

Unfortunately I'm not sure at this moment if even that is going to happen. We certainly haven't heard anything official, and I'm afraid it's as likely as not that they might not even be there.

2. A young, talented rider to join May.

While it would be nice to have a great rider, I'd settle for a young, good rider who can learn and grow into the role. If it's true that they went into this season with a 3 year contract, it's baffling to me that Yates was on the team. Did anyone really expect him to be around 3 years from now even if he stayed healthy? I'd like someone who is at the beginning of his career and improving not someone riding into the setting sun.

3. More power.

This seems to be the no-brainer. I don't know what the technical limitations and options are, but unless they can start the next season with minimum 10% more power, they probably shouldn't even show up.

4. A better, more focused team.

It was frustrating as hell to watch the live-timing this year and see other riders out there turning faster and faster laps while the EBR riders seemed to spend more time in the pits than on the track. With as short as the practice sessions are and as unfamiliar as the riders were with the tracks, they needed every bit of track time they could get.

5. Better development in off-season and non-race weekends.

They need to be at the official practice sessions and they need to be working inbetween races. I don't know exactly what they were doing, but whatever they were doing wasn't helping them progress. If they need to spend twice as much time and effort as every other team out there then that's exactly what they should be doing.

If they can do all those things, I believe they can improve and build for the future. That's all I want from them right now. I don't have any real expectation they'll be on the podium, but I do believe they can improve. And if they can improve, eventually they can be up top.

What frustrates me is I believe many of the decisions they made last year weren't made with a clear eye toward the future. We're likely to have at least one new rider and a partially or completely new team - so much of what Aaron and many of this years team members learned will be gone and they'll be effectively starting over.

The good news is, no matter how much better the competitor's street bikes are getting, I think the new rules will eliminate some of he high-priced components the top guys are using and bring them more down to earth and compress the field. With the right moves, they could be mixing it up in the 10th to 15th positions, and that needs to be their realistic goal for next year.

Hughlysses
11-04-2014, 07:22 PM
I had a conversation with Jens Krüper (Buell enthusiast, racer, "Hillbilly Motors", etc. living in Sweden) on FB this weekend and he had some interesting comments on the WSBK effort. I don't think he'll mind me sharing them. Jens has been personally involved in some big Buell/EBR projects, including a team that absolutely trounced the competition in an European super bike racing series. Here's what Jens said regarding the article from the German website I posted earlier (minor edits made):

1. Good riddance to the Italians.
2. If the riders stay kick their asses into a van with 2 stock RX's and let them ride the tracks 'til they get bloody hands. If they are not willing/able to race in the wet, send them home.
3. Set up a team structure at the EBR Europe headquarters in the Netherlands.
4. Find an operating team manager in Europe with good connections who is great at networking.
5. Make Larry (Pegram) the EBR head of EBR motorsports if you like with the job that the factory supplies whatever the racing team needs for real.
6. Rebuild the rear suspension with a linkage shock system and an exhaust system that is not forcing the team to set up the bike so high to have enough road clearance to the right.
7. If that all is done, and they still have not picked up enough speed let's question the ZTL front brake.

Jens confirmed what is implied in comment 6- the add-on muffler to meet WSBK noise restrictions forced them to compromise the suspension setup to ensure sufficient ground clearance in right-hand turns. IIRC, the EBR 1190 that Jens was involved with used a supplemental muffler mounted under the tail section that avoided this problem. Not sure how they routed the exhaust up from the primary muffler but obviously it worked better than the setup Geoff and Aaron were stuck with for most of this season.

Scott
11-04-2014, 08:30 PM
I had a conversation with Jens Krüper (Buell enthusiast, racer, "Hillbilly Motors", etc. living in Sweden) on FB this weekend and he had some interesting comments on the WSBK effort. I don't think he'll mind me sharing them. Jens has been personally involved in some big Buell/EBR projects, including a team that absolutely trounced the competition in an European super bike racing series. Here's what Jens said regarding the article from the German website I posted earlier (minor edits made):

1. Good riddance to the Italians.
2. If the riders stay kick their asses into a van with 2 stock RX's and let them ride the tracks 'til they get bloody hands. If they are not willing/able to race in the wet, send them home.
3. Set up a team structure at the EBR Europe headquarters in the Netherlands.
4. Find an operating team manager in Europe with good connections who is great at networking.
5. Make Larry (Pegram) the EBR head of EBR motorsports if you like with the job that the factory supplies whatever the racing team needs for real.
6. Rebuild the rear suspension with a linkage shock system and an exhaust system that is not forcing the team to set up the bike so high to have enough road clearance to the right.
7. If that all is done, and they still have not picked up enough speed let's question the ZTL front brake.

Jens confirmed what is implied in comment 6- the add-on muffler to meet WSBK noise restrictions forced them to compromise the suspension setup to ensure sufficient ground clearance in right-hand turns. IIRC, the EBR 1190 that Jens was involved with used a supplemental muffler mounted under the tail section that avoided this problem. Not sure how they routed the exhaust up from the primary muffler but obviously it worked better than the setup Geoff and Aaron were stuck with for most of this season.

:thumb:

Hopefully some of that is already in the works. I certainly hope there's something to the Pegram rumor. Pegram has the knowledge and drive and I can't see him just going through the motions and I couldn't help feeling that's what the 2014 team was doing.

There's SOOOOO much to learn with a project like this, and maybe some of the things they're learning is that they need to re-think how they run this team.

I don't know if I'd wait until the last step to question the ZTL. I'd be questioning it right now (though questions and answers are two different things). It should be relatively easy to run several laps, swap front-ends and run a few more and compare without changing any other variables (other than suspension settings that feel best with the relative front-ends. Same rider, same track, same bike. Which gives faster laps?

The ZTL may be Erik's baby, but I think he'll listen if someone can show him a different set-up can shave X.XX seconds off per lap. And if the ZTL works better, that puts that to rest.

I have to wonder how much of the ZTL debate is based on real data and how much is based on people assuming the ZTL simply can't work so it needs to be changed.

Classax
11-05-2014, 08:11 AM
The riders aren't allowed to ride the tracks in the series except for designated test periods which EBR failed to attend last year. That can not occur in 2015.

The exhaust/suspension thing is shocking to me since everyone but ducati run side exhaust. The termis on the 1199 are among the loudest I've heard. Shocking they don't have the same issues.

Power is their biggest problem. If they can't deliver 220hp they are going to get crushed again.

The ZTL eats up conventional pad materials and harder sintered pads eat up rotors. Until they find the right mix.

Hughlysses
11-05-2014, 08:24 AM
I'm curious about the exhaust too. EBR ran their traditional under-engine exhaust for the first couple of races until they went to Assen in the Netherlands, which has strict noise limits. There they added the side-mounted exhaust, apparently to meet the noise requirement. However, they kept the side mount exhaust after that. One guy on Badweb (Matt from the UK) said the side mount muffler was required to meet homologation requirements since the stock bike has a muffler mounted in that location. I guess the race officials let them skirt the rules for the first 2 races?

If they're having to compromise suspension setup to prevent grounding the exhaust, they need to modify the swingarm to provide clearance, flatten the pipe, re-route it or something. That's crazy.

Hughlysses
11-05-2014, 09:11 AM
BTW- Aaron is apparently recovering OK, but he's got some SERIOUS hardware in one hip. Photo from Team Hero/EBR's Facebook page this morning:

272

Scott
11-05-2014, 10:53 AM
The riders aren't allowed to ride the tracks in the series except for designated test periods which EBR failed to attend last year. That can not occur in 2015.


Absolutely. There are certainly things happening that we don't know and can't understand, but we can see when they're not at tests. And they had various excuses, but the team manager should understand how important that testing is and clear any obstacles.

And while there are very limited opportunities to test on the key tracks, there is time to do a lot of work between testing moratoriums. And to my knowledge there are no restrictions on the time they can spend working on engines (they may be limited in the modifications they can make, but they can spend all season testing those modifications that are allowed under the rules (that's one thing that I don't understand - my assumption of why they were racing Superbike rules rather than EVO was it would allow them more modifications . . . but if they were making modifications under those Superbike rules, the results sure didn't seem to show)


I'm curious about the exhaust too. EBR ran their traditional under-engine exhaust for the first couple of races until they went to Assen in the Netherlands, which has strict noise limits. There they added the side-mounted exhaust, apparently to meet the noise requirement. However, they kept the side mount exhaust after that. One guy on Badweb (Matt from the UK) said the side mount muffler was required to meet homologation requirements since the stock bike has a muffler mounted in that location. I guess the race officials let them skirt the rules for the first 2 races?

If they're having to compromise suspension setup to prevent grounding the exhaust, they need to modify the swingarm to provide clearance, flatten the pipe, re-route it or something. That's crazy.

It certainly seems like the exhaust system is bigger and heavier than it needs to be (considering the whole system of under and side exhausts). That certainly seems like something they can and should improve (to reduce weight, to centralize weight, to improve power, improve clearance and improve aesthetics). The competition seems to create much more compact systems and if they can do it, EBR can too. And particularly if the stock exhaust is required for racing, that seems like it should be a high priority that could offer big improvements with minimal effort.


BTW- Aaron is apparently recovering OK, but he's got some SERIOUS hardware in one hip. Photo from Team Hero/EBR's Facebook page this morning:

272

Wow! Nasty. I was picturing something in the middle of the bone - which would have been bad enough, but that looks like it could limit his mobility even after it's all healed up.

Scott
11-05-2014, 11:17 AM
If Ducati can handle all the pollution and noise requirements of their 1300 cc twin with this Buell-inspired exhaust, I refuse to believe that EBR can't create something smaller and lighter than they're currently using.

273

Hughlysses
11-05-2014, 12:35 PM
After much digging, I found a photo of the exhaust setup that Jens' team used on their bike at Assen. Not pretty, but obviously arranged to provide better right-side ground clearance.

http://www.pegasusraceteam.com/assets/images/db_images/db_A122.jpg

Here's a photo of the Team Hero/EBR setup for comparison:

274

Scott
11-05-2014, 05:38 PM
:thumb:

Cool comparison.

I have to think that the exhaust was designed for AMA rather than Superbike. If you think back, Geoff's first 1190 racebike basically had the 'race-can' that we knew from the 1125. When the 1190RS was uveiled, the extra exhaust seemed like an after thought and that was probably by design. They probably wanted it to be as simple for racers as possible, just take off that that thing that was slapped on there to make it street legal and go.

As we were waiting for the RX to be unveiled, the biggest thing I was expecting was a more Ducati-like exhaust, but we saw we just got a refined version of the RS exhaust. They claimed the tube provided some increased power - and it probably did with just the right tuning - but as you mention they dropped the exhaust for the first couple races.

Then either because of the of track or Dorna requirements, they added a production-like exhaust back on. I have to wonder if we might have seen a different exhaust from the start if they knew they'd have to use something closer to production in WSBK.

Classax
11-06-2014, 01:40 PM
It's really hard for me to believe that the main issue they have with the suspension is that they have to set it up with extra ride height in order to prevent decking the exhaust. There was a guy who had an RX in Europe who had ground down his pegs and case covers, but not the stock exhaust on facebook a while back. I shall have to find that photo. A linkage suspension is better at handling smoother tracks becasue it multiplies the moment arm of the suspension, more shock travel for less wheel movement as oppose to the one for one ratio of a direct set up.

Scott
11-06-2014, 04:19 PM
It's really hard for me to believe that the main issue they have with the suspension is that they have to set it up with extra ride height in order to prevent decking the exhaust. There was a guy who had an RX in Europe who had ground down his pegs and case covers, but not the stock exhaust on facebook a while back. I shall have to find that photo. A linkage suspension is better at handling smoother tracks becasue it multiplies the moment arm of the suspension, more shock travel for less wheel movement as oppose to the one for one ratio of a direct set up.


I agree. There probably are issues with the suspension and exhaust, but if the only issue is the exhaust, Pegram wouldn't be talking about the suspension - he'd be talking about the exhaust.

If Pegram does want to change suspension, I'm nearly certain he believes there would be more important reasons than just the exhaust configuration. But we're making a lot of guesses and assumptions based on very little information. And with a lot of time until the next race and no real information, I love making guesses and assumptions - it's a fun way to pass the time. We just need to keep in mind that's what we're doing.

I strongly suspect that 95% of the discussion of the front brake has nothing to do with how well it really does work or not or any actual data, but everybody assumes it can't work (because if it really worked, everybody would be doing it). So the commentators and everybody on the internet report guesses and assumptions as facts.

Personally, I believe the brake set up would probably work great if the materials and designs had been refined and developed for 40 + years like the competitive bikes' brakes have. Imagine putting an early dual disk set-up (like maybe something from the late '70s) on one of these bikes. It would have serious problems competing - but not because the inherent design is flawed. It would have problems competing because the materials, size, shape etc. etc. etc. hadn't been refined to the level of the competition.

The fact that the radical EBR design can even come close proves to me there's something there . . . but EBR doesn't have the luxury of spending the next 10 years refining it if they want to play at this level. If a more traditional design offers a clear advantage at this moment (and none of us know how true that statement really is at the moment) I think they need to go with what gives them the best chance to compete in 2015.

Hughlysses
11-06-2014, 05:21 PM
I imagine Jens has a little better inside info than the rest of us, but even he may be hearing things 2nd or 3rd hand. I can believe the exhaust is an issue, but like you guys say it doesn't seem likely it's the primary issue with the rear suspension.

Brandon Cretu and Mark Miller of Splitlath racing had VERY good things to say about the ZTL brake at the Isle of Man TT earlier this year. There are audio interviews with both of them that I linked in another thread a few months ago. IIRC, Miller was amazed at how much EBR had improved the brake since they'd run at Macau last year and he said it was absolutely right up there with a WSBK dual disk setup. These guys are about to run Macau again with Splitlath Racing; hopefully we'll see some really good performances from them.

Classax
11-10-2014, 11:29 AM
I'm inclined to believe Geoff May when he says the issue witht he ZTL is the pad material. Finding the right mix of durability, heat disapation, feel, stopping power and fade resistance can't be easy. As for the rear suspension, a link suspension provides more shock throw/travel over a direct setup. So on smoother tracks the shock is using more of its travel on the smaller bumps. I direct set up would use far less throw and basically quiver somewhere near mid stroke and not offer as much efficiency as a linked set up. Rougher tracks more akin to public roads tend to ovewhelm link set ups and delivery very hard rides. A direct set up will over more throw to deal with biger bumps and offer really good feel without a super harsh ride. It also can be set up to squat less under hard throttle.

Hughlysses
11-11-2014, 09:47 AM
Ha! I knew my memory wasn't quite THAT bad. Here is a photo showing a later configuration of the "quiet" race exhaust used by the Pegasus Racing Team at Assen on their 1190RR:

http://pegasusraceteam.com/assets/images/db_images/db_20110516_411.jpg

It uses the under-engine muffler but adds a secondary resonator under the tail section. The exhaust is routed up through the swing arm so there are NO right side clearance issues.

Hughlysses
11-11-2014, 09:48 AM
Another photo showing more details:

http://pegasusraceteam.com/assets/images/db_images/db_20110516_51.jpg

Scott
11-20-2014, 08:58 PM
This is encouraging:

https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=auto&tl=en&js=y&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.speedweek.com%2Fsbk%2Fnews%2F67 032%2FSuperbike-WM-2015-Noch-11-freie-Plaetze.html&edit-text=&act=url

I had resigned myself to the idea that they probably just wouldn't be racing Superbike this year.

I like Niccolò Canepa and Herrin. If we get two of the three from May, Canepa and Herrin along with some improvements to the bike and a better team, next year could be fun.

Herrin is probably the most exciting in terms of his long-term potential, but his knowledge of the tracks and bikes is limited, so he would probably require more time to get up and running than either of the other two.

Canepa has experience with the tracks and Superbike on a Ducati. Riding the other big twin is probably as close as he can get to having actual EBR experience. He has been reasonably competitive and he's still young, so his best years are probably still to come.

May has a full year Superbike experience now and extensive experience on the bike, so he can probably do best right out of the gate and with a better bike and team, he should be able to build on the progress he made last year. I'd like to see Geoff get a real chance to do something, because he's earned it, but honestly, I'm not sure if he has as much potential as the other two. It would be fun to see him as the veteran teamed with one of the younger guys.

There are probably a lot of other talented riders out there also (Eslick? I'm curious what kind of terms he left on. I haven't heard much mention of him from anybody at EBR, so maybe things didn't end great).

I hope Pegram is a done-deal, because I think he's got the experience and drive that could really help (it would be fun to watch on his TV show also:wink:).

I'm just giddy that it seems likely we'll still have a team next year and can't wait to hear the details.

Hughlysses
11-21-2014, 09:30 AM
^ Larry Pegram posted on Facebook a day or two ago that he was sitting in a lounge in the airport in Paris, France, so hopefully that's confirmation that he'll be running the team. I asked Geoff May on Facebook earlier this week what the plans were for the EBR WSBK team this year and he responded "everything is still up in the air". Hopefully he does get at least one more season in the seat.

Has anyone seen ANYTHING about Aaron's condition? Geoff posted a photo of Aaron recovering in the hospital after surgery to fix his hip. Sounds like this is almost certainly the end of his long career.

Hughlysses
11-21-2014, 09:39 AM
More news just posted to Badweb:

----------------------------------
Interesting for sure…

http://www.moto.it/superbike/sbk-fabrizio-a-jerez-sull-aprilia-del-team-red-devils.html

"Instead, start a new chapter for Niccolo Canepa will race in 2015 in the ranks of the Hero EBR team , a team that will be completely new , especially from the technical point of view . After the first year of apprenticeship EBR seems willing to get serious , strong support of the Hero Indian producer for more than six million motorcycles a year."

Scott
11-21-2014, 10:02 AM
Awesome! Sounds like, given the "Go big or go home" option, they chose "Go big". :biggrin:

Scott
11-21-2014, 10:06 AM
My heart says: "Bring Geoff back to finish what he started."

My head says: "Canepa and Herrin in WSBK and May and West in MotoAmerica would be really cool."

Hughlysses
11-21-2014, 10:18 AM
I'd be happy with either of the above. It does seem like it'd be smart to keep a guy around who REALLY knows the bike.

Scott
11-22-2014, 02:24 AM
The more I think about Canepa, the more excited I get for 2015.

It seems like he's a very talented rider who has been steadily progressing throughout his career. Last year was his fullest and best Superbike season, and he did it on an EVO Ducati.

http://www.worldsbk.com/en/rider/Niccol%C3%B2+Canepa

We know from direct comparisons between the stock Panigale and stock 1190RX, that they're in the same ballpark, so, hopefully, an EVO Panigale and EVO 1190RX should at least be close.

But Canepa was also with a very good team. The EBR team probably won't be as up to speed as Althea was, but hopefully Canepa's experience will make him less dependent on the team.

Bottom line - Canepa has shown potential on a good bike with a good team. If the team and bike are close to being where they need to be, Canepa should be able to compete for a top 10 finish or two next year. And if rider and team can even sniff a top 10 next year, that will be something they can really build on.

From there, you can start attracting sponsors and riders to make a real run.

Classax
11-22-2014, 11:44 AM
I think the competition will be much closer this year. EBR still needs about 30 more hp to be at the average but its going to be fun to see what they do.

Hughlysses
11-22-2014, 12:27 PM
If they're spending the $$ to completely change the team and recruit a rider of this caliber, you have to figure they'll get serious about whatever changes are necessary to make the bike competitive as well.

Scott
11-23-2014, 07:16 AM
I think the competition will be much closer this year. EBR still needs about 30 more hp to be at the average but its going to be fun to see what they do.

Yeah, I think we'll see the top teams becoming more mortal as their very expensive, exotic mods become a thing of the past. The more average teams will probably be less affected since they're likely riding bikes closer to stock already.

Also, it's been a while since I looked at the rules, but as I recall, the four-cylinder bikes were allowed under traditional rules to make more modifications than twins. That means Ducati (and EBR) should become more competitive just from the more level playing field in terms of modifications.

The Japanese bikes will likely blunt the effect some by incorporating some previously Superbike only components into their street-bikes, but that will be limited.

As long as EBR can field a serious team (as recent rumors suggest they will) it should be a lot of fun!

I don't expect them to be truly competitive. I'm just hoping the can move from back-markers to mid-pack. If they can do that, they won't be a joke anymore and that will help them get the attention, sponsorship money and top-riders they'll need to compete with the elite teams in 2016, 2017 and beyond.

Hughlysses
11-24-2014, 06:15 AM
Another update from the German Speedweek site:

Original: http://www.speedweek.com/sbk/news/67222/Buell-(EBR)-Das-naechste-Himmelfahrts-Kommando.html

Google translation: https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=de&tl=en&js=y&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.speedweek.com%2Fsbk%2Fnews%2F67 222%2FBuell-%28EBR%29-Das-naechste-Himmelfahrts-Kommando.html&edit-text=

It seems to say Pegram will both run the team and ride one of the bikes. That seems a little far-fetched to me. I think I'll wait on the official announcement.

Scott
11-24-2014, 09:05 AM
Another update from the German Speedweek site:

Original: http://www.speedweek.com/sbk/news/67222/Buell-(EBR)-Das-naechste-Himmelfahrts-Kommando.html

Google translation: https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=de&tl=en&js=y&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.speedweek.com%2Fsbk%2Fnews%2F67 222%2FBuell-%28EBR%29-Das-naechste-Himmelfahrts-Kommando.html&edit-text=

It seems to say Pegram will both run the team and ride one of the bikes. That seems a little far-fetched to me. I think I'll wait on the official announcement.

:shock:

I suspect he may be a 'placeholder'. They may have Canepa signed and they're still looking for a second rider, but figure Larry can stand in until they find one.

If he will be riding, I'm not thrilled by that idea for a few different reasons. He's over 40 and he's never ridden the European tracks. After his learning season last year, I'd feel fairly comfortable that May could do better than Pegram with a brighter potential future than Pegram. And if they want to go a different direction than May, I can understand that, but I'd go younger, not older.

I would also like Pegram, as manager, to be be focused on the big picture and not dealing with the major distraction of also riding. Will his decisions be based on what's best for the team, or what's best for him?

On the other hand, he is the only EBR rider to score Superbike points and he did that in his only race (but in a very special circumstance on a track that was familiar to him).

There also is an intriguing aspect to the idea that he will be intimately aware of what the the bike's limitations and strengths are without getting that information second or third hand.

If the argument were to be made that Canepa is the competitive rider and Pegram is the development rider - out there making sure the bike is as good as it can possibly be while being less concerned with winning races, you might be able to sell me on that.

I suspect that, if this is true, it might have more to do with Foremost Insurance money and Pegram's TV show than the best move to be competitive. And the thing with that is: Without Foremost Insurance money and Pegram's TV show, EBR might not be in WSBK, so I'll take that over not being there, but I'd like to see an effort that's key focus is long-term success, and I'm not convinced Pegram's the best rider for that goal.

. . . but it should be entertaining.

Hughlysses
11-26-2014, 05:55 AM
This posted about 5:50 AM EST this morning:

293

Scott
11-26-2014, 09:38 AM
This posted about 5:50 AM EST this morning:

293

:thumb:

I infer that if they will be announcing plans, that at least confirms they will have plans, and that's the big thing I care about right now.

Hughlysses
11-26-2014, 10:48 AM
10:45 AM EST and still no announcement... :twitch:

Scott
11-26-2014, 01:38 PM
10:45 AM EST and still no announcement... :twitch:

:lol: Relax. "Shortly" could mean some time next week.

Here are the odds I'll put on what it will include:

Canepa as rider - 70%
Pegram as manager - 70%
Pegram as rider - 40%
May as rider - 40%
Herrin as rider - 10%
Somebody else - 10%

Hughlysses
11-26-2014, 05:05 PM
:lol: Relax. "Shortly" could mean some time next week.

Here are the odds I'll put on what it will include:

Canepa as rider - 70%
Pegram as manager - 70%
Pegram as rider - 40%
May as rider - 40%
Herrin as rider - 10%
Somebody else - 10%

Yea, "shortly" is a very subjective word.

Interesting predictions. I can't remember if I posted here, but May posted to FB a few days ago that he had no riding or testing coming up in the "near future" and he was hanging out in Italy. Later posts showed him snow skiing. I took that to mean he hadn't been sent home yet. Another guy took that to mean he's not riding for EBR next year. I guess we'll see.

Scott
11-26-2014, 06:33 PM
Yea, "shortly" is a very subjective word.

Interesting predictions. I can't remember if I posted here, but May posted to FB a few days ago that he had no riding or testing coming up in the "near future" and he was hanging out in Italy. Later posts showed him snow skiing. I took that to mean he hadn't been sent home yet. Another guy took that to mean he's not riding for EBR next year. I guess we'll see.

Interesting. From the EBR/Hero Facebook post, we would have to infer that the team has been decided but not announced yet.

I can't speak for Geoff, but if I knew that I didn't have a ride for next year, I think I'd be working on finding one (probably in the US) and not skiing.

Though that could be wishful thinking. I'm finding myself hoping it's May and Canepa - Particularly since the rumor of Pegram riding popped up.

I think think May and Canepa would compliment each other nicely.

Though

Scott
11-26-2014, 07:21 PM
Looks like Herrin is off the table: http://www.roadracingworld.com/news/josh-herrin-signs-with-meen-motorsports-to-race-yamaha-in-2015-motoamerica-supersport-series/

Scott
12-03-2014, 06:16 AM
Have I missed any news? I haven't been watching and I'm not sure if I missed it or there just hasn't been anything.

If it is what has been reported, I don't know why they just won't make it official.

Hughlysses
12-03-2014, 12:25 PM
You haven't missed anything as far as I can tell. Nothing on EBR's FB page, northing on Team Hero/EBR's FB page, nothing on Larry Pegram's FB page, nothing on Canepa's FB page. I also do a google search every morning and nothing new has turned up on it since last week.

"Shortly" my a**... :biggrin:

Hughlysses
12-03-2014, 02:09 PM
Looks like the rumor is now official:

http://www.roadracingworld.com/news/pegram-to-be-riderteam-manager-for-team-hero-ebrs-2015-world-superbike-effort/

(Still nothing on Team Hero/EBR's FB page though.)

Scott
12-03-2014, 03:08 PM
Looks like the rumor is now official:

http://www.roadracingworld.com/news/pegram-to-be-riderteam-manager-for-team-hero-ebrs-2015-world-superbike-effort/

(Still nothing on Team Hero/EBR's FB page though.)

:thumb:

It's cool to know they'll be participating, but I have to admit I'm skeptical about Pegram riding. This same announcement with May in place of Pegram as a rider would have me really excited. I hope they'll at least find some money to keep May on EBR in Moto-America.

. . . and did you notice Canepa is "delighted", Munjal is "delighted" and EB is "delighted" :lol: Whoever is writing these press releases needs to break out a thesaurus.

I'm excited to see what happens, and I really like Canepa as a rider and I like Pegram as a manager. I just wish I could feel a little more confident that this sort of screwy sounding rider/manager scheme they're trying will actually work.

And I certainly hope they have some hardware improvements coming as Erik seems to imply. Without some additional power, I don't think any shake-up in riders or team will do much.

Hughlysses
12-03-2014, 03:38 PM
. . . and did you notice Canepa is "delighted", Munjal is "delighted" and EB is "delighted" :lol: Whoever is writing these press releases needs to break out a thesaurus.


Now that you mention it, there does seem to be an excess of "delight" in the EBR camp. :lol2:

Classax
12-04-2014, 11:38 AM
I'm delighted they are delighted but there is still the issue of about 30HP that needs to be found and made reliably. I'm actually looking forward to the racing this year, I would have liked it better if it were purely under EVO rules but still the prospects of closer to street guise is better this coming year than ever. It should be fun and EBR should make up a little ground just by virtue of the new rules.

Scott
12-04-2014, 02:17 PM
I'm delighted they are delighted but there is still the issue of about 30HP that needs to be found and made reliably. I'm actually looking forward to the racing this year, I would have liked it better if it were purely under EVO rules but still the prospects of closer to street guise is better this coming year than ever. It should be fun and EBR should make up a little ground just by virtue of the new rules.

I'm starting to warm to the idea of Pegram riding and managing. IMO, it's all about the bike right now. As you say, they clearly need more power, but I suspect they need numerous other improvements. Until they have a better bike, they won't get better riders, and until they get better riders, they won't get the kind of attention they need to attract sponsors and make a real run.

Unfortunately, it sounds like last year was a mostly wasted year. As frustrating as that might be EBR can't really change the fact that they're still at square 1. But while they may still be at square 1, they can strive to avoid repeating the mistakes of last year. My impression is that one of the biggest problems last year was an apparent disconnect between factory and team and team and riders. I frankly felt like the factory really wanted to do well and the riders really wanted to do well, but the team just seemed to be going through the motions and almost seemed to have a contempt for the factory and riders.

Pegram should serve as a conduit to, hopefully, eliminate that disconnect. Pegram doesn't have a magic wand, but hopefully he can get everybody rowing in the same direction and that's the first, critical step.

Since it's all about the bike, Pegram will hopefully be the one to identify what needs to happen with the bike and make sure it happens. He won't be able to point any fingers. If he thinks a different brake is needed, let's do it. He won't have anyone to hide behind if he asks for that, gets it, and still can't get it done.

I'm expecting continued struggle, but looking forward to 2015 as much or more than I was looking forward to 2014. I was holding my breath then and seriously concerned that even qualifying could have been a problem. We know now that the bike can run in the 15-20 range, so let's hope they can build on that with the modest goal of running 10-15 by the end of the season.

Hughlysses
12-04-2014, 07:42 PM
Cross-posting from Badweb, the winter testing ban has been lifted: http://www.asphaltandrubber.com/wsbk/world-superbi ke-test-ban-lifted-2015/ (http://www.asphaltandrubber.com/wsbk/world-superbike-test-ban-lifted-2015/)

Hopefully the new EBR team can make good use of this.

Scott
12-05-2014, 06:10 AM
Cross-posting from Badweb, the winter testing ban has been lifted: http://www.asphaltandrubber.com/wsbk/world-superbi ke-test-ban-lifted-2015/ (http://www.asphaltandrubber.com/wsbk/world-superbike-test-ban-lifted-2015/)

Hopefully the new EBR team can make good use of this.

:thumb: Let's hope they have the money and commitment to take advantage of this (I had questioned throughout last year if they really had the money and commitment necessary, but the fact that they're back next year indicates they have more than I suspected).

This may be the first big test for Pegram. If he's serious, there should be an EBR truck parked at Jennings GP or other southern track in January.

Another interesting element of this is how concerned the other teams are about the rules changes.
From what we know EBR shouldn't be losing anything and they will be working improvements and a stronger bike than they had last year while the top teams are working with weaker bikes than they had last year.

Scott
12-05-2014, 06:18 AM
I took a little time yesterday looking at the brake modification restrictions for WSBK, and that seems to be one of the few areas under the new rules in which components can be completely swapped out (if anyone else wants to take a look and offer their interpretation, that would be cool).

From my interpretation, they can put a completely different set of brakes on the race bike without making any changes to the street bike.

IF alternate designs offer improvements, they can implement those designs on the race bikes and then incorporate those improvements on street bikes later - rather than being forced to put them on a street-bike first.

Classax
12-05-2014, 11:11 AM
I hope they take advantage of this and come out swing in the first round with a pair of superpole appearances and an inter team fight to the finish for 14th and 15th and both races to get on the board with points right from the start!

Scott
12-05-2014, 01:27 PM
I hope they take advantage of this and come out swing in the first round with a pair of superpole appearances and an inter team fight to the finish for 14th and 15th and both races to get on the board with points right from the start!

I think that's a very realistic, achievable and appropriate goal. One Superpole appearance all last season is really one of the more pathetic stats.

And if they can qualify in the top 20, they should be able to finish around 15 just though attrition.

While that may seem a low bar, it would show they're as good or better than last year's team and give them a solid start to build on.

I'm hoping for (at least Canepa) to be finishing near 10th by the end of the season. If that happens, I'll be very happy and able to put 2014 behind me.

Hughlysses
12-05-2014, 02:06 PM
Cross-posting from Badweb; interview with Canepa:

https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=auto&tl= en&js=y&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww. moto.it%2Fsuperbike%2Fsbk-canepa-hero-ebr-una-sfid a-che-mi-affascina.html&edit-text=&act=url (https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=auto&tl=en&js=y&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.moto.it%2Fsuperbike%2Fsbk-canepa-hero-ebr-una-sfida-che-mi-affascina.html&edit-text=&act=url)

The says they will be testing in Florida (Jennings?) and New Orleans next month.

Scott
12-05-2014, 04:48 PM
Cross-posting from Badweb; interview with Canepa:

https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=auto&tl= en&js=y&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww. moto.it%2Fsuperbike%2Fsbk-canepa-hero-ebr-una-sfid a-che-mi-affascina.html&edit-text=&act=url (https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=auto&tl=en&js=y&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.moto.it%2Fsuperbike%2Fsbk-canepa-hero-ebr-una-sfida-che-mi-affascina.html&edit-text=&act=url)

The says they will be testing in Florida (Jennings?) and New Orleans next month.

:thumb:

Maybe I'm just a sucker for their slick BS but that article's getting me excited.

the todd
12-07-2014, 09:42 AM
I know Geoff May, he's lives near me, he used to have a motorcycle shop that rebuilt the motor on one of my bikes, I happy to see Buell moving forward into wsbk, to bad I can't watch it on tv anymore.

A clip of May starting from pit lane at Big Kahuna

http://youtu.be/sgaL2IgxVJY

Scott
12-08-2014, 09:41 AM
I know Geoff May, he's lives near me, he used to have a motorcycle shop that rebuilt the motor on one of my bikes, I happy to see Buell moving forward into wsbk, to bad I can't watch it on tv anymore.

A clip of May starting from pit lane at Big Kahuna

http://youtu.be/sgaL2IgxVJY

:thumb: Cool video!

CBS Sports will be showing Moto-America. Hopefully there will be some competitive EBR's (I'd love to see Cory and Geoff on a well-financed team, but that seems unlikely at the moment.)

I can get WSBK, but I had to pay extra for the package through Comcast.

Classax
12-08-2014, 04:46 PM
I like Bien's no commercials coverage!

the todd
12-08-2014, 07:31 PM
I thought you guys might like to see this clip also, If I remember correctly these were for sale for $37,500 I was surprised to see these that day, They are from the first 100 made.

p.s the flag bike is amazing.


http://youtu.be/jZMBA_cD3VU?list=UUjjN0tuIGFm2vYmJStMO7iw

Scott
12-10-2014, 10:25 AM
I thought you guys might like to see this clip also, If I remember correctly these were for sale for $37,500 I was surprised to see these that day, They are from the first 100 made.

p.s the flag bike is amazing.


http://youtu.be/jZMBA_cD3VU?list=UUjjN0tuIGFm2vYmJStMO7iw


:thumb: I do love that flag bike. I think they should consider doing something like that as a special edition (it wouldn't have to be the same design, but a red-white an blue theme would be cool and I think it would be popular).

I just realized we're only a little over two months from Phillip Island. Wow! That's coming fast.

the todd
12-11-2014, 09:16 PM
:thumb: I do love that flag bike. I think they should consider doing something like that as a special edition (it wouldn't have to be the same design, but a red-white an blue theme would be cool and I think it would be popular).

I just realized we're only a little over two months from Phillip Island. Wow! That's coming fast.

I know, i cant wait to see the EBR's go at it, I just added the bein channel so I can watch, to bad I had to get 34 other channels that I'll never watch.

Scott
12-12-2014, 06:41 AM
I know, i cant wait to see the EBR's go at it, I just added the bein channel so I can watch, to bad I had to get 34 other channels that I'll never watch.

Yeah, I was himming and hawwing because I had no interest in 99.9% of what I was getting, but when I thought about it, I would have paid the price just for the Superbike racing and nothing else, so I tried not to get hung up on the apparent wastefulness.

Hughlysses
12-18-2014, 09:42 AM
Niccolo is in Jennings, FL testing on the EBR today! He posted this pic to his Facebook page a few minutes ago:
316
Caption (translation by Facebook): "Come on the track! I do not know if i am more afraid of turtles, crocodiles or of the speed limit!! It starts!!!!"

Scott
12-18-2014, 08:10 PM
Niccolo is in Jennings, FL testing on the EBR today! He posted this pic to his Facebook page a few minutes ago:
316
Caption (translation by Facebook): "Come on the track! I do not know if i am more afraid of turtles, crocodiles or of the speed limit!! It starts!!!!"

:thumb: Cool on many levels. Great sign and response and cool to know they're getting some testing in.

I'd love to see some photos of the actual testing if any pop up.

Hughlysses
12-19-2014, 11:22 AM
According to this article:

http://www.sharinglook.com/index.php/automotive/mo tor-bike/item/111457-team-hero-ebr-undergoes-overh aul-for-2015

they are testing at Jennings and NOLA while Canepa is in the US. I haven't found any photos yet.

Scott
12-19-2014, 01:45 PM
According to this article:

http://www.sharinglook.com/index.php/automotive/mo tor-bike/item/111457-team-hero-ebr-undergoes-overh aul-for-2015

they are testing at Jennings and NOLA while Canepa is in the US. I haven't found any photos yet.

:thumb:

I'm really curious what kind of front brake they're running. There must be some other track-day riders at the tracks, so maybe someone will get a shot even if we don't get anything 'official'.

Hughlysses
12-19-2014, 09:38 PM
Cross-posted from Badweb:

According to a Facebook post from a Jennings GP instructor, Niccolo Canepa just destroyed the circuit record, previously held by Ben Bostrom, on his first visit there on the EBR.

A friend of mine on Facebook posted the quote from the Jennings instructor; apparently Niccolo's lap was ~0.7 seconds faster than Bostrom's record!

Scott
12-20-2014, 06:50 AM
Cross-posted from Badweb:

According to a Facebook post from a Jennings GP instructor, Niccolo Canepa just destroyed the circuit record, previously held by Ben Bostrom, on his first visit there on the EBR.

A friend of mine on Facebook posted the quote from the Jennings instructor; apparently Niccolo's lap was ~0.7 seconds faster than Bostrom's record!

Nice! A good starting point at the very least.

Scott
12-20-2014, 10:29 AM
Did a little bit of searching. Apparently Canepa ran a 1.12.305 http://www.sttforum.com/showthread.php?p=139947

The official track record is by none other than Geoff May 1:14:51: http://www.jenningsgp.com/thetrack.htm

The apparent unofficial track record is 1:13.72 http://www.roadracingworld.com/news/ben-bostrom-under-unofficial-lap-record-as-testing-concludes-at-jennings-gp/



And I saw the cut-off for 'Pro' classification is 1:30, so, yeah, pretty impressive. But we should certainly hope he's going to be faster than AMA riders if he's going to have a chance in WSBK. On the other hand, Geoff May has spent a lot of time at Jennings including testing on bikes that were likely very similar to his WSBK (if you recall, Geoff, Aaron and Blake Young were all riding EBR's at Jennings prior to the 2013 AMA season), and unless they kept it secret, Geoff has never been below 1:14 on an EBR.

So I think we have some evidence that Canepa, on an unfamiliar bike and unfamiliar track can beat Geoff May on a very similar bike (which Geoff was familiar with on a track Geoff was familiar with) by probably 2 seconds or more.

That gives us some idea of just how good a rider Canepa is and how important a rider is to making a bike go fast. Based on what we know about how a stock EBR compares to a stock Pinigale and based on what we know about the EVO rules, I have to believe that EBR/Pegram racing don't have any technical barriers to giving Canepa a bike that is comparable to what he rode last year.

Bottom Line - If Pegram and EBR can do their job, I believe Canepa can score top tens in WSBK.

And if an EBR can score top tens in WSBK, the era of the American Superbike will have truly begun.

Hughlysses
12-20-2014, 12:21 PM
It will be interesting to see how much of that hot lap was due to Canepa's ability and how much was due to changes to the bike. Obviously a LOT of it HAD to be due to Canepa, but I suspect EBR didn't bring him all the way to the US just to ride the same exact bike they'd been unsuccessful with in WSBK 2014.

I wonder if they've moved onto NOLA today? It sure would be nice to see some photos or other confirmation of their efforts.

BTW- I found a screen cap pic of the original post to Facebook by the Jennings instructor. The original post has apparently been removed from that instructor's Facebook page. Maybe he wasn't supposed to let the cat out of the bag?

Classax
12-20-2014, 01:19 PM
I have said all along that Yates and May are astounding riders of incredilble skill and they both really were not handed the bikes they needed to really compete in WSBk and yet manage to pull just with in a hair of scoring points when the bikes finished races, but good as they were they were never at the pace of the aliens at the front and likely were never going to be. Not to mention the fact that they both wound up having to go under the knife in their effort to score points. They litterally gave us their sweat, blood and tears. Hats off to both of them for a true grit performance. The trouble is the guys capable of top 10 pace are simply 2-3.5 seconds a lap faster than they are.

If Canepa can go out and run two seconds a lap faster than May every race that's the difference between finishing 16th through attrition and banging bars for 7th or 8th in just about every round with a superpole appearnece each and every time. Now the top 5 are still 1 to 1 1/2 seconds further up the track which may as well be an eternity but a 2 second a lap improvment would have put the EBR's ahead of ALL the EVO's and into the bottom of the superbikes on a basically stock machine. Its very exciting. Canepa is a guy who knows how to ride V twins and my excitement is to hear his thoughts on the EBR in comaprison to the Ducatis. That will be truly telling.

Jennings is the kind of track the RX was made to run on though. Rough, short, and techical. Its not really a track where being down on power would make any difference. The longer, smoother more sweeping tracks of WSBk have shown the RX's many signature design cues that make it so potent at a place like Jennings are not as relevant as advanatages.

That said I agree with you Scott if Pegram hands him a bike that can survive the entire race, they should be able to score points with realtive ease by virtue of making superpole for better starting positions and better race laps. Go back to any round last year and cut 7 tenths off all of the Yates and May times and you have EBR's in 11 superpoles instead of 1 and scroing points in all but the five rounds, with all three RX's scoring points in the Laguna round. They were that close despite all the technical problems.

Top 10s might be ideal but consistent top 15s should be a lock if all goes as planned if Canepa can deliver and stay healthy. He may even tow Pegram into the points as well.

Classax
12-20-2014, 01:40 PM
It will be interesting to see how much of that hot lap was due to Canepa's ability and how much was due to changes to the bike. Obviously a LOT of it HAD to be due to Canepa, but I suspect EBR didn't bring him all the way to the US just to ride the same exact bike they'd been unsuccessful with in WSBK 2014.


The bike they had in WSbk was down on power true but still only about half a second per lap out of 14th in all but 5 rounds. They missed superpole with that bike by less than .7 seconds 11 times and by less than .4 seconds 7 of those 11. So yes the bike is down on power, they do need to come up with a new pad matierial which they seem to have licked in the last two rounds, and they could do with a less green more race freindly porting of the heads and they certainly need to go to TI rods to pick up some reliabilty and 500 or 800 more RPM, but the bike wasn't exactly a total bust either. I actually would have had him ride the exact bike to get his thoughts and then turn him lose on a machine with any improvements.

As for NOLA its getting a ton of rain today and tomorow. No testing I would think there today, Monday looks great weatherwise though.

Diablo1
12-21-2014, 06:52 AM
The bike they had in WSbk was down on power true but still only about half a second per lap out of 14th in all but 5 rounds. They missed superpole with that bike by less than .7 seconds 11 times and by less than .4 seconds 7 of those 11. So yes the bike is down on power, they do need to come up with a new pad matierial which they seem to have licked in the last two rounds, and they could do with a less green more race freindly porting of the heads and they certainly need to go to TI rods to pick up some reliabilty and 500 or 800 more RPM, but the bike wasn't exactly a total bust either. I actually would have had him ride the exact bike to get his thoughts and then turn him lose on a machine with any improvements.

As for NOLA its getting a ton of rain today and tomorow. No testing I would think there today, Monday looks great weatherwise though.

WSBK rules don't allow changing rods to titanium if the production bike uses steel. Rods must be similar material and same weight. EBR would need to homologate new production - can they afford to build the new number of bikes required? Were any of the DNFs in 2014 caused by rod failure? In 2015 WSBK, you can change cams, but pistons and valves must remain as production.

Hughlysses
12-21-2014, 09:22 AM
Posted to Niccolo's Facebook page this morning:

317

(Traveling to Disney Orlando) "After 4 days of test, the track record in Jennings and many positive feelings, is Holiday time!"

:thumb:

Hughlysses
12-21-2014, 09:30 AM
One more pic...

318

Scott
12-21-2014, 01:50 PM
One more pic...

318

:lol: That's great!

So we've got a hot of the bike - looks like one of Pegram's AMA bikes - but no way to see what brakes they're using.

Hughlysses
12-22-2014, 08:38 AM
Ha! I just struck gold- a post-Jennings test interview with Canepa:

http://paologozzi.gazzetta.it/en/2014/12/22/english-nick-canepa-another-genoa-explorer-discovers-america-ebr-ok/

One big highlight- They tested both dual disk and ZTL front brakes; the record was set with dual disks BUT he sees the advantage of the ZTL and they are still working to develop it.

Scott
12-22-2014, 09:46 AM
Ha! I just struck gold- a post-Jennings test interview with Canepa:

http://paologozzi.gazzetta.it/en/2014/12/22/english-nick-canepa-another-genoa-explorer-discovers-america-ebr-ok/

One big highlight- They tested both dual disk and ZTL front brakes; the record was set with dual disks BUT he sees the advantage of the ZTL and they are still working to develop it.

Nice! I hope they give both set-ups a real try and go with what works best. From my reading of the 2015 rules, I believe they're allowed to use a dual-disk set-up without first adding them to the street bike. I just hope Erik doesn't let his pride get in the way. What works works. The goal has to be winning above all else, and if 3 years from now EBR's are fitted with dual disks and winning races, oh well.

If the ZTL was a big selling point, I'd be a little more reluctant to change, but at this moment, it seems like any advantage the rim-brake might offer in performance is offset by a general perception by consumers that it doesn't work. If there were absolutely no difference between the two set-ups, I'd be going with a dual set-up just because of the marketing advantage. If the dual-disk system really works better, then it's a no-brainer.

Scott
12-22-2014, 08:20 PM
Roadracing World Article: http://www.roadracingworld.com/news/canepa-pegram-test-team-ebr-hero-superbikes-in-florida-and-louisiana/