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Jon / AF1 Racing
09-27-2012, 10:36 PM
Since there is little to no information about this model, here is what I would like to see from an EBR adventure bike.

1) Weight: The 1190RS is very light weight. Granted it is $45000 for the lightest version, but the platform is proven to be lean. Getting into the adventure market with a full sized bike that one person can pick up from a past 90 degree dump in loose rocks would be huge. Short of that, I would love to see it come in at under 450lbs dry.

2) Performance: No doubt it will have more power than really needed in this segment. What will be important to me is how well they tune the motor to lug up a trail, through a water crossing, or more realistically, through stop and go city traffic.

3) Handling: 99% of the people who buy this bike will be far more likely to blaze a trail to the local grocery on any given day, than up a rocky accent to a secluded campsite. Because of this, the bike needs to have a slightly stiff setup to provide sporting handling on the asphalt.

4) Traveling: For me, nothing travels like an adventure touring bike. The seating position, the load capacity, the amenities, and the ability to take any dirt road you see, can't be beat. I just hope this bike travels well.

5) Fuel Range: I can survive with 6 gallons, but 8 is pretty darn cool. A majority of the weight down low would be nice too, so we are off to a good start here.

6) Tubeless: Plug and go.

Hughlysses
09-30-2012, 04:45 PM
It will be VERY interesting to see what EBR comes up with for this segment, with competition like the 2013 Ducati Multistrada and KTM 1190. Can't wait to see EBR's ADV bike. :burnout:

MAXIMUM
10-01-2012, 09:54 AM
Erik is known for innovation...I'd like to see some things that nobody else is doing.

1. How about a quick change wheel system that would allow you to have multiple wheel preset up for different types of adventures...and swap within a couple minutes.

2. A unique fork and brake setup that would allow for interchangeability between 17" and 19" front wheels.

3. Custom spec'd side cases that have replaceable impact bumpers for those low speed tip overs...which would be cheaper than replacing the whole bag every time your son drops your bike (did I say that out loud?).

And with the talk (on Speed channel) of EBR developing some electronic assist for the race bike in the off season...how about some sweet electronic assist components for the AX.

nilla
10-01-2012, 12:03 PM
lets start big pic. is the engine gonna be a single or twin?

Twinbuells
10-01-2012, 12:56 PM
lets start big pic. is the engine gonna be a single or twin?

Twin for sure,probably updated 1125

Ed / AF1 Racing
10-01-2012, 01:00 PM
It'll be the 1190 engine.

It'll be tuned for its intended purpose, probably with less max HP, and more usable torque, and midrange power. Maybe different cams, and compression ratio.

Ed / AF1 Racing
10-01-2012, 01:01 PM
I really like all those ideas....the quick wheel swap would be cool. 17s for city/street riding, then throw on some 19s with some hard core knobbies.



Erik is known for innovation...I'd like to see some things that nobody else is doing.

1. How about a quick change wheel system that would allow you to have multiple wheel preset up for different types of adventures...and swap within a couple minutes.

2. A unique fork and brake setup that would allow for interchangeability between 17" and 19" front wheels.

3. Custom spec'd side cases that have replaceable impact bumpers for those low speed tip overs...which would be cheaper than replacing the whole bag every time your son drops your bike (did I say that out loud?).

And with the talk (on Speed channel) of EBR developing some electronic assist for the race bike in the off season...how about some sweet electronic assist components for the AX.

Doosh
10-01-2012, 06:42 PM
1. How about a quick change wheel system that would allow you to have multiple wheel preset up for different types of adventures...and swap within a couple minutes.
2. A unique fork and brake setup that would allow for interchangeability between 17" and 19" front wheels.

Realistically, I think you already have it.

A real wheel swap on the 1125 is less than 10 minutes even taking your time and safety wiring things, and if you go chain drive like the 1190 it's even faster. The Buell wheel system uses all captive spacers and a fixed axle -- it couldn't be easier! The chain kit is pretty straightforward, too.

Same for the front -- adjusting the fork height is 6 bolts, and there's already 1" of movement available on the 1125r, and I have no doubt the 1190 isn't much different.

Scott
10-01-2012, 08:54 PM
I'd like a the fairing to be a little larger than the Uly's for highway riding, but other than that, give me a Uly style bike with the 1190 engine and hard bags, and that bike could go anywhere. Highway, trail, Dragon. A bike like that would have amazing versatility and take you anywhere you could imagine going.

ponti1
10-02-2012, 06:36 AM
I think the details of an ADV bike are going to be pretty well defined, so how EBR implements them will be the really interesting thing. To me, pretty much everything said above sounds reasonable, so let's hope we get some additional details soon! I am interested to see what "look" the bike is given. I have of course the Tenere and other similar ADV bikes in my mind, and also the Ulysses. Then again, who says Erik and Company will go with conventional look at all?

Scott
10-02-2012, 08:30 AM
And can I just say:

http://www.yamaha-motor.com/assets/content/images/600/10MS_FJR1300A_sil_S1_46906b10.jpg

'Sport-Tourer' my ass. Sure the FJR is a well designed bike and if 95% of my riding was on the highway, I'd consider something like that. But I can't imagine an FJR rider getting to a really windy back-road and thinking: 'Gee, I'm really glad I have this 650 lb motorcycle with me instead of something smaller and lighter.'

The FJR may be sporty compared to a Gold-Wing. . . but a Harley Street-Bob would be sporty compared to a Gold-Wing.

I want a bike that can not only get me somewhere, but be fun once it gets there. The original FJ 1100 was a lot closer to what I'd like than the FJR, but it seems that once manufacturers try to make a 'tourer' out of a bike it just grows and grows until it's not a lot of fun anymore.

I'm really hoping the 1190AX will help bring back the idea that a bike that can handle distance riding can be a lot of fun also.

Barkbuster
10-04-2012, 05:36 PM
I`d like to see a beefier alternator to power heated gear and extra lights. the large fuel range is good too. 250 miles to a tank is good 300 better!

Hughlysses
10-14-2012, 10:00 AM
I`d like to see a beefier alternator to power heated gear and extra lights. the large fuel range is good too. 250 miles to a tank is good 300 better!

A beefier alternator without the problems of the 2009/2010 1125's would be appreciated. The setup Triumph is fitting to their latest 1200 Tigers seems to be the ultimate solution. As I understand it their alternator is mounted externally and is similar to an automotive alternator in that it uses field windings rather than permanent magnets. This allows the field current and therefore the output to be modulated rather than just bleeding the excess output current to ground like has to be done with most motorcycle alternators. Oh yea, the output is 950 watts (!!!) compared to 432 watts for a 2008 1125.

More fuel would be good but I imagine it will be a challenge with the fuel-in-frame design. You can't really make the frame wider- widening it at the front would make it more prone to crash damage and/or restrict the steering lock and widening it at the rear would make the ergonomics worse. I guess they'd have to make it taller or find some place else to add some more fuel capacity. Hey- why not "fuel in swingarm" since it's not used for oil on the 1190's?

Hopefully the fuel mileage with an "adventure" tuned 1190 engine will be closer to XB levels which would help a lot with the range.

Barkbuster
11-25-2012, 08:19 PM
Yes the 1125 frame already holds more fuel than the XB frames so 50 mpg would solve the range issue. BMW`s new motor claims 125 hp and 92lbs.ft torque. Can the 1190 make those #`s, be smooth, lighter, and as versatile, not to mention beat there price!?

finedaddy1
11-27-2012, 02:12 PM
"Ed / AF1 Racing" I have a question for you. Being a dealer when you guys were interested in carrying the EBR line, did Erik or any representative from EBR pay you guys a visit and show you any rendering of future bikes?

If I were a dealership and I wanted to carry a certain brand I would want to see some goods before I signed my name on the dotted line.

There is no doubt in my mind that he's going to come up with something that has the motorcycling world grinning from ear to ear.

996DL
11-28-2012, 04:22 PM
BIG numbers, flawless build quality, price them no worse than BMW's and have had them flogged to death for reliability / performance parameters to be met and exceeded, well before the mc journalists / John Q Public ever gets a chance to sample them, and NO TEETHING HICCUPS period.

With this, the AX will be at least to start, a very successful low production sales success. IMO

You go Erik and team !

996DL

2010 XB12X

Doosh
11-28-2012, 04:31 PM
and have had them flogged to death for reliability / performance parameters to be met and exceeded,

The thing is with the 1125r, it wasn't the flogging that caused reliability problems. It was guys riding them like pussies that created all the issues. Fueling, stators, brake "pulsing", you name it. All a function of guys NOT riding the bikes instead of flogging them.

Hughlysses
11-30-2012, 10:24 PM
The thing is with the 1125r, it wasn't the flogging that caused reliability problems. It was guys riding them like pussies that created all the issues. Fueling, stators, brake "pulsing", you name it. All a function of guys NOT riding the bikes instead of flogging them.

Hopefully EBR's testing regimen for new models will include flogging AND riding them like wussies. :lol:

Hellgate
12-02-2012, 03:01 PM
The thing is with the 1125r, it wasn't the flogging that caused reliability problems. It was guys riding them like pussies that created all the issues. Fueling, stators, brake "pulsing", you name it. All a function of guys NOT riding the bikes instead of flogging them.

I didn't ride mine like a "pussy" and it a had ALL of the problems you mentioned, along with a host of others. Care to explain?

Doosh
12-03-2012, 10:49 AM
I didn't ride mine like a "pussy" and it a had ALL of the problems you mentioned, along with a host of others. Care to explain?

The truly systemic problem with these bikes, the stator, fails when the bike is ridden consistently below 6k RPM. Unfortunately, this is a common condition for guys that commute, or ride in traffic, or have modified exhausts and "keep the revs lower" so the bike isn't so loud in the neighborhood.

When you do that, you get less cooling oil on the stator, it overheats, and the insulation fails.

It's not so much a function of doing the occasional track day, it's a function of not CONSISTENTLY ALWAYS keeping the bike wrung out. After owning 5 of these bikes, with over 60,000 miles in the saddle of one, and having NEVER had a stator failure, I'd say I'm in a position of knowledge on this topic.

What track is that in the top picture?

Hellgate
12-03-2012, 07:48 PM
The Omega at Willow.

The stator was the least of my worries, clutch slave X3, Speedo X2, boiling fuel, sending units, broken front brake bolts, etc, etc.

Of the 18 months I owned mine is was in the shop for 10 of those months. I was only able to put 3,200 miles on the bike. And it was ridden hard. Not just the occasional track day.

Doosh
12-04-2012, 08:18 AM
clutch slave X3

Fixed with the new slave from EBR or Oberon. The real issue was the original piston would rub a rough spot on the slave cyl, and then guys would just replace the seals, but that wasn't the cause of the issue. The issue was that rough spot on the slave cyl cutting the seals on the piston.

Polishing the slave cyl and piston with 1000 grit and keeping it well lubricated solved the problem. Or, of course, just using a better part. The Oberon uses a delrin cyl sleeve, EBR uses a stainless (hard) cyl. Harley's final answer was a hard anodized piston and slave cyl, and that also works.


Speedo X2

The sensor, or the cluster? I've noticed the clusters aren't so durable. I go through about one every season or so -- basically it just gets shaken into failure on our rough tracks. They are made by magneti marelli and aren't the most durable part, I agree.


boiling fuel

This is something the stock bikes are prone to. I don't have the issue on my DSB-spec bike. The cooling system is totally passive -- no fans.


broken front brake bolts

Now * THIS * is something I've never heard about. You are saying a front rotor mount bolt literally sheared off? Because, I don't believe it. Those are grade 10 (I think) bolts on the front, and they have an almost unimaginably high shear strength relative to what the rotor is likely to present even under extreme braking loads.

Now, the drive bushings will wear, and they can wear quite incorrectly and cause issues, especially if you are using the OEM rotor mounting hardware, which more or less sucks across the board. That was fixed circa 2009 or so with the race mount kit, which holds the rotor close to the wheel instead of away from it.

I run Ti rotor mount bolts and stock steel drive bushings. My bolts don't even really show wear (the drive bushings do, though), so I think something was wrong with the way yours was set up. Mind you, my rotor is every color possible, so I'm getting a LOT of heat into the system -- more than most.


Of the 18 months I owned mine is was in the shop for 10 of those months. I was only able to put 3,200 miles on the bike. And it was ridden hard. Not just the occasional track day.

$10 says a lot of the issues were the shop's knowledge and quality of work. That's arguably still Harley's fault, but I suspect if you had taken your bike to a decent mechanic the issues would have been fixed correctly the first time.

Hellgate
12-04-2012, 08:24 PM
fixed with the new slave from ebr or oberon. The real issue was the original piston would rub a rough spot on the slave cyl, and then guys would just replace the seals, but that wasn't the cause of the issue. The issue was that rough spot on the slave cyl cutting the seals on the piston.

Polishing the slave cyl and piston with 1000 grit and keeping it well lubricated solved the problem. Or, of course, just using a better part. The oberon uses a delrin cyl sleeve, ebr uses a stainless (hard) cyl. Harley's final answer was a hard anodized piston and slave cyl, and that also works.

i'm glad to hear there is a fix. At 16 miles, yes, 16 miles my first on crapped out. In 2009 no one had a clue what to do.

the sensor, or the cluster? I've noticed the clusters aren't so durable. I go through about one every season or so -- basically it just gets shaken into failure on our rough tracks. They are made by magneti marelli and aren't the most durable part, i agree.



This is something the stock bikes are prone to. I don't have the issue on my dsb-spec bike. The cooling system is totally passive -- no fans.

dsb bikes are passive? Mine had two fans and would piss fuel out the swingarm.



now * this * is something i've never heard about. You are saying a front rotor mount bolt literally sheared off? Because, i don't believe it. Those are grade 10 (i think) bolts on the front, and they have an almost unimaginably high shear strength relative to what the rotor is likely to present even under extreme braking loads.

yup. I'd post the repair receipt but i sold the bike back in '10 along with all of the docs.

now, the drive bushings will wear, and they can wear quite incorrectly and cause issues, especially if you are using the oem rotor mounting hardware, which more or less sucks across the board. That was fixed circa 2009 or so with the race mount kit, which holds the rotor close to the wheel instead of away from it.

I run ti rotor mount bolts and stock steel drive bushings. My bolts don't even really show wear (the drive bushings do, though), so i think something was wrong with the way yours was set up. Mind you, my rotor is every color possible, so i'm getting a lot of heat into the system -- more than most.



$10 says a lot of the issues were the shop's knowledge and quality of work. That's arguably still harley's fault, but i suspect if you had taken your bike to a decent mechanic the issues would have been fixed correctly the first time.

i went to two shops, the second cowboy hd was outstanding. Eric, had been to troy through all of the 1125r specific training. He would let me in the back of the shop and we'd trouble shoot together. On several occasions we called buell, "hd", and was told, and i quote, "your customer needs to simply by the full race ecu and the full exhaust. In other words, "we can do any more." i was finally told by the shop, "we had 21 1125rs here. I'm sorry we don't have a solution. I hate to say it but sell it." so did. I can't tell you the amount of time micah and i spent trying to get it to run right. I finally had to have a custom exhaust made and she ran great with a micah tune. Then the slave died again. I stripped her of my mods and sold her.

five.

Hoak
07-31-2013, 02:59 AM
I was very excited to discover this forum and registered specifically for this thread and the bike it prospectively promises.

I'd love to see Erik and his team turn their talent toward the development of an ADV motorcycle again -- but with focus given to a full-context dedicated ADV design rather then re-purposing a street bike...

The XB12X (and now more so the EBR platform) is not really viable with respect to the challenge of a truly capable 'World Crosser' ADV machine as implied in the original topic, to wit there are 'deal breaking' limitations with respect to:

· endurance
· economy
· fuel capacity
· mass centralization getting priority treatment over low CG
· turning performance given priority over stability
· suspension travel
· complexity
· wheel size & geometry
· load capacity
· ruggedness
· maintenance autonomy

The XB12X was an exciting approach to this market and met some of these challenges with unique aplomb; for its displacement it was powerful, economical, low maintenance, handled better then most in the class on the paved and groomed surfaces -- but it really wasn't up to the chore of taking the kinds of sustained abuse dished out on difficult off-road terrain at speed with the handling requirements for same without exhausting the Rider -- especially over long distances.

Of course it's my pet wish we'd see EBR turn their talent to really kicking the competition to the mat, something that could easily be accomplished following the very successful approach taken in large displacement V-Engine rally bike design -- like those raced from Paris to Dakar previous to the 450cc displacement limitation; these were and remain the fastest all-terrain machines on the planet; perhaps Buell could even employ one of the US Highland V-Twin Engines (http://www.ushighland.com/engines/) to that end...

Love the thread, the man, the machines!

Hughlysses
08-02-2013, 08:42 AM
Glad to see this thread spring back to life after so long. I am also really looking forward to the release of the AX. From what I've seen on the internet, it was originally intended that all three new EBR bikes (RX, SX, and AX) would be released at the same time. However, the latest info indicates only the RX will be released this fall, so I guess we'll have to wait until next year to see the AX.

The current range of "heavy" ADV bikes available in the US includes the BMW GS, Triumph Tiger, KTM 1190, Suzuki V-Strom, Yamaha Super Tenere, and Ducati Multistrada (if I've missed any, please add them). Then there's a range of middle-weight ADV bikes as well. Each of these bikes has many design compromises regarding an array of goals, including pavement vs. dirt performance, fuel range, durability, weight, complexity, ease of service, etc.

The only thing we really know about the AX so far is that it'll use the same 1190 EBR engine (EBR personnel have flatly stated the engine is now built by EBR and has no Rotax components) as the RX and SX. Given that EBR is a small company with limited resources, I imagine it will be much like the previous XB12X in that it'll share many components besides the engine with the RX and SX. That means the AX will likely have 17 inch wheels front and rear, and be towards the road-oriented end of the ADV bike spectrum. That suits my needs perfectly, although I'm sure there are plenty of people who'd prefer it to be closer to the KTM or BMW.

I'm sure the EBR design team learned a lot of lessons with the Ulysses; it'll be interesting to see what new design features turn up in the AX.

Hoak
08-03-2013, 01:17 AM
I'd much prefer to discuss what the AX could or should be, rather then prognosticate what it might be based on history and assumptions -- and perhaps influence the outcome. There are plenty (too many imho) pavement biased compromise designs that will just make the AX another 'me too' bike to add to the clutter of the category.

I'd like to see the EBR Team tackle a serious and studied approach to all-surface performance and endurance machine that at the very least meets the requirements of the mean ADV Rider (http://www.advrider.com/). What this is not, and can not be:

· scooter size front wheel
· twitch sport bike geometry
· fragile and expensive fuel reservoir frame
· tall top heavy engines
· suspension travel under 12 inches
· water fording depth below ground clearance
· enough brake swept area to stop a C130
· a center of gravity in low earth orbit
· any fragile critical parts what-so-ever
· excessive power at the cost of economy
· fuel capacity of a drag racing machine

I suppose 'adventure' now-a-days can mean going on any paved groomed path not visited in the last 24 hours where cell phone connectivity with mom might be lost for a few minutes. That doesn't even begin to cut it for me; and while I grant I'm not an average rider; I'd say I have the kind and number of miles behind me, the experience, skill and some of this is what many ADV Riders covet or aspire to -- is part and parcel of what they seek in exploration and adventure and an ADV machine that will get them there (and hopefully back again).

While an ADV bike is obviously going to have to make some compromises; one priced in the range where EBR might execute doesn't have to give up much -- a PD Rally machine could keep up with some of Erik's fastest road machines on pavement and be a lot safer and more forgiving; but even the most 'prepped' XB12X can't even go where a wallowing top heavy turd like a Triumph 800XC can go no less keep up with a dedicated ADV design like a PD Rally bike that will fly across unbelievable terrain at speeds over 140mph where you couldn't even take an XB12X at a tractor crawl in tow.

Hughlysses
08-06-2013, 02:20 PM
Hoak- interesting commentary. I'm sure EBR could design and build one. It's a whole 'nother question if such a bike would be profitable for them. The only competition a bike like that would have might be the big KTM, but that would seem to be a pretty limited market segment.

I've been very happy with the focus of the XB12X; ~90% paved and ~10% dirt. For all practical purposes it's a sport-tourer, except with fairly long travel suspension that provides a cushy ride and doesn't get disturbed by rough pavement in the twisties, and it can be dropped on a hard surface without destroying $500-$1k worth of plastic parts. I'll be very happy if the AX is designed similarly.

Scott
08-10-2013, 08:22 AM
I don't think it's logical to expect that a company as tiny as EBR would make a complete clean-sheet world-beating adventure bike that appeals to the hardest of hard-core any time soon. But I think it is logical to expect an updated, improved variation of the Ulysses based on the 1190. In the coming years, I'd expect that model to evolve and improve and become more of a stand-alone model that appeals to people who want to beat the snot out of it (and it's likely they will be selling that bike alongside a dirt-bike as well). But, come on, this is a company that has made a little over 100 bikes. They have limited resources and they need to share components until they can grow into a larger company. Let's not expect the moon and the stars from them.

Hoak
08-10-2013, 10:04 AM
Hoak- interesting commentary. I'm sure EBR could design and build one. It's a whole 'nother question if such a bike would be profitable for them.
I'm fairly sure they could too; but with respect to profitability, an honest objective look at the best selling and highest margin bike in this segment is rather telling: the BMW F800GS, with second place going to the Triumph 800XC... And not by a small margin; these bikes that are functional clones that are selling more than all other 'ADV' bikes combined... Something to at least explore, understand and consider?


The only competition a bike like that would have might be the big KTM, but that would seem to be a pretty limited market segment.
The 'Big KTM' is definitely not a bike that is competition for what I have in mind or would ever want. At over a quarter ton, with traction control, drive-by-wire throttle, ABS, cigarette lighter, AC, more plastic then the Mattel Toy company, and less then eight inches of suspension travel to suspend all that weight, ridiculous horsepower and butt load of foo-foo features makes the KTM 1190 ADVENTURE R about as effective an ADV bike as a fifteen year old dairy cow would make an effective steeplechase horse. You can ride or even race 60's Cafe Racer on an MX track and call it a MX bike; that doesn't make it one by any reasonable or objective estimation.

While the concept of 'Adventure' may be substantially subjective:

ad·ven·ture noun \əd-ˈven-chər\

Definition of ADVENTURE

1 a : an undertaking usually involving danger and unknown risks
_ b : the encountering of risks <the spirit of adventure>

2 : an exciting or remarkable experience <an adventure in exotic dining>

I find what's implied in the Wikipedia entry for Adventure (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adventure) more qualifying with respect to the design considerations being discussed here. So, for me the premise of 'Adventure' in a motorcycle's designation places some objective prerequisites on a motorcycle's design to consider it an 'Adventure' bike rather then just another load of marketing bullsh*t.

By way of illustration: would you take a KTM 1190 ADVENTURE R on a risky enterprise, with uncertain outcome, to locations unknown and unexplored, where the autonomy and capability of said machine would be instrumental and decisive to the outcome of said enterprise? I don't know about you, but if the adventure included substantial off-road travel, or even travel a substantial distance from a KTM dealer it would be near the bottom of, if not last on my list. And while KTM does make a bike that is more suited...

http://bikerscafeblog.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/11/5142601714_5e18978894_b-540x368.jpg264

$40k is a bit high for what's offered...


I've been very happy with the focus of the XB12X; ~90% paved and ~10% dirt. For all practical purposes it's a sport-tourer, except with fairly long travel suspension that provides a cushy ride and doesn't get disturbed by rough pavement in the twisties, and it can be dropped on a hard surface without destroying $500-$1k worth of plastic parts. I'll be very happy if the AX is designed similarly.
And well you and others might be; though if it's based (even loosely) on the 1190RS it is going to have a long way to go to even be competitive with the XB12X in any context of 'Adventure' that exceeds a race to the gas station, the next stop light, or the nearest mechanic.


I don't think it's logical to expect that a company as tiny as EBR would make a complete clean-sheet world-beating adventure bike that appeals to the hardest of hard-core any time soon.
I never said, suggested, or implied I 'expect' EBR to do anything, no less what you're assuming; though they are in an excellent position to do exactly this. Neither did I use language that suggested or implied 'clean-sheet and world-beating that appeals to the hardest of hard-core' -- though, again EBR is definitely a company in a unique position to do exactly that, better then anyone, because that's exactly what they already do.


But I think it is logical to expect an updated, improved variation of the Ulysses based on the 1190. In the coming years, I'd expect that model to evolve and improve and become more of a stand-alone model that appeals to people who want to beat the snot out of it (and it's likely they will be selling that bike alongside a dirt-bike as well). But, come on, this is a company that has made a little over 100 bikes. They have limited resources and they need to share components until they can grow into a larger company. Let's not expect the moon and the stars from them.
There are a lot of assumptions here that simply don't apply to the economics of running a business that's building motorcycles. Limited resources doesn't mean you 'need to share components' to save money, 'resources' or cut corners to execute successfully. There are more then enough components for this industry that are made by dedicated companies where scaling building the best most economical or highest performance part is their primary aim: engines, ignition systems, throttle bodies, carburetors, plastics, suspension components, and brakes being just a few of the most obvious.

Neither does a real ADV bike have to go to the wall to beat the snot out of the competition, the competition is heavily comprised, and the market segment I'm a proponent of is the most lucrative...

gbtw
08-14-2013, 10:10 AM
Even though i live in an area quite far from any offroading i would
love to see a low maintenance dirt oriented bike rather than just yet
another heavy N-cylinder adventure bike. Offroad bikes they generally
are not. Figuring EBR might want to go into this territory rather than
make a true round the world offroad bike I am hoping that this EBR
bike will have large intervals for maintenance and thus the added
convenience of being able to use the bike for traveling. This would
mean not having major service within 3 months (6 000 miles) after each
other because just just did a strait line across Europe on road, not
eating chains in 12 000 miles and not eating headset bearings every 6
000 miles.
Any mild offroading on these bikes takes its toll, bikes will lose
their value nearly instantly, especially with the superior German
engineering of my bike where you bend shock bolts and sub-frames if
your not careful, scratch up road plastic, break fuel tanks, etc, etc.
I am guessing this is the same for KTM's heavy bikes.

If you are on a holiday or trip across Europe you would avoid highways
like the plague. Now what i figured for traveling anything other than
highway you do not need the amount of power of a large volume engine,
as long as the bike is light and the layout is well though out. Even
for travel a comfortable speed of 60 mph is good enough. Sure more
power is nice for overtaking but its not necessary, speed limits on
most non highway roads are never more than 60 mph, and on these roads
you will get your best MPG value's as well.

As for bike layout, please get the weight down low as possible. One
good thing of my Bavarian pig, also makes an low power bike usable.

Hoak
08-24-2013, 06:41 PM
That's a very practical, thoughtful, and well composed post -- and while it's difficult to tell what sort of reception it will receive here; I agree with, and like what you're saying. This reminds me of 'Trail' and 'Dual Sport' bikes when I was learning to ride that really were the 'do everything' work horses of commuting and adventure that were easy and inexpensive to maintain and fun to ride.

Unfortunately I think you are right, and a lot of the newer generation ADV and ADV Touring bikes are disturbingly complex and fragile, as well as very costly to maintain, even more so if you ride them hard, or worse as is too often the case -- break through intended use. All of this lends to my sense that 'ADV' has become more of a marketing gimmick then any sort of serious design and engineering intention no less an exploration given to solving real problems.

By way of illustration: while how much power we really need to have fun is obviously subjective and subject to how a machine is going to be used; the new Dakar Rally bikes are limited to 450cc, have to haul rider and an enormous payload of fuel over incredibly rough terrain and deep sand at speeds in excess of 115 mph, in an extremely hot and dirty environment, and do that all day long, for many days... Surely displacement and power output surpassing compact and even some mid-size sports cars is overkill that could be given some consideration in trade for economy and weight, or at least moving the weight LOWER on the machine...

The low maintenance and simplicity the Buell XB12X offered with it's air-cooled engine, belt drive, impressive economy and self-adjusting valve train raised a lot of eye brows and made a very appealing approach to this genre that was well received and is again being pursued by the likes of Carducci (http://carduccidualsport.com/)

http://s24.postimg.org/whf7g8zzp/6467c8d2c7ee90599f7015fc204c6980.jpg
http://carduccidualsport.com/modules//homeslider/images/6467c8d2c7ee90599f7015fc204c6980.jpghttp://carduccidualsport.com/modules//homeslider/images/6467c8d2c7ee90599f7015fc204c6980.jpgBut this is another set of compromises in heavy, top heavy, and narrower focus that will only appeal to a limited audience with in the ADV market.

The important distinction I feel is often missed is that a bike that's engineered to take a lot of abuse that includes truly rough terrain, a dirty environment, deep water fording capability, that offers good handling characteristics under these conditions and some maintenance autonomy is usually well behaved on the road, can as needed do a decent job keeping up with similar power:weight street machines on their home turf (pavement), as well offer more stable forgiving geometry and handling that is often more important to the long haul and adventure prone Rider then how fast the bike drops into a corner.

The converse however is virtually never the case: while a dedicated street machine certainly can be ridden off-road, or even on rough pavement; a little sand, water, or wet leaves can easily upset the all-in road machine with very unforgiving outcomes, or more typically catastrophic results -- and this is exactly what we see with most heavy ADV Touring machines.

OurDee
04-06-2014, 09:06 PM
My thoughts go to:
1. a kick starter
2. a proper center stand
3. under 400 pounds
4. dual range output shaft for on and off road use
5. 100 hp minimum, prefer knocking on 200s door for on road use
6. needed within 3 years
7. able to work with out the battery
8. dream land specs.; multi-fuel, on-board generator, expandable luggage

Hoak
05-07-2014, 09:45 PM
Great post OurDee, and some of what you suggest is exactly what I'd like to see; some however is a bit contradictory, or at least across purposes...

Here, point for point is what I think of your eight suggestions:


My thoughts go to:
1. a kick starter
Absolutely, there's both a substantial savings in weight and crud to support and maintain. As well any engine that can't be easily kick started is probably suffering onset of a poor maintenance regime or other issues you're much better of knowing BEFORE you take off on an 'adventure' that leaves you in the middle of nowhere with a bike you just stubbornly held a starter button on, and now has failed you entirely...


2. a proper center stand
Yup.


3. under 400 pounds
We agree again, I'd add WELL under 400 pounds WET...


4. dual range output shaft for on and off road use
Here I have to disagree, a proper wide ratio, six speed transmission with sixth being a real over-drive or super cruise should cover all contingencies, with out added mechanical complexity, weight, power transmission loss, and reliability of jack-shafting a dual range output...


5. 100 hp minimum, prefer knocking on 200s door for on road use
Disagree again, pushing power above, and especially substantially above 100 hp is going to increase weight, decrease economy (requiring a greater fuel payload), and make for an engine that not only impractical to kick start; if it's knocking on the door of 200 hp quite unsafe or impossible to do so.

While throwing money at some of these across purpose design goals could obviate some of the problems; a better compromise is to accept the laws of physics, the limitations of metallurgy and modern materials -- and intend that the machine should be affordable to more then just five or six people on the planet.

Keep in mind 60-70 hp pushes 450cc Dakar Rally bikes with nearly 400 lbs or rider and fuel at sustained speed over 100 mph over deep sand, all day long... Horsepower/weight, CG, and torque are much more important then absolute power...


6. needed within 3 years
Yesterday would be better...


7. able to work with out the battery
Indeed, most motorcycles that are kick started can function with no battery; and even be made legal in states that require the lights remain on for a set period in the event of engine failure with a battery eliminator.


8. dream land specs.; multi-fuel, on-board generator, expandable luggage
Multi-Fuel is impractical unless a diesel stoichiometric engine platform is the starting point; on-board generator is already on most bikes, and as ours would be kick started it could be easily at little cost in weight or expense be made to offer more output; expandable (modular) luggage already exists -- so there are already some good design directions here being pursued that can be followed and improved in a more dedicated fashion.

Cool input OurDee!

Black Snowman
06-15-2014, 12:12 PM
Something I learned from my two road trips on my 1125R: It's really nice if you're not riding 2-up to be able to move the luggage down and forward to where the passenger would be. Makes that extra weight much less of an issue on ride, handling, and pre-load adjustment.

Raceya
08-09-2014, 10:42 PM
The previous 2 entries to this thread were made by complete goofballs. kickstarter.. lol what a joke, soon not even the japs will have kickstart on their mxers (look at KTMs biggest mx seller, 350sx-f or any Husqvarna enduro 4 stroke).. anyhow.

Rationale brings the EBR 1190AX to the following:

- 440-470 pounds dry *think more adventure than adventure touring*

- 140 to 160hp *1190 detuned for torque/reliability/mpg*

- Belt drive initially or 2nd year *taking advantage of R&D gathered from HD days provides the customer with lower long term maintenance cost and increased reliability over a chain drive while providing weight savings in simplicity, and a driveability better than drive-shaft equipped bikes.. but the time restraint may not be long enough to implement the design*

-Optional "proper" center stand *optional keeps official weight down*

- battery required at all times *mostly because this isn't scifi*

-Additional fuel reservoir not seen on other models *allows for same frame as other models to keep production costs low by way of interchangeability throughout model range*

- Provides better fuel mileage than RS/SX, and possibly optimized for 87 octane *regular* but definitely petrol only

- heated grips initially or 2nd year *ala uly*

- dc outlet for accessory electronics *ala uly*

- ABS standard equipment *multiple levels & off*

- expecting standard 19" front 17" rear, tubeless with 21" & 18" optional *non fully-spoked wheels due to ztl*

- optional soft cases immediately available with hard cases also available initially or within 3 months of release

- all out top speed may be intentionally hindered as priority is placed on low speed maneuverability *shorter rake means high speed headshake.. also, undoubtedly higher seat height compared to RX/SX*

- standard 16,300 msrp with options up to 18,700

There was some tech buried with the nearly mass produced HD-Buell dirtbike, maybe something we haven't seen yet will show up in this design, suspension maybe?.. The problem with the "Adventure" market is that it hasn't really been concretely defined, Erik has a chance to define it and gain a major foothold on this market. His biggest competitor being KTM and their 1190 adventure.. The Beemer is going to be a total pig compared to this bike but slightly more road worthy; while the Duc & Tiger will be lagging behind in all regards. It's exciting and I expect it to be revealed to the public in late October.

akfireinst
08-10-2014, 02:13 PM
May be too late, actually I hope it's way late to make suggestions. But as a dedicated Buell owner since 96 S1 and dedicated uly adventurer since 06. I'm hoping that it comes in at 400 lbs, 19 front wheel, narrower rear 160 and an interrogated crash bar system so when the bike is on its side only the crash bars and pegs touch the ground. Oh and one more thing keep the seat height down to 32 inches. I would prefer to loose an inch of suspension travel in exchange for being able to get a foot down. I have had the privilege to tour on a KTM 990 and BMW GS. I will take my uly over those every time. These suggestions along with the updated engine would make the AX the perfect adventurer tourer... in my opinion

Raceya
08-10-2014, 06:50 PM
ok, so not even Japanese mxers will have kickstarters within just a few years (japs looking at ktms best sellers, 350sx-f & FE line of Husky) so why would a 1200cc road going bike have one ?

Erik has said he has no plans for a touring or sport touring bike, so expect this to be 70% dirt 30% street

- weight will be 430-480 dry

- 17" front with 21" optional, non-fully spoked

- 150-165 hp (focus on torque/mpg/reliability) *petrol only*

- belt drive (reliability/low long term maintenance/low weight)

- proper center stand option (options keep official specs down)

- accessory dc power & heated grips (ala uly)

- additional fuel reservoir (allow the use of same frame as rx/sx)

Raceya
08-10-2014, 07:19 PM
whats wrong with this thing?

Raceya
08-10-2014, 07:19 PM
ok, so not even Japanese mxers will have kickstarters within just a few years (japs looking at ktms best sellers, 350sx-f & FE line of Husky) so why would a 1200cc road going bike have one ?


- weight will be 430-480 dry *estimating 70% dirt 30% road*


- 19" front with 21" optional, non-fully spoked


- 150-165 hp (focus on torque/mpg/reliability) *petrol only*


- belt drive (reliability/low long term maintenance/low weight)


- proper center stand option (options keep official specs down)


- accessory dc power & heated grips (ala uly)


- additional fuel reservoir (allow the use of same frame as rx/sx)

Hughlysses
08-11-2014, 04:34 PM
Several people asked the SC EBR dealer about the status of the AX at our Buell meet in Little Switzerland, NC last month. The dealer rep said that they understood the AX release was going to be delayed a bit from what was initially planned. I believe he estimated a late 2014/early 2015 release. According to him, EBR is currently directing their efforts at getting Hero bikes into the U.S.

Can anyone from AF1 confirm or deny this?

GAC
08-17-2014, 11:55 PM
- you know, when the road only, slightly lowered Uly came out, me and the wife really wanted one. We're ready to get one and then poof, Buell was gone.
i could reach the ground and was really feeling good about a Uly....
i hope,this version returns. I really want a bike to ride to work - comfortably. Touching the ground would be a plus.
i have not seen an SX or RX in California yet. There is a mysterious demo fleet around but I can't find out where....
the dealers are scarce.
where is the demo fleet???

surfsofa
08-18-2014, 08:25 PM
Big Uly fan here – I own the XB12X and XB12XT and unquestionably prefer the latter for its more confidence-inspiring front end handling. Personally I really hope the AX is some kind of mashup between the XT and the Multistrada, ie. a street biased sport tourer. There's definitely still room in this segment. Good luck Erik!

Scott
08-19-2014, 07:49 AM
Several people asked the SC EBR dealer about the status of the AX at our Buell meet in Little Switzerland, NC last month. The dealer rep said that they understood the AX release was going to be delayed a bit from what was initially planned. I believe he estimated a late 2014/early 2015 release. According to him, EBR is currently directing their efforts at getting Hero bikes into the U.S.

Can anyone from AF1 confirm or deny this?

The Aim Expo is only 2 months away:

http://www.aimexpousa.com/

I would hope that, at the very least even if they're not ready to start selling, we can get an 1190AX 'show bike' at Aim.

Honestly, I'd be more interested in the Hastur:

241

Than the AX, but I don't know if the first Hero bikes will include the Hastur - though the sooner they start selling bikes here, the sooner we could get a Hastur.

Ideally, I'd like to see an EBR version of the Hastur - higher performance, maybe even fuel-in-frame and rim-mounted brake . . . (and here's where I'm really going a little crazy) 750 cc to compete in WSBK Supersport and AMA Sportbike.

If they could show us an EBR version of the Hastur and an AX and give us an idea when they'll be available, that would be way-cool. But I think it's very unlikely we'll get all that.

noone1569
08-19-2014, 02:18 PM
I'm betting on AIM reveal for the AX. Went to the expo last year, going again this year.

Hughlysses
08-26-2014, 04:30 PM
Speaking of Hero and EBR, here's a recent article on the subject: http://www.businessweek.com/articles/2014-08-21/motorcycle-legend-erik-buell-indias-hero-motocorp-team-up


Next summer, Hero will begin exporting four of its models to the U.S., with EBR acting as the sole distributor—the first time its motorcycles will be sold in the U.S. ...
Buell says the Hero imports will include a scooter, high-mileage city bikes, and a lightweight sports bike. Prices could undercut Honda’s CBR300R, which retails for under $5,000.

"Lightweight sports bike" and "could undercut Honda's CBR300R" sounds like the Hero HX250R:

http://bikeadvice.in/wp-content/uploads/2014/02/Hero-HX250R.jpg

Scott
08-27-2014, 08:18 AM
:thumb:

Isn't there some sort of tax or other restriction on bikes over 250 cc in India? I thought I had heard something like that. It would be interesting if Hero can sell the standard 250 and EBR can sell a 300 cc version that's a little higher performance.

Hughlysses
08-30-2014, 06:25 AM
Just found this article at Cycle World: http://www.cycleworld.com/2014/08/29/on-the-record-with-dane-hoechst-erik-buell-racing-program-manager/

Very interesting comments on the AX:

The AX will be a completely new motorcycle. It won’t be a simple variance of the RX and SX. A lot of work and investment needs to go into that. We’ve got to continue to grow our dealer network, grow our brand in the field. When is it coming? Hopefully someday. I have no direct answer for that, but we get that question all the time. I’d like to see it happen. I have a Buell Ulysses in my garage. That was a fun project!

Very interesting about it being something other than another variant of the RX and SX, but disappointing that it may be a WHILE before we see it.

Hoak
08-30-2014, 10:06 AM
ok, so not even Japanese mxers will have kickstarters within just a few years (japs looking at ktms best sellers, 350sx-f & FE line of Husky) so why would a 1200cc road going bike have one ?
I'm assuming you meant Japanese MX bikes will NOT have kick-starters in a few years, and it's fairly obvious you're not really reading (or don't understand) other comments in the thread. Obviously if the AX wallows in with a 1200cc displacement kick start would be impractical and ridiculous, but to get to some of the goals discussed earlier in the thread, like lower weight, more maintenance autonomy anything south of a liter in displacement can be easily kick started.


- weight will be 430-480 dry *estimating 70% dirt 30% road*
Means it's performance bias is going to be more like 80% street, 20% dirt, completely upside down with what you imagination is telling you, and real use bias will be more like 90% street, 10% dirt -- even for experienced off-road racers and ADV riders, based on real use statistics...


- 19" front with 21" optional, non-fully spoked
This will defacto nail the bike to the pavement with only a 5% performance and use envelope for for nothing but groomed dirt roads; it will make riding even a high end of middle weight 430 lb machine in real off-road conditions an onerous proposal few will want to do, and even fewer will actually attempt or sustain, making real adventure touring that includes actual off-road riding exhausting and impractical.


- 150-165 hp (focus on torque/mpg/reliability) *petrol only*
This is a ridiculous non sequitur, I suppose you want the bike to have built in magical powers too...


- belt drive (reliability/low long term maintenance/low weight)
Sure, but with your other specifications and considerations it might as well have shaft drive, and use the shaft from a Ford delivery truck, the added weight won't matter...


- additional fuel reservoir (allow the use of same frame as rx/sx)
Yes (sarcasm) lets have an expensive, and virtually impossible or impossibly expensive to repair frame that's easily damaged and totally obviates maintenance autonomy and serious adventure off-road riding where the bike will get dumped.

Raceya what you want is already available, just buy one of the EBR racing machines and put a steel grate over the headlight and you'll have your pretend adventure bike...

gbtw
08-30-2014, 10:25 AM
ok, so not even Japanese mxers will have kickstarters within just a few years (japs looking at ktms best sellers, 350sx-f & FE line of Husky) so why would a 1200cc road going bike have one ?


- weight will be 430-480 dry *estimating 70% dirt 30% road*


- 19" front with 21" optional, non-fully spoked


- 150-165 hp (focus on torque/mpg/reliability) *petrol only*


- belt drive (reliability/low long term maintenance/low weight)


- proper center stand option (options keep official specs down)


- accessory dc power & heated grips (ala uly)


- additional fuel reservoir (allow the use of same frame as rx/sx)

What your describing here is a ****tier less autonomous BMW GS. I already have one of those so no thanks.
Even if EBR would want to build GS killer, it would be just another one in the pack. I rode most of them now except for the big beamer GS and Vstrom and most of them seem to have one flaw or another in terms of offroad usability by a novice rider, and its not always the weight that is an issue.
Most of the time is budget garbage suspension (F800GS, SuperTenere) on a otherwise very expensive bike, terrible ergo's and weight distribution, some its just terrible design flaws that sandblast your engine (KTM 1190 im looking at you!).
Because a novice rider can't take it offroad without a whole dealership wharehouse of crap is why these are used so much on the street rather than in the dirt. My friends Wr250R really looks appealing after having ridden my F800GS offroad now and then for a few years.

And for the power i will leave this here. You shurely need 150 bhp to ride a long strait road, and those big EBR brakes on the rear so you can slow down and take the corners at 1mph :).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9dRAfWML9-o

Hoak
08-30-2014, 10:36 AM
Ya, dirt road dragster, with a parts logistics wagon train in tow, brilliant!

(heavy sarcasm)

Hughlysses
08-30-2014, 12:07 PM
Yes (sarcasm) lets have an expensive, and virtually impossible or impossibly expensive to repair frame that's easily damaged and totally obviates maintenance autonomy and serious adventure off-road riding where the bike will get dumped.


Yea, we've all seen those hundreds of Ulys with ruined frames listed on ebay. :confused:

Hoak, you don't want an ADV bike, you want a dual-sport with a heavy emphasis on dirt. EBR may stretch the envelope a bit as far as the market's definition of an ADV bike, but why the hell would they go so far away from the Uly, which was one of Buell's most popular models? It ain't gonna happen.

Hoak
08-30-2014, 02:36 PM
Hoak, you don't want an ADV bike, you want a dual-sport with a heavy emphasis on dirt.
If you'd make some effort to read what I've written in just this thread you'd know your statement is emphatically false. As well there's no such thing as a 'dual-sport with a heavy emphasis on dirt' and even if there were and it was something I haven't yet owned or ridden (virtually impossible) -- it still wouldn't be what I want. Telling people what they want is such a bottom-of-the-barrel approach to informal fallacy I really didn't even want to dignify this with this much attention, oh well...


EBR may stretch the envelope a bit as far as the market's definition of an ADV bike, but why the hell would they go so far away from the Uly, which was one of Buell's most popular models?
Your assumption that the preferences expressed here diverge 'so far from the Uly' isn't congruent with any fact, and no one but EBR knows what EBR's intentions are or will be for its AX/Adventure bike -- hence this forum, and free speech. The XB12X was based on an HD context, powerplant, licensure, manufacturing and premise. EBR is an independent company that can go any direction they please, including a serious approach to clean sheet ADV motorcycle design.


It ain't gonna happen.
And you presume to know this by what means? Are you an EBR employee? What facts do you have to support your premise?

There's far more working against another sport bike or bloated cruiser with ADV bike lipstick pretending to be anything but what it is (a paint job) as that market is saturated. And if there isn't any consideration and exploration of real ADV design for the AX this thread and discussion in entire is moot...

Hughlysses
08-30-2014, 04:17 PM
Hoak- obviously all the statements I made are my opinion and no more likely to be accurate than anyone else's opinions here. From what I gather re-reading your posts you seem to want a sub-500cc dirt bike with some pavement capabilities. That doesn't seem to fit with the motorcycle industry's interpretation of an adventure motorcycle. EBR could dust off the plans for the stillborn 450cc Buell dirt-only motorcycle, make some minor changes, and I think they'd have a motorcycle very close to what you're asking for:

245

This image was reportedly a leaked rendition of the Buell design.

I had forgotten about it until I searched for the info, but Erik Buell was actually quoted as saying EBR has an interest in bringing this design to production:


EB – Special Rotax single cylinder engine of 450 cc. We are not looking to produce the lightest bike ever, but very light, but more reliable than competitors, which requires little maintenance and is very easy to start. It will have an aluminum frame that will also serve as the fuel tank and other attractions of the genre. At the time of Harley Davidson have spent years and many millions of dollars on this project, but then the manager decided it was not suitable for the Buell brand. We knew however that many dealers would have liked that there were also range in off-road motorcycles. The stop came in late 2006 and early 2007 and I think that that was the beginning of the end of the Buell.

Link to full article (in Italian) here:

http://www.motonline.com/prove/Articolo.cfm?Codice =283244 (http://www.motonline.com/prove/Articolo.cfm?Codice=283244)

Hoak
08-30-2014, 06:29 PM
From what I gather re-reading your posts you seem to want a sub-500cc dirt bike with some pavement capabilities.
No, I used KTM's rally machine as a more apt illustration of form that follows function, and I've given far more attention to Carducci and Buell's XB12X in this thread then KTM's 450 rally toaster. The point made is that less weight, power:weight, lower CG, and reliability are vastly more important to real 'world crosser' ADV capability then gross power, quarter mile time on pavement, and road sofa feature float.


That doesn't seem to fit with the motorcycle industry's interpretation of an adventure motorcycle.
Then 'the industry' has clearly failed with the lipstick on the cruiser and sport bike approach as they've created a saturated segment of bloat sofas on wheels have the highest ratio of buyer remorse and disappointment in the market, and the sales volume isn't going to this segment of the ADV market either.


EBR could dust off the plans for the stillborn 450cc Buell dirt-only motorcycle, make some minor changes, and I think they'd have a motorcycle very close to what you're asking for.
No, this isn't what I've said, suggested or implied -- this wild interpretation is either you trolling and pushing your pet wish, some kind of misunderstanding or unwillingness to make that effort on your part. Neither are the design concepts of what make a good ADV machine exclusively mine, they're coveted by a very large and lucrative segment of the market that have no real modern dedicated machine that satisfies them, and usually end up building or re-building their own along the lines of what you see described and shown on the ADV Rider (http://www.advrider.com/) forums.

Giving you the benefit of the doubt, again, here in bullet format is a conceptual summery of what's needed and coveted by riders like me:

· endurance
· economy
· fuel capacity
· low weight
· low center of gravity
· wheel size & geometry that emphasizes dynamic stability over turning performance
· long suspension travel
· simplicity that reinforces maintenance autonomy
· ruggedness that is both fall and fail safe

These are concepts not concrete design absolutes that are prevailed upon by physics, materials science, and practical production costs that in turn confer form that follows function for the real world demands of a machine that can endure and manage around the world, all surface, inclement adventure riding -- and what most riders end up wanting or needing in bikes used this way generally equates to:

· wet weight under 400 pounds
· fuel capacity and economy to go at least 300 miles
· a center of gravity as low as all design considerations allow
· wire wheels with a 21 inch hoop up front
· at least ten inches of suspension travel loaded
· all foo-foo and farkels as options not mandated 'standard features'
· sub one liter displacement
· over engineering for frame and suspension stress
· wide ratio transmission

The model for this has long been the open-class Paris Dakar Rally bike, which when it was allowed was (and remains) the fastest all-surface machines on the planet. What this translates to as far as concretes in the bikes ADV fans like me buy and build encompasses a wide range of approaches in method and execution like the Wunderlich BMW F800GS (http://www.wunderlichamerica.com/mm5/graphics/00000001/downloads/wunderlust/thelen/2.jpg), to a lot of air-cooled BMW R80 derived boxers (http://kickstart.bikeexif.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/01/bmw-paris-dakar.jpg), HD Sportster's like Carducci (http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-K6KWVeiyFow/UhjiPPJmRaI/AAAAAAAABUc/d4rxCUZH2DE/s1600/CarducciDualSportSportster.jpg), all sorts of rally kits (http://www.rally-raidproducts.co.uk/blog/wp-content/uploads/2011/08/DSC_0141-Copy.jpg) selling in the tens of thousands for Dual Sport, Enduro, and Off Road Bikes, and even Works Rally Bikes (http://blog.derestricted.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/10/2014-Honda-CRF-450-Rally_02.jpg) consumers can buy.

But since you keep trying to impeach the veracity and applicably of my preferences with your interpretation of what my dream ADV bike would be, and to get you to knock this sh*t off once and for all, here's one illustration of some high points of what could satisfy me and a considerable audience with similar expectations and goals:

· air-cooled low angle 700-800 cc parallel twin
· six speed WR transmission
· cradle and truss frame
· stressed modular bolt-on fuel nacelle*
· very fat large bore forks
· high breathing intake snorkels similar to Honda, KTM & BMW
· net suspension travel of 12"
· integrated frame mounts for all accessories
· rally furniture set for low wind drag coefficient at a very fast cruise
· weigh about 400 lbs wet (or less)
· range fully laden ~ 400 miles statute with rider and load
· power output would be 'sufficient'
· final drive would be Buell's constant tension belt


*similar to Buell approach but is bolt on/off section of frame

Lest you say it can't be done, it has; in fact nearly a decade ago, and it offered 0-60 times that would beat a Buell XB12X... As far as how this might look, the layout could be something like this (note the bike depicted is not a twin, and not air-cooled, it's a water cooled single):

http://s16.postimg.org/t77o8znrl/YZE_750_gr.jpg (http://www.rallye-tenere.net/Bilder/Rallye_Website_neu/08/Axel/YZE-750-gr.jpg)

With modern Rally furniture layout similar to this (not this is not the same bike as the above, and is not a twin or air-cooled either):

http://s15.postimg.org/62wjrozav/post_354421_0_43970000_1384279924.jpg (http://www.thumpertalk.com/uploads/monthly_11_2013/post-354421-0-43970000-1384279924.jpg)

I'm not dead set on any of this, it's an illustration, an example, and if if Buell ended up with a short stroke low profile water cooled V engine like the Highland V-Twin (http://www.ushighland.com/) or some derivative Rotax twin that would be fine too, or it would be really cool to see Rotax or some other power plant build their own modern flat twin air-cooled 'boxer' for all the advantages it has to offer this class of bike and the inefficiency it obviates when incorporating shaft final drive.

Do I honestly imagine EBR will build such a bike? I haven't the faintest idea; it does however appear that the AX is still on the drawing board and in the planning phase, and there are a litany of reasons EBR might build a bike coveted by real adventure riders rather then a recapitulation of the XB12X, or worse a sport-bike with abject 'adventure' pretension. I'll reiterate those and pile them on in a later post..

gbtw
08-31-2014, 05:14 AM
Lest you say it can't be done, it has; in fact nearly a decade ago, and it offered 0-60 times that would beat a Buell XB12X... As far as how this might look, the layout could be something like this (note the bike depicted is not a twin, and not air-cooled, it's a water cooled single):

http://s16.postimg.org/t77o8znrl/YZE_750_gr.jpg (http://www.rallye-tenere.net/Bilder/Rallye_Website_neu/08/Axel/YZE-750-gr.jpg)


Actually, isn't that a far superior Parallel twin :) The XTZ750 (consumer model of this one) is actually on the list as a possible replacement if my F800GS craps out.

Hughlysses
08-31-2014, 10:12 AM
Hoak- I sense a needless amount of animosity in your replies; I was honestly just trying to understand what sort of motorcycle you were suggesting for a "true" ADV bike.

I think it'd be wonderful if EBR designs and builds the bike you describe. OTOH, based on what I've seen on ADVrider and Badweb for the past ~6 years, there are a lot of current XB12X riders (including me) and other riders who've followed Buell and EBR's efforts that would like to see an updated rendition of the Ulysses using the ET-V2 engine or a variation of it.

From what Dane Hoechst said in the interview I linked, the future of the AX is wide open, so we really don't have any idea which direction EBR is headed with the bike. Maybe we'll see what this new AX looks like at the AIMExpo this October, or maybe it'll be a year or two in the future.

Hoak
08-31-2014, 12:16 PM
Hoak- I sense a needless amount of animosity in your replies; I was honestly just trying to understand what sort of motorcycle you were suggesting for a "true" ADV bike.
Animosity, none, warranted impatience, plenty; I think you may be projecting.


I think it'd be wonderful if EBR designs and builds the bike you describe. OTOH, based on what I've seen on ADVrider and Badweb for the past ~6 years, there are a lot of current XB12X riders (including me) and other riders who've followed Buell and EBR's efforts that would like to see an updated rendition of the Ulysses using the ET-V2 engine or a variation of it.
I'm sure XB12X owners would, and well EBR might; and obviously I might even be interested in such a machine depending on what form it takes if it's as robust as the XB12X or better in that regard. But it seems unlikely if this is the approach that we're going to get a lighter, more reliable, efficient, affordable, and more versatile machine then the XB12X -- and I'd love to be proven wrong...


IFrom what Dane Hoechst said in the interview I linked, the future of the AX is wide open, so we really don't have any idea which direction EBR is headed with the bike. Maybe we'll see what this new AX looks like at the AIMExpo this October, or maybe it'll be a year or two in the future.
It sounded to me more like they haven't even committed any resources to this project yet, and that it's still one for the tomorrow file.

Hughlysses
09-02-2014, 07:44 AM
Interesting- the interview at Cycle World has been removed.

Hoak
09-03-2014, 08:57 PM
Interesting- the interview at Cycle World has been removed.
Yeah I saw and wondered about that too. Just there's no hard feelings; we love the same things! I think the XB12X is a GREAT bike, I almost bought one. Mostly what stopped me was HD shutting down Buell; if Buell/HD was still intact I'd be an owner.

What separates me from buying a used one today are the design compromises and focus of the bike is just too narrow; while the XB12X is 'dirt capable' it's not a real 'world crosser', and like many street oriented bikes of this ilk 'capability' is a very, very loose use of that word...

For example: just riding the XB12X on unimproved dirt roads for thousands of miles, would be an unsafe, exhausting, miserable experience compared to say the KTM 1190 Adventure R. In fact to ride at the speed you could safely and comfortably traverse some of the rougher roads on a KTM, wouldn't even be possible on an XB12X.

As well, that the KTM will also out-perform the XB12X on pavement should speak volumes to the design bias in terms of what really works and best that wears the meaning of the 'ADV' moniker.

That said, I wish the KTM offered the XB12X's elegant simplicity, fuel economy, belt drive, quality, attention to detail, and magnificent work-horse engine; in fact that the KTM is a virtual space shuttle on two wheels in terms of feature float and complexity is turn-off as limiting as XB12X's street bias.

Hughlysses
09-04-2014, 04:49 AM
The article's back up since last night, now with a couple of pics. No artists renditions of the upcoming AX unfortunately. :frown:

Hoak
09-04-2014, 11:29 PM
While this is blatant advertising that's thoroughly scripted; there's plenty here too that's real impromptu, fun ADV riding of the dirt flavor -- where the heavily street biased bikes aren't much fun, and in some cases can't even take you.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aTvYAcJOx3s&amp;list=PL247337D9A98D60B3

A bike that's may to not even run after a dump in the dirt and/or is so heavy a solo rider can't even get it back upright without help, isn't going to cut it for any real adventure where you're going to depend on the machine.

There's also a safe kind of legal fun you can have off-road going fast on a truly dirt capable machine you can't have on pavement, as screw-ups here are almost never lethal, rarely hospitalizing, and you're no risk to anyone but yourself.

Raceya
09-04-2014, 11:32 PM
Hoak..

What's with you man ?

EBR must be aiming to take on the 1200gs and the 1190 adventure, and so the specs of those bikes are what I used to set the bar in my predictions...

Take jabs at my post but then go on about how great the bike used for reference specs is... -_-

but as others have stated, it appears what you want and what an "Adventure" bike is as defined by the industry are two different things.. but more importantly, I say EBR is aiming at the Bmw & KTM because it'd be cheaper to modify the platform they've already designed in the RX/SX rather than designing a new bike from scratch..

also, notice that Erik is using the term "Adventure" rather than creating a whole new class of motorcycle for the AX as he did for the SX.. and so he himself categorizes the AX with the industry's standard BMW/KTM.

Maybe thats not 70%off road as I admittedly previously incorrectly stated *realistically thats dual sport/motard/freeride realm*, but I do predict the AX will be significantly more offroad worthy and competitive than the XB12X.. and I even think the AX may compete in lightest weight with the 800cc 460+ lbs adv bikes, as the SX is only 414lbs wet.

Also, how unbelievable is it that the 1190 engine may be detuned from the 185 hp down to 150-165hp to increase fuel mileage and increase engine reliability? It seems plausible to me..

Honestly, I'd expect an EBR full blown dirt bike before we get your 2 wheeled mountain goat.. in the mean time, why don't ya get ya a new Husky 350/501 S ? or better yet get a FE350/FE501 and street legal it.. as I've done with my smoker 2014 TE250 :D

Hoak
09-05-2014, 09:37 PM
Hoak... What's with you man ?
What do you mean? Are you completely intolerant of being subjected to facts and people disagreeing with and/or having different preferences then you?


EBR must be aiming to take on the 1200gs and the 1190 adventure, and so the specs of those bikes are what I used to set the bar in my predictions...
Must? Why 'must' they? This isn't the best selling or as was originally thought the most lucrative segment of the market -- not by a long shot...


Take jabs at my post but then go on about how great the bike used for reference specs is... -_-
Taking exception to your preferences that aren't even congruent with facts and reality, is not taking 'jabs' at you, I like everyone else in the thread am stating my hopes preferences. As far as 'greatness' and 'specs' I don't know what you mean... You also seem to have missed the point that I've agreed with you more then disagreed -- perhaps out of some need to be offended?


but as others have stated, it appears what you want and what an "Adventure" bike is as defined by the industry are two different things..
No, not 'others' one other, and I've stated very clearly very early in the thread exactly what I would like, which is also much more congruent with what's selling better and is actually defining the 'ADV' market then what you'd appear to want...


but more importantly, I say EBR is aiming at the Bmw & KTM because it'd be cheaper to modify the platform they've already designed in the RX/SX rather than designing a new bike from scratch..
Perhaps yes, KTM does this too, and comes up with some radically different bikes only loosely based on the same engines...


also, notice that Erik is using the term "Adventure" rather than creating a whole new class of motorcycle for the AX as he did for the SX.. and so he himself categorizes the AX with the industry's standard BMW/KTM.
That assignation is used by more then BMW and KTM, but even if we all yield to your argument; BMW's best selling, in fact the best selling 'Adventure' bike in the world is the F800GS and not by a small margin. Similarly Triumph's middle weight ADV machine (shown in the video above), is much more 'definitive' as far what the ADV class is, then what you're pretending I'm saying. Even if we use your example of KTM's liter plus bike; it's vastly more dirt worthy then the XB12X can ever be, and the KTM 1190 R comes much closer to what I want then what you want.


I even think the AX may compete in lightest weight with the 800cc 460+ lbs adv bikes, as the SX is only 414lbs wet.
It might, but that seems very unlikely as a performance oriented road bike's frame is always cut down for minimum weight, and maximum stiffness -- not strength... The stresses on a real ADV machine, ridden even casually off road, no less at fun speeds are orders of magnitude higher then what a street racer will ever encounter and can withstand. Add the additional strength needed to actuarially haul a payload, and to manage the stress the power of 100+ hp -- and a heavier bike is a forgone conclusion...


Also, how unbelievable is it that the 1190 engine may be detuned from the 185 hp down to 150-165hp to increase fuel mileage and increase engine reliability? It seems plausible to me..
It's absolutely plausible, the Buell ET-V2 engine already gets impressive fuel economy so it's not at all unreasonable that they make take the basic engine design to something much more ADV worthy.


Honestly, I'd expect an EBR full blown dirt bike before we get your 2 wheeled mountain goat..
Honestly? So you weren't being honest to this point? What goat?


in the mean time, why don't ya get ya a new Husky 350/501 S ? or better yet get a FE350/FE501 and street legal it.. as I've done with my smoker 2014 TE250 :D
Because, as you'd 'honestly' know if you actually made an 'honest' effort to read what I wrote, is not what I want in a motorcycle.

Thank you for your effort, patience, consideration, and politeness...

gbtw
09-06-2014, 11:00 AM
I will just leave this here :D

http://advrider.com/forums/showpost.php?p=20290816&postcount=1731

http://advrider.com/forums/showpost.php?p=20391642&postcount=2116

http://www.touratech-usa.com/Adventure/Blog/QGfaOh/Weekend-Weigh-In-Results

http://www.sibirskyextreme.com/2013/08/bike-selection-101/
http://www.sibirskyextreme.com/2013/09/adv-bike-selection-2/
http://www.sibirskyextreme.com/2013/11/adv-bike-selection-3/

On a more serous note, the sibrisky extreme ride report is well worth a read http://advrider.com/forums/showthread.php?t=834987

Hoak
09-06-2014, 12:25 PM
Ha, the ADV Vloger & Bloger posts again! From the feed-back my posts have received in various ADV venues I enjoy (and the strange reception here) it seems most have little or no hope Buell will make a serious ADV machine; though I still believe EBR is in a unique position to do exactly that. However the counter argument of the pavement focused pedigree, lack of any solid information since the intention an AX 'Adventure' machine was announced, and the ridiculous focus everywhere in native advertising and marketing on bloated road whales pretending to be ADV machine doesn't bode well...

That said, I remain hopeful; Erik Buell is one of the brightest lights on the motorcycle design Christmas tree, and employs some of the best and brightest as well. Whether they have exposed themselves to, understand, and will actually acknowledge the real market that exists for a serious ADV machine, or go for a narrow focus road toad with lip service to 'Adventure' complete with upstairs swimming pool, sauna, wet bar and tanning deck remains to be seen (if it's ever to be seen at all).

But the design and marketing coup a real 'world crosser' capable machine, where the limiting factor to 'Adventure™' would have more to do with the rider than bike would be enormous. As well, the audience for such a bike is much larger and broader then just 'serious' ADV riders; unlike the limited capability a sport touring and heavy cruiser massaged into 'ADV' lipstick and farkels, a serious ADV machine offers far more capable performance on pavement then the prodigal 'Speed Princess' machines can muster on a groomed dirt drag strip in fair weather; a real ADV machine will last longer, and can take a lot more abuse than machines like KTM's new space shuttle on two wheels.

Whatever EBR does or doesn't do, most serious ADV Riders will go ahead and build our own bikes regardless of the dreck churned out by the manufactures -- the size and scope of this market will eventually get noticed (again), and some motorcycle company will turn the full force of its engineering talent in this direction (again) and create a bike that will set a new standard, outsell literally everything, and not just in its class; this has happened before... I hope some here (besides me -- maybe from EBR) actually make the effort to click on and read what's offered at those links above; no one is grinding any axes or proselytizing there; just confronting real design limitations and challenges honestly and enthusiastically...

Hoak
11-05-2014, 09:33 PM
Well the new Honda Africa Twin has made an appearance at EICMA...

http://s15.postimg.org/fm4mpscif/h9kpeu8ux6wgs0vbqka6.jpg (http://postimg.org/image/fm4mpscif/)

The 'leaked' specifications look promising -- or interesting depending on your perspective:

· 440 Lbs. Wet
· 5.3 Gallon Fuel Capacity
· 1000cc Parallel Twin
· 100 HP
· 10" Suspension Travel
· 21” Front Wheel
· 17” Rear Wheel
· ABS Brakes
· Traction Control
· Dual Clutch Transmission

Depending on how it's priced it looks like one more to crowd the already crowded 'heavy liter bike' ADV market segment...

zviadi
06-30-2016, 02:29 AM
Any news or any insider information about the beginning of the production of AX?
In my wishlist instead RX.

Hughlysses
06-30-2016, 06:57 AM
Apparently several people asked this question at Homecoming at the factory earlier this month. No one got a straight answer to the question, but based on facial expressions of several people that should know and other hints that were given, it seems a more touring-friendly version of the SX is under development.

How different it may be from the current 1190SX is anyone's guess. EBR had an SX on display at the factory with factory soft bags, hand guards, and a small windshield (see below). As seen in the 650ib video, Erik's own SX has taller handlebars, lower footpegs, and he mentioned it could use lower gearing. Perhaps Erik himself is doing the development work on his own bike?

1012

zviadi
06-30-2016, 02:38 PM
I'm more interested а large ground clearance than the travel kit.
Ideally I would gipermotard like Aprilia DD1200, but more powerful and easier.

Purves
10-18-2016, 07:48 AM
I'm more interested а large ground clearance than the travel kit.
Ideally I would gipermotard like Aprilia DD1200, but more powerful and easier.

Bringing this back from the past...

I personally am excited to see what EBR has to show at the IMS show coming up in November.

I like your idea, however I would be just as happy if they make the SX set up more like the KTM SD GT.

Danballa
11-17-2016, 07:43 PM
Man, I was really hoping for the AX to be announced... Instead, it's just a modified SX. Sadly, I guess I gotta go with a KTM now