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Hughlysses
06-27-2015, 10:25 AM
I picked this up from an article at Cycle World about the Victory 156 Project, a one-off bike built by Roland Sands using a prototype water cooled Victory V-twin (which appears to be heavily based on the Indian Scout water cooled V-twin).


Honda’s Jeff Tigert topped timesheets with a 4:17.259 despite a crash in his second run today. He was bruised and battered, but not seriously injured. “Normally, you take it pretty easy your first run, but I noticed that the clouds were starting to get pretty thick,” Tigert said. “I decided to put in a hard one so I’d have a decent time just in case the weather got bad.” He had done a 4:15 in the same section earlier this week. The team intends to repair the bike in time for race day. Travis Newbold, at 4:19.954, was second following a strong showing on the Buell-1125R-based Ronin, which was running an EBR 1190RX engine. Bruno Langlois was third with a 4:22.997 on a Kawasaki ZX-10R, followed by Canet with a 4:23.859 and Ducati Multistrada 1200-mounted Jamie Robinson with a 4:25.463. Canet is competing in the exhibition class because Project 156 is using a prototype V-twin engine; he is about 20 seconds ahead of the second-fastest qualifier in his class. The other four top qualifiers riding production-based motorcycles are in the Heavyweight class.

So the Ronin was second overall in the motorcycle class and nearly 4 seconds quicker than the Victory! Hopefully they'll do even better in the actual race.

kneepucker
06-29-2015, 02:40 PM
The bike finished second overall. Pretty damn good results if you ask me.


7
Jeffrey Tigert
10:02.735
Torrance CA
Honda


10
Travis Newbold
10:18.514
Arvada CO
Ronin


11
Bruno Langlois
10:19.738
Ajaccio
Kawasaki


17
Jamie Robinson (R)
10:30.453
San Pedro CA
Ducati


18
Ray Thornton (R)
10:35.234
Edgewood NM
BMW


34
Stefan Dolipski (R)
11:14.226
Chicago IL
BMW


76
Fabrice Miguet (R)
14:58.898
Argentan
VOXAN



The Victory/Roland Sands bike seemed to have an issue keeping grip on the front tire, they lost it both times in the same area, a high speed right hander. I didn't want to jinx them, but I kept telling myself that bike's geometry didn't seem right for a full on road-course, too rear heavy, not keeping enough heat in the front. Hopefully they'll be back next year, maybe as part of an EBR/Victory/whatever team.....once Victory purchases EBR. As part of that dream, they'll ask me to pilot for them too! Pikes Peak is definitely on my bucket list.....

Scott
06-30-2015, 08:27 AM
Impressive. After all the hype about Victory, Ronin turned out to be the real American bike to watch.

Hopefully this will get the attention of some people at Victory if they already weren't thinking it would be easier to buy than develop a sportbike.

kneepucker
06-30-2015, 01:53 PM
Lets also keep in mind that the Honda CBR1000RR that took 1st had full Honda factory support, so I'm guessing it was nearly WSBK spec.

Hughlysses
06-30-2015, 02:27 PM
I wonder how a tuned 1190SX would have done compared to the Ronin? The Ronin's girder front fork may not be the best for handling, and even if it has advantages over a USD fork (I'm not sure there are any, I'll just give it the benefit of the doubt), there's much more knowledge out there about how to set up conventional forks.

kneepucker
07-01-2015, 11:49 AM
I wonder how a tuned 1190SX would have done compared to the Ronin? The Ronin's girder front fork may not be the best for handling, and even if it has advantages over a USD fork (I'm not sure there are any, I'll just give it the benefit of the doubt), there's much more knowledge out there about how to set up conventional forks.

Why not an RX? I would choose that over the SX for a roadcourse any day - If anyone wants to crowdfund me, I'll run my 1190RX there next year!!!
As for answering your question about the front forks, just look at any pure track bike / race bike for your answer. The Girder fork's only advantage is less dive under braking, but I really thing a traditional USD fork would perform better on that course.

Hughlysses
07-01-2015, 11:54 AM
^ Good question. It is odd that a Buell 1125 CR was run a couple of years ago, the Ronin this year, and Victory's bike was a naked, while the Honda that placed 1st appeared to be a fully faired roadracing motorcycle. Anyone know what other motorcycles competed this year?

Scott
07-01-2015, 01:19 PM
I wonder how a tuned 1190SX would have done compared to the Ronin? The Ronin's girder front fork may not be the best for handling, and even if it has advantages over a USD fork (I'm not sure there are any, I'll just give it the benefit of the doubt), there's much more knowledge out there about how to set up conventional forks.

I thought the same thing. Ronin was obviously trying to showcase their bike, but I'd bet that if you put the same rider on a stripped SX, the results would be the same or better.


Why not an RX? I would choose that over the SX for a roadcourse any day - If anyone wants to crowdfund me, I'll run my 1190RX there next year!!!
As for answering your question about the front forks, just look at any pure track bike / race bike for your answer. The Girder fork's only advantage is less dive under braking, but I really thing a traditional USD fork would perform better on that course.


:thumb: If you start a fund, I'll kick in a few bucks.

As for "Why the SX rather than RX", I think it's just a style thing. This is closer to a dirt-track race than a road-race, so it's not about tucking in and going for high-speed and low wind resistance on a long, smooth straight - it's more about wrestling the bike around curves dirt-track style. I'm sure an RX could do a good job, but it just seems to fit an SX more sylistically . . . and the fairing is probably just unnecessary weight.

kneepucker
07-01-2015, 02:24 PM
A ZX10R (Jeremy Toye riding it if I recall correctly) won it last year, the first year bikes with Clip-on handlebars were allowed. Previous to that, all bikes run at PPIHC had to come from the factory with dirt-bike style handlebars, and the Ducati Multistrada was dominant. Now that its fully paved, and corner grip is paramount, you'll only see full-on sportbikes winning this, because it basically is a one-way road course....sure the corners are a bit tighter and slower, but I've ridden thousands of miles in the Colorado mountains on everything from an FJR1300 to a cruiser, to sport bikes, and I can tell you that the little differences that make sport bikes faster than naked bikes give you that extra confidence to push harder. Can't remember the last time a naked bike beat me on a track.....
Scott - watch an onboard of the hillclimb, and then rethink the "fairing is just unnecessary weight" thing.... there are plenty of high speed sweepers and straights where the aerodynamics are a huge factor. Even the radiator positioning on that Victory 156 project was creating lift on the front end, when a little downforce might have kept that front tire in contact better - I hate to speculate, but watching the two crashes made me really dissect that bike's build......it certainly wasnt rider error.

Hughlysses
07-03-2015, 11:32 AM
Very cool piece by the guy who rode the Ronin:

http://747rider.blogspot.com/2015/07/well.html?m=1

kneepucker
07-06-2015, 11:09 AM
After reading this article - hearing all the drama he had during the run (running off course, wheely-ing, limp-mode, etc..) gives me confidence I could seriously compete on an 1190RX. I've watched the on-board video from Toye's winning run last year and it really made my blood boil to give it a go.

Here's the words from Newbold's run this year:d to much exiting a hard corner. Ass end gone. I was tossed out of the seat holding on to the bars and twisting that ****ing thing for dear life, somehow
All week the bike launching from starts was the talk of the pits. Every time it launched it spun, crouched and wheelied as I feathered the clutch. This time it nearly **** the bed. Starting on a cold engine was not a good idea. after a mile of throttle massaging it finally started to rev. Then she revved to hard an my lower body founds its position. Whew! The back was total grease on the gas. Nothing I did to accelerate could keep it from stepping out. In one long horse shoe corner I felt it start to go, without thinking I stood it up and rode it into the drainage ditch. I kept it pinned and rode out never missing a beat. Up through the double u switch backs sliding every corner. Near the Devil's Playground as I approached my cheering fan section the bike went into limp mode. Over heated and probably as angry at me as I was at it the thing went retard and limped all the way past the downhill of Bottomless Pit. It finally cooled down and regained full power. I lofted the front wheel in every shift and made my way to Carl's Corner. It took everything I had to not completely
let off the gas. Two corners left. Everything I had was given. I crossed the line. The last dirt on the mountain is in the summit parking lot. I pitched that thing sideways to celebrate but this beast has no steering. I hit the locks and dumped it over the highside.

Hughlysses
07-06-2015, 05:24 PM
It sure sounds like a stock RX (or at least an RX with race pipe and ECM) would have done significantly better. The Ronin must have had cooling issues at full power because they deliberately started with a cold engine and the thing still got hot and lost power until it cooled off during the run.

If you could start with a properly warmed up engine and then NOT have it overheat half-way up the mountain, you could have probably eaten the Honda that won for lunch. And that's not counting the superior handling of a BPF with ZTL brake and ultra light weight front wheel.

Hey- if you need crowdfunding for next year, I'll kick in $20. :thumb:

kneepucker
07-07-2015, 03:46 PM
I'll be making my decision on July 23rd when EBR is sold. If I can get availability of race parts and spares, I am in 100%. I will need a race ECM and spare brake/chassis components. Everything else I am fabricating myself. Weird thing is I'm actually going to be in Colorado on the 22nd when all the drama happens, just having a nice vacation, but maybe also making a few runs up the mountain too!

Hughlysses
07-09-2015, 07:24 PM
Video from the Ronin run:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XuDQdWJETnU

zviadi
07-10-2015, 03:38 AM
Some ridiculous drop after the finish...
The lowest point of the bike - gear lever.

Hughlysses
07-10-2015, 06:43 AM
^ Yes, crazy. I found it odd that it did not have a race pattern shifter.

Plotter
07-12-2015, 11:45 AM
I'll kick in some money if the thing gets setup..

Scott
11-18-2015, 12:40 PM
Here's the new Victory concept:

http://www.motorcycledaily.com/2015/11/production-version-of-victory-project-156-v-twin-engine-debuts-in-new-concept/

690

Looks sort of cool for a "power cruiser", but it also makes it clear that Victory isn't serious (at least at this moment) about making a true sport-bike. Looks like EBR remains the only American sport-bike.

Plotter
11-18-2015, 03:48 PM
693

Looks like the Victory answer to the Diavel

Scott
11-18-2015, 05:05 PM
Looks like the Victory answer to the Diavel

That's what I thought. I've never been much of a fan of the Diavel - I like Ducatis for what they do well - light, great-handling bikes - and I never understood why they wanted to make something more like a Harley.

I do like the 156 more than most Harleys and Victories. And I even think it's a little cleaner than the Diavel, but I was hoping the 156 would have been more compact and more like the XR1200 or old-school Buells.

I've been waiting my whole life for a serious American sportbike. EBR finally got there, then poof. Here's hoping Bruce . . . or somebody . . . brings back our American sportbike soon.

Scott
11-18-2015, 05:09 PM
But it's interesting from the point of view: "Could Victory be interested in bidding on EBR in December?" With the rumors of the 156, I had thought "No, they're making their own sportbike."

But now that we've seen the concept bike, it's clear there's still room in the victory line-up for EBR.

Scott
11-18-2015, 05:17 PM
I was just reading some of the comments around the internet on the 156 and they're not good. It's clear people were hoping for something more like an EBR.

Hughlysses
11-19-2015, 08:56 AM
Victory is supposed to unveil another concept bike called the "Combustion" next month in New York. The website page on these bikes has a heading "Project 156 > Ignition > Combustion" as if the 3 bikes are a progression towards a production model. The press info on the "Ignition" (the picture shown above) says this is the first bike to use the production engine based on Project 156. It'll be very interesting to see if the "Combustion" is significantly different from the "Ignition" and how much closer to something fit for production it is.

Doosh
11-19-2015, 09:03 AM
I was just reading some of the comments around the internet on the 156 and they're not good. It's clear people were hoping for something more like an EBR.

Imagine this: people want to ride a motorcycle, not saddle up as if in for a gynecological exam.

Hughlysses
11-19-2015, 09:52 AM
Imagine this: people want to ride a motorcycle, not saddle up as if in for a gynecological exam.

:lol2:

Hughlysses
11-19-2015, 01:59 PM
I had heard this a while back- Polaris Industries hired several former EBR employees. I just checked out Polaris at LinkedIn and noticed a couple of key senior people from EBR are now employed there. That could mean (a) Polaris has already got everything they'd want from EBR or (b) these former EBR guys are telling Polaris "you REALLY need to put a bid in on EBR next month".

Scott
11-19-2015, 03:26 PM
Victory is supposed to unveil another concept bike called the "Combustion" next month in New York. The website page on these bikes has a heading "Project 156 > Ignition > Combustion" as if the 3 bikes are a progression towards a production model. The press info on the "Ignition" (the picture shown above) says this is the first bike to use the production engine based on Project 156. It'll be very interesting to see if the "Combustion" is significantly different from the "Ignition" and how much closer to something fit for production it is.


It will be interesting to see what the Combustion is. My guess based on the names and schedule is that the 156 was the 'prototype', the ignition is the 'concept' and the Combustion is the actual production bike. And if it is a different bike, I'd expect it to be different from the Ignition in the way an Indian Chief Classic is different from an Indian Chief Vintage. The Ignition seems like a very professionally rendered bike and I think it is very close to the final version. If I were a betting man, I'd bet the Combustion will be an Ignition with turn-signals, license-plate holder etc.

I think we're seeing the future of Victory motorcycles and that future is evolutionary rather than revolutionary (and still keeps them firmly planted in the 'cruiser' market). It's a cool cruiser. Perhaps one of the coolest cruisers I've ever seen, but still a cruiser and still something that a large portion of motorcyclists would never consider.

It seems clear to me that the public was hoping for something more revolutionary . . . and something much more like EBR. If, up until yesterday, Polaris had zero interest in bidding on EBR, I would sort of think, after seeing the general disappointment (as opposed to presumably expected excitement), the public gave them in response to their big, new thing (in which they likely invested a lot of time and money) should make them start thinking about buying that company that can make the bike everybody wants them to make.

Polaris currently has a big, gaping hole in their line-up and EBR fits that hole perfectly (not just with the products they currently offer, but the products that were indicated to be in development).

I have no idea if they're really thinking about it, but I think they absolutely should be thinking about it.

Scott
11-19-2015, 03:27 PM
Imagine this: people want to ride a motorcycle, not saddle up as if in for a gynecological exam.

:lol:

yamatr3
11-19-2015, 07:30 PM
That Victory looks like a parts bike. The headlight is from a Yamaha MT03, the frame is total Scout, the gas tank looks like it came off of an old Yamaha Virago 920. They slapped a different seat and forks on it and called it good. Total lack of inspiration. What class is this bike in?

This was supposed to be a standard with a hot rod motor. Front controls? Who wants those on a hot rod. Even the Harley XR1200 had the foot pegs in the correct position. Complete Garbage!

kneepucker
12-16-2015, 11:46 AM
http://www.roadracingworld.com/news/pikes-peak-international-hill-climb-officials-mandate-one-piece-handlebars-for-2016-in-the-name-of-safety/

Looks like someone would need to field an SX this year if they want to compete. PPIHC just reinstated the ban on bikes with clip-ons, effectively eliminating sport bikes from contention.