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noone1569
04-15-2015, 12:37 PM
http://www.jsonline.com/business/erik-buell-racing-closes-files-for-receivership-b99481936z1-299863281.html

budgolf
04-15-2015, 01:17 PM
Freakin hell

Classax
04-15-2015, 01:21 PM
WOW.... NOT good!

Scott
04-15-2015, 01:25 PM
Wow. I think there's more to this than meets the eye:

http://www.chapter128trustee.com/what.php

Hero has made no secret that they'd buy the remaining 51% if given the chance, so why didn't that just happen? From the above link, it looks like the debts will be repaid, so I don't think this is an end or just an attempt to skip out on payments.

I suspect someone's waiting in the wings. Perhaps Erik forced this because he knew that his and Hero's interest would be auctioned off and he would then be able to work with a third party who he expects to buy it? Just wild speculation on my part, but something is going on more than them just giving up.

I have to imagine there would be a lot of interested parties who would pay for a turn-key American Superbike manufacturer. Polaris? BRP? Ford?

Sad, but also intriguing.

Hughlysses
04-15-2015, 02:04 PM
Here's what Hero's head said in an interview with Cycle News 2 weeks ago when asked if he would buy EBR:

360

Source: http://cyclenews.uberflip.com/i/487891-cycle-news-2015-issue-13-march-31

As long as they still keep building bikes in the US, I'm good with that.

noone1569
04-15-2015, 02:31 PM
AF1, any additional info?

mackja
04-15-2015, 03:26 PM
Well this most certainly sucks!!! I hope something happens to keep things going, just have to wait and see. I was going to buy an SX at the end of the year and put the RX on the track. I can't bare the thought of buying a Ducati!

Ed / AF1 Racing
04-15-2015, 03:32 PM
We know just as much as you guys. The EBR sales rep called to tell me at the same time the article was posted. He and all the others are out of a job as of today, and nobody knows anything.

I want to know...

What happens to the bikes we still have on the floor? We have two RX, SX, and a RS...ouch.
Bikes waiting on warranty work? Will we ever get paid?
Parts? Will the orders ever get filled?

Scott
04-15-2015, 04:04 PM
I've been running this through my head and I can't make any sense of it. We know that Hero paid $20 million a few years ago for 49% of a company that wasn't selling anything. Now they've got bikes that have been fully realized, been approved by all government agencies and they have a dealer network etc. all the hard work happened between the time Hero bought their share and now. The company now has to be worth more than the $40 million it was worth a few years ago. Okay, so they've also got some debt that's going to knock the value down, but I can't imagine that debt is huge. Let's say they made 1000 bikes at a cost of $12,000 each that went completely unsold. That amounts to about $12 million, so knock that off the $50 or $60 million the company would otherwise be worth and there's still a lot of value there (and those bikes still have value even if they weren't sold).

I have to imagine at the absolute very least a deal in the ballpark of the following was on the table: Hero writes Erik a check for $10 million and takes full ownership of the company (a bargain for them). They keep Erik under contract for at least 5 years as technical adviser at $500,000 a year, continue making motorcycles and keep the legacy going.

While Hero would be getting a bargain and Erik probably wouldn't like the idea of losing his ownership, something like that would have to be preferable to the company ceasing to exist and never making motorcycles again.

With that in mind, I have to imagine that whatever the future holds Erik must consider it a better option than the above. And anything better than the above has to mean motorcycles will continue to be made.

There is probably a lot of financial and political wrangling, but I can't envision a logical scenario in which EBR simply disappears. Something's happening that we just don't understand yet and hopefully there will be limited disruption to the people at EBR, dealers, suppliers etc. when all is said and done.

Classax
04-15-2015, 07:13 PM
Its a sad day. American Superbikes owned by India just does't have the same ring. IF HERO were buying Erik out there would no need to suspend operations and fire the staff, you simply do the transaction and pencil in Inc or Subsidiary on all the signage. Not over think it since we don't have many facts but:

They suspended operations, and closed firing the staff.

Instead of going chapter 11 they go WI Chapter 128 which is more like a protective order against being sued and shelter from additional interest from creditors until you can pay them off. Under 128 they could have kept the staff and continued supporting dealers and customers but didn't which makes me think its way more grave a situation than just a restructure.

The sudden lack of funding large enough to overthrow an operation like this is either GE or Hero.

If its was GE that means they don't have enough to pay the suppliers which is why we seem to always see parts out of stock. In which case some may be able to rescue them and operation MIGHT resume ( they didn't have to close for this scenario though).

If its HERO, that's a major problem as the principle investor pulling out would leave Erik having to fund operations and pay off debts himself (as before.) Seeking chapter 128 buys him 36 interest free months to pay off creditors by selling off company and personal assets. In that scenario its turn off the lights and shut off the ac and only eat Roman noodles while we figure a way out of this without loosing the house...



As a customer who paid FULL price in support of an American company recognizing that in order for a company to viable it would require investment, I am very disappointed. EBR never really seemed to my mind to taking the right steps to sell motorcycles. FACEBOOK is not the best way to advertise. Despite the difficulties I had I still think the RX is perhaps the best motorcycle I have ever ridden for MY style of riding. The support to customer and dealers has always been my complaint and without sales you can't pay suppliers and when they eventually all demand their money ... well you know the rest.

Scott
04-15-2015, 07:57 PM
Its a sad day. American Superbikes owned by India just does't have the same ring. IF HERO were buying Erik out there would no need to suspend operations and fire the staff, you simply do the transaction and pencil in Inc or Subsidiary on all the signage. Not over think it since we don't have many facts but:

They suspended operations, and closed firing the staff.

Instead of going chapter 11 they go WI Chapter 128 which is more like a protective order against being sued and shelter from additional interest from creditors until you can pay them off. Under 128 they could have kept the staff and continued supporting dealers and customers but didn't which makes me think its way more grave a situation than just a restructure.

The sudden lack of funding large enough to overthrow an operation like this is either GE or Hero.

If its was GE that means they don't have enough to pay the suppliers which is why we seem to always see parts out of stock. In which case some may be able to rescue them and operation MIGHT resume ( they didn't have to close for this scenario though).

If its HERO, that's a major problem as the principle investor pulling out would leave Erik having to fund operations and pay off debts himself (as before.) Seeking chapter 128 buys him 36 interest free months to pay off creditors by selling off company and personal assets. In that scenario its turn off the lights and shut off the ac and only eat Roman noodles while we figure a way out of this without loosing the house...





The one thing I feel sure of is something very specific and very planned is going on. I also feel nearly as certain that bikes will continue to get made relatively soon (the real value here - and there is value - isn't in the equipment or buildings or office furniture, it's in the specific designs and road-legal bikes that can be made and sold using existing equipment).

As you mention, if Hero intends to just continue with Erik in a diminished role, it doesn't seem like they'd go about it this way. They'd buy Erik out (and while he may have been reluctant to sell, if it was the difference between shutting the doors or allowing Hero to continue, I don't think he'd take the company down with him) and it would be a lot cleaner and neater than this without the negative press, and the transition would be nearly invisible. If the company goes on the market and Hero intends to get it back, they take the risk of losing it or paying more than they likely could have by making a simpler offer to Erik.

Hero wants to get into the US market. The worst thing they could do with that clear goal in the near future would be to screw over an iconic figure in American motorcycling while also pissing off a lot of great dealers (like AF1) who could sell the crap out of Hero motorcycles. The value of those relationships has to be higher (though difficult to quantify) than the few million dollars at stake with keeping EBR running.

I can't think of a logical explanation for what's happening, but it has to be there.

If you go to EBR's web-page, it will say: "It works!

This is the default web page for this server.
The web server software is running but no content has been added, yet."

If they were simply turning off the lights, it seems like the old web-page would stay up for many months until the bill eventually came due.

There's something going on and management and communication people are involved. We saw what Erik did when Harley pulled the plug. If EBR were just turning off the lights, I suspect he would have more to say than we've heard. The silence in itself is very telling and I suspect Erik would love to come out and say what's really happening, but his hands are tied by legal restrictions.

While I'm very baffled by what's actually going on, If I had to bet, I'd say that things will continue in some way and the damage to employees, suppliers and dealers will be minimized as much as possible (not to say there won't be transition and pain).

Hughlysses
04-16-2015, 04:46 AM
I'm wondering if Classaxe isn't close to the truth.

Of the two outside companies that are heavily involved (GE and Hero), I'm thinking it's more likely GE is the culprit. I believe they provided financing for dealer showrooms and for dealers to acquire EBR bikes prior to selling them. Erik's comments make this deal sound like there was a negotiation involving funding that couldn't be worked out which drove them to seek receivership. Since it seems EBR sales are slower-than-expected, GE might have refused to extend their financing arrangement with EBR, which could prevent any new motorcycles from being shipped to dealers. Perhaps receivership gives EBR an opportunity to look for another source of financing, or maybe it just puts things on "hold" until Erik can finalize a complete buy-out by Hero.

I hope some more details come out soon.

BTW- www.ebr.com won't come up at all this morning.

Hughlysses
04-16-2015, 05:05 AM
This seems to be a new addition to the Journal-Sentinel article:


Bids will be solicited for the company as part of the Chapter 128 process, with the winning bid to be determined by a state court. At the company's request, attorney Michael S. Polsky will be the court-appointed receiver.
Any proposed sale is subject to court approval and higher or better bids, according to Polsky. The company anticipates that its assets will be sold, according to a state Department of Workforce Development notice that announced the immediate termination of the employees.

Scott
04-16-2015, 05:55 AM
Here's what I'm thinking (and I could be WAY off on this, but I think it might be at least close). First off, I don't believe GE has any ownership stake, so they may just be relegated to the group of people standing in line to get at least some of their money back (and under Chapter 128, they may get a good chunk).

I suspect there have been cash issues for a while. Hero, of course, could have written a check at any time to make those cash issues go away if that was in their best interest. But they want ownership and writing a check to make the problems go away is counter to their goal of ownership.

Erik doesn't want to hand over control but his options are limited. I suspect he has been talking to many people - GE (who is likely reluctant to throw good money after bad) and other industry people and capital firms who understand the value of the company. Those other entities (let's imagine Polaris as one possible entity) are probably reluctant to get involved unless they can get whole or partial ownership - but that's not going to happen as long as Hero is involved.

So I imagine Hero and at least one other entity will be bidding for this. Since Erik didn't make a deal with Hero as he could have, he has probably created some bad blood with them and likely will be out (though maybe maintained in some capacity for marketing and public relations purposes). He probably has a better chance of staying relevant with the mystery entity, so he's probably playing high stakes poker by pushing it to this point and hoping the other party will end up with the company instead of Hero.

But there's a lot of speculation in there. It could be as simple as Hero and Erik are working together and this is a way they can reduce some debt (though I think the PR damage in that case would be worth more than the cash), but in any case, I still feel confident that EBR will continue in some form.

Hughlysses
04-16-2015, 07:42 AM
Scott- my first thought was that maybe GE is the problem. While they don't apparently own any of EBR, they provided the financing that allows dealers to set up show space for EBR's and allows them to finance EBR bikes prior to selling them to customers. If GE put a halt on this program, that means EBR would have great difficulty in moving any more motorcycles out of the factory. This would completely shut down motorcycle operations.

Maybe receivership puts a hold on things to prevent creditors from slicing EBR up and selling the parts and gives Erik a chance to sell the whole deal to Hero? Who knows?

Over at Badweb, Court has repeatedly said that the vast majority of the work that's been going on at EBR for the past year or so is engineering for outside customers. This was apparently providing enough cash to keep the place running. Of course, that might just have kept the design staff funded while doing nothing for the motorcycle production operations. That would support this "GE is the cause" theory.

I am not a business/finanical expert and I haven't stayed at Holiday Inn Express in a couple of years.

Scott
04-16-2015, 08:46 AM
Scott- my first thought was that maybe GE is the problem. While they don't apparently own any of EBR, they provided the financing that allows dealers to set up show space for EBR's and allows them to finance EBR bikes prior to selling them to customers. If GE put a halt on this program, that means EBR would have great difficulty in moving any more motorcycles out of the factory. This would completely shut down motorcycle operations.

Maybe receivership puts a hold on things to prevent creditors from slicing EBR up and selling the parts and gives Erik a chance to sell the whole deal to Hero? Who knows?

Over at Badweb, Court has repeatedly said that the vast majority of the work that's been going on at EBR for the past year or so is engineering for outside customers. This was apparently providing enough cash to keep the place running. Of course, that might just have kept the design staff funded while doing nothing for the motorcycle production operations. That would support this "GE is the cause" theory.

I am not a business/finanical expert and I haven't stayed at Holiday Inn Express in a couple of years.

I think you may very will be right with your "GE is the cause" in that they are probably the entity owed the most money and therefore the one pushing the hardest. But GE and Hero have very different roles and while I suspect GE simply wants cash and then they'll get out, Hero wants ownership. I doubt GE wants ownership (and I'm not sure if anyone implied that, but it was one of the many things rolling through my brain in trying to figure this all out).

But if we assume all GE wants is cash and we know Hero could write them a check, the real cause of being where we are now is Hero not writing that check. And the cause for Hero not writing that check could be that they are just done and want out, but I suspect it's not that they want out, but they want ownership.

As for the engineering, I suspect 90% of that work is work for Hero - which just adds to the complication.

I'm skeptical that this is all part of a plan to sell ownership to Hero because that could have happened very easily with no drama. I think the fact that it went to where it did is clear evidence that Erik has something else in mind other than selling to Hero.

I strongly suspect he has someone who he knows will make a bid. The problem is, he has no way of knowing how the bidding process will shake out.

Let's start with a complete hypothetical. Hero has been squeezing Erik and the company. EBR has needed cash but Hero has said: "Sorry, you figure it out Mr. Majority Owner." With the expectation that when things got bad enough Erik would sell. Erik realized it's getting to that point so he's been talking to Polaris (again, COMPLETE hypothetical) and they're interested in owning EBR, but, of course, they don't want to share ownership with Hero. And Hero isn't interested in selling to Polaris.

So Erik has pushed to the point of receivership where he knows the company will be auctioned and he knows Polaris and Hero will be bidding on it. What he can't know is the result of that bidding. Polaris may have told him how much they'd be willing to pay, and he may know how much Hero has offered him, but he doesn't know, once the bidding starts, who will come out on top.

If Hero ends up getting it (as is very likely in my opinion), he's out and he has pissed a lot of people off. Now if they're smart, they may keep him on in some symbolic role to keep up appearances until things are more established and Hero has a big US footprint, but I can't imagine that's what Erik wants.

So if my scenario is even close, Erik is taking a big risk.

But as I've said, I feel confident that somebody will be making 1190RX and 1190SX motorcycles once this is done. Unless someone wants to make motorcycles, everything EBR owns is probably worth less than 5 million dollars. If it's just Hero bidding against used equipment dealers, they'll buy it for $5 million and be thrilled. But I suspect it will be Hero bidding against someone else who wants to make motorcycles and the company will probably go for something like $40 million and continue making motorcycles. The difference at that point being that the owner (whoever it might be) will be all-in and willing to invest to get EBR (or whatever it's called at that time) off the ground.

If Hero had spent money to market the brand over the past couple years, I think we'd be seeing them flying high now, but they didn't because they weren't all-in.

Scott
04-16-2015, 08:51 AM
Here's an interesting "What if". Once this goes up for bid, it could go to anybody - even people who may have learned about this by reading it yesterday when the rest of us did.

What if . . . Harley bought them?:shock:

Hughlysses
04-16-2015, 09:05 AM
^ Ha! That thought has occurred to me too. Wandell is out, right? Maybe the new HD CEO is more open-minded.

I really hope it turns out Hero is not the cause of this, but it does seem likely. Starting ~10 years ago, I corresponded with a guy that worked for a Swiss company that was trying to sell new locomotives (actually steam locomotives) to India to replace locomotives they'd supplied in the 1950's. He related how the Indians were extremely difficult to deal with and always wanted something for nothing. The Swiss were extremely suspicious that any engineering they provided would be quickly copied by the Indians and they'd be out of the picture. He didn't have much good to say about the Indians they dealt with.

Scott
04-16-2015, 09:26 AM
^ Ha! That thought has occurred to me too. Wandell is out, right? Maybe the new HD CEO is more open-minded.

I really hope it turns out Hero is not the cause of this, but it does seem likely. Starting ~10 years ago, I corresponded with a guy that worked for a Swiss company that was trying to sell new locomotives (actually steam locomotives) to India to replace locomotives they'd supplied in the 1950's. He related how the Indians were extremely difficult to deal with and always wanted something for nothing. The Swiss were extremely suspicious that any engineering they provided would be quickly copied by the Indians and they'd be out of the picture. He didn't have much good to say about the Indians they dealt with.

I respect and admire Erik and I hope ultimately he has a stake and a say in whatever is to come. But honestly, if it were my money and I was a minority owner and I was pumping cash to keep things going, I'd want to get something for my cash. "You want money? Give me something in return and that something I want is a larger ownership stake."

Once Erik sold 49%, he was hanging by his fingertips to his majority stake and he had nothing left to bargain with. But if he hadn't sold that 49%, EBR never would have gotten off the ground, so it's just the way it works.

There may not be any 'bad guys' here. Just different entities bringing different things to the table and everybody wanting more of a say regarding what they're putting their efforts into.

Hughlysses
04-16-2015, 11:18 AM
Some more details: http://www.bizjournals.com/milwaukee/news/2015/04/ 15/erik-buell-racing-shutters-east-troy-plant-file s.html (http://www.bizjournals.com/milwaukee/news/2015/04/15/erik-buell-racing-shutters-east-troy-plant-files.html)

quote:
Nixon [attourney for EBR] said the goal will be to find a buyer who will continue the motorcycle business. Bids will be solicited as part of the legal process, with the court to determine the winning bid.

Scott
04-16-2015, 12:43 PM
Some more details: http://www.bizjournals.com/milwaukee/news/2015/04/ 15/erik-buell-racing-shutters-east-troy-plant-file s.html (http://www.bizjournals.com/milwaukee/news/2015/04/15/erik-buell-racing-shutters-east-troy-plant-files.html)
quote:
Nixon [attourney for EBR] said the goal will be to find a buyer who will continue the motorcycle business. Bids will be solicited as part of the legal process, with the court to determine the winning bid.


That puts a number on the debt - $20 million - and that may have been Hero's red line. It would make sense since they paid $20 million for half of the company. Once the debt hit that limit something had to give.

It also gives us something to think about in a bid scenario. Imagine Polaris (again completely hypothetical) bids $40 million. In very simple terms (and I'm sure it's more complicated than this) $20 million would go toward the debt and Hero and Erik would each walk away with about $10 million. If Hero bid $50 million, they'd be paying Erik and themselves (after debt) about $15 million each, so they would only have to put out $35 million. That gives them an advantage over anyone else who is bidding.

It also illustrates that if the bidding gets crazy (lets say someone bids $90 million) Hero could walk away with $35 million and actually have made money on their initial investment (I don't think that will happen. I'm just throwing it out to illustrate).

With that dynamic in mind, it's at least possible this is somewhat amicable and Hero has a number they'll go to and if someone outbids that number they'll walk away happy with the money they'll keep (while getting out from under the $20 million debt). And if they have decided to go this way to see what happens, they may still be willing to work with Erik after everything is done (and they own the company outright).

It could be a lot simpler than I've been imagining and just a way to sort out who walks away with what, and if the company on the open market might be worth more than Hero thinks it is.

Hughlysses
04-16-2015, 12:48 PM
That's an interesting way to look at it, and it seems at least as plausible as anything I've read.

Scott
04-17-2015, 06:09 AM
Warning, for entertainment purposes only, here's what I think is happening and what led up to it. There are some facts, but a LOT of speculation, so take it with a grain of salt, but I'm just trying to piece everything I know together.

Ever since Hero bought 49% of the company, they've had their eye on the other 51% (they haven't made any secret of that and it's well documented).

But Erik was absolutely determined, after his experience with Harley, to not give up control and be pushed aside again.

Starting a motorcycle company is very difficult and very expensive. A lot of time and money has to be put into research, development, testing, certification etc. etc. etc. before any money is coming in the door.

Once a product is ready, it still takes time. Dealers need to be cultivated and developed (and the bad need to be weeded out from the good), people need to learn about the bike and know that it's available, and even those who know all about it are going to be reluctant to buy a bike from a company that might not be around in a few years.

Most companies start with very exotic, expensive bikes so that they can make money with a small crew selling a small number of bikes at a high price, but Erik didn't have time for that. He needed to get up and running quickly because he wanted to go superbike racing and he needed a minimum number of units to do that. Also, larger volume means lower cost, so he pushed to build a lot of bikes before the market was really demanding them - pushing on a string.

Sales were slow and debts were building up. The Superbike racing wasn't going well, and it wasn't generating as much attention as they needed to really get off the ground.

Hero likely made several offers to buy Erik out, but he didn't want to give up control. Hero realized with each passing day, his options became fewer and he became more desperate, so those offers shrank.

Erik tried to borrow more money to keep things going, but he couldn't get anyone to take the risk. Things were looking very grim.

It was clear to both Erik and Hero that something would have to break. Hero wasn't offering any more cash to prop up the failing company because they wanted ownership and cash would only come after they had ownership (and lack of cash would be a motivation for Erik to sell).

Erik likely approached potential investors who might like to buy the company if it were for sale and he likely found a few who might be interested if the price was low enough.

That gave him one last hope. If he could get someone else to buy it in combination with him putting some of his own money into it so he could maintain some ownership, he could still own a part of the company.

Receivership is not required by Chapter 128, but Erik has three of five votes on the board, so it would have been his choice to go into receivership.

Hero likely would have done this the easy way, but Erik is forcing them to do it the Hard way and they must now bid against potential other entities . . . but they have the cash and they want it and they're confident they'll get it (as evidenced by Larry Pegram's recent comments that this is just a reorganization and he has 'assurances' that it will work out).

Ultimately, I think Hero will own the company and move forward continuing to make EBR motorcycles, but there could be some drama before that happens. It's still possible someone else could buy it, and I believe that's what Erik is hoping for, but I think Hero will be willing to pay more than anybody else and they'll get it.

zviadi
04-17-2015, 07:04 AM
My opinion - for nothing Eric decided to participate in WSBK. It is too costly event. How many years of the Ducati didn't get anything with the 1199? How many years was made by BMW and what made? But it is the large corporations... And Eric's second year of existence of the firm decided to crawl over to where beaten by large corporations. His motorcycle was raw - it was early to put on a race at the international level.
Full of motorcycles, not participating in the races. They will not become worse.
I wish he increased build quality of its products...
With all due respect to the talent of Eric as a developer - do not pull his motorcycle price niche, which is a Panigale, RSV4 and S1000RR. Especially in design.
Everything must be brought to an end, should not be protruding fasteners and falling off from vibration silencers. This is top segment, everything should be nice and clean.

mackja
04-17-2015, 08:23 AM
This article on SBK site seems to say this is going to get worked out!
http://www.worldsbk.com/en/news/2015/Team+Hero+EBR+statement+following+EBR+closure

Scott
04-17-2015, 08:30 AM
My opinion - for nothing Eric decided to participate in WSBK. It is too costly event. How many years of the Ducati didn't get anything with the 1199? How many years was made by BMW and what made? But it is the large corporations... And Eric's second year of existence of the firm decided to crawl over to where beaten by large corporations. His motorcycle was raw - it was early to put on a race at the international level.
Full of motorcycles, not participating in the races. They will not become worse.
I wish he increased build quality of its products...
With all due respect to the talent of Eric as a developer - do not pull his motorcycle price niche, which is a Panigale, RSV4 and S1000RR. Especially in design.
Everything must be brought to an end, should not be protruding fasteners and falling off from vibration silencers. This is top segment, everything should be nice and clean.

I generally agree with your points, and I think fit and finish should have been better and the price a little lower, but I don't think those were the primary problems. These are exotic unique and rare bikes - unlike anything else on the road. When people buy a product like that, they expect to pay a little more for the exclusivity and maybe deal with some things that are a little 'rough around the edges'.

Consider a Lotus Elise vs. a Camaro. The Elise is going to be rough and uncomfortable and you might have bolts in awkward places that don't seem right. One could argue that the Camaro is a much better car by most measures, but the Elise is exotic and unique and unlike anything else on the road, so people will pay more for it and technically get a little less. The EBR should have been marketed like that so that it wasn't going up directly against the big-selling bikes. Eventually, as sales grew, EBR could work to refine things and improve those details.

I believe the big problem was a lack of investment by Hero (and I've already expressed that I think that lack of investment was very intentional). Last year was their first real year of sales. If Hero's primary goal was to get this brand going, they should have planned to fund the effort for a minimum 3 years of sales. That means they should have been willing to accept a loss until the end of 2016.

It's spring and there are a lot of EBR's out on dealer floors. The Superbike team will be doing better and (without this weeks announcement), EBR would have looked like they were here to stay and that would have encouraged people to go out and buy. I have almost no doubt that sales would have grown through this year and 2016 to the point they would have been a real, viable company going into 2017.

But I've already said Hero didn't want that, and I honestly believe it.

But let's step back a moment as the internet mourns and think about what's really likely to happen in the coming months.

I've already said I think Hero will buy them and keep things going (as much as possible) as if nothing ever happened. But what if they don't?

Let's imagine that Hero is completely done and cutting ties and not interested in EBR in any way. In that case, I would guess the physical assets EBR holds is probably worth about $3 million. So nobody who doesn't want to continue the business will bid more than that.

That means Erik Buell could buy the company for $4 million and nobody would stand in his way. I suspect he could swing that with some help from some friends. There's still that $20 million debt hanging out there, but that's manageable. They've got a product to sell and inventory and they can scale way down so their operating expenses are much smaller and start working down that debt. And with the restructured, leaner company, he could probably get a credit line with the company put up as collateral and Hero no longer in the way.

I absolutely don't think that will happen. I think if the company goes for $4 million, Hero or another motorcycle manufacturer will be the one buying it, but I'm just illustrating that the reports of EBR's death are being greatly exaggerated. We have to wait and see exactly how this shakes out, but I am as close to certain as I can be that the company will continue.

Scott
04-17-2015, 08:36 AM
This article on SBK site seems to say this is going to get worked out!
http://www.worldsbk.com/en/news/2015/Team+Hero+EBR+statement+following+EBR+closure


:thumb: Yeah, I saw that and I think it's the clearest evidence that this isn't over we've seen. Erik may be done, but I kind of doubt even that. Even if Hero and Erik hate each other after all this, I suspect they'll recognize his PR value and keep him on in some capacity.

Let's just calm down and see how this goes and stop talking about EBR in the past tense because I simply don't think that's the case.

Scott
04-17-2015, 09:21 AM
Anybody who really thinks EBR is done, think about this for a moment:

Was the company worth more two years ago when Hero paid $25 million for 49% or now?

I'd say they're worth more now. So with that in mind, will they be sold off for parts at $3 million, or will somebody be willing to pay the $24 million it would take to buy the company, pay off the debt and be up and running with the only US sportbike manufacturer in the world?

Hughlysses
04-17-2015, 10:10 AM
Scott- I think your scenario above must be pretty close to the truth. It occurs to me that things may have gone a step farther, like Erik saying "OK, I'll sell if you agree to keep the East Troy factory open and keep these people employed", Hero balks at that, and Erik says, "OK, I'll play hard ball."

One of the articles on the current situation quotes the lawyer in charge of the receivership as saying the intent is to sell the company intact. No guarantee that will happen, but that's the intent.

Here's another interestesting tidbit, from an Indian site: http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/industry/auto/news/two-wheelers/motorcycles/hero-motocorps-us-tech-partner-erik-buell-racing-files-for-bankruptcy/articleshow/46952124.cms

I thought this comment was interesting:
The investment it [Hero] made will be "pared down over a period of time", a top company executive said on the condition of anonymity. He declined to elaborate.If true, I wonder what that means? With EBR in receivership, it would seem Hero either has to buy the whole company or take their share of the cash from the sale and walk away.

Hughlysses
04-17-2015, 10:37 AM
Something else this reminds me of, the Mahindra diesel pickup fiasco of ~5 years ago. Indian auto (and tractor) maker Mahindra planned to import cheap, simple, small diesel pickups to the US. Similar in size and technical sophistication to early 70's Japanese pickups. A US dealer network was setup through a US importer, and quite a few dealers invested thousands of dollars. The contract language between Mahindra and the importer basically said Mahindra would attempt to get their trucks to meet US regulations (EPA, DOT, etc.) and if they could, the trucks would be imported to the US. If they couldn't get the trucks to pass by ~July 30, 2010, both parties could walk from the deal. Well, Mahindra went through all the testing and their trucks passed before the deadline, but they chose not to submit the paperwork requesting the formal approval. When July 30 (whatever the date was) they said "Oh well, the deal is off." It seems that the trucks met all the regs but fuel mileage was much worse than promised (24 MPG vs ~30 MPG, and for a small pickup) so Mahindra decided their trucks wouldn't be worth importing. The US distributor and the dealers were screwed. Here's one follow-up story on this debacle: http://www.autonews.com/article/20130318/RETAIL07/303189966/thwarted-mahindra-dealers-win-a-round

I wonder if something similar didn't happen with EBR and Hero? At the RX introduction 2 (?) years ago, it was said Hero models would be sold in the US through EBR dealers starting in 2014. Perhaps Hero strung EBR along with the promise "You design better bikes for us, and we will import those to the US so you can offer a full line up at your dealers." Hero decides the US is not a viable market, and never fulfills this agreement. EBR is left in a bind with no lower end motorcycles to sell, and projected profits never occur as a result.

Hmmm....

Scott
04-17-2015, 10:45 AM
Scott- I think your scenario above must be pretty close to the truth. It occurs to me that things may have gone a step farther, like Erik saying "OK, I'll sell if you agree to keep the East Troy factory open and keep these people employed", Hero balks at that, and Erik says, "OK, I'll play hard ball."



That's certainly possible. If I were Hero, I would want to keep the US plant open. Not only are they already set-up and running, but it gives Hero an all-important footprint in the US and the unique ability to offer an American Made sportbike (even if it is Indian owned). If I were Hero, I would also be making statements saying something along the lines of "We have every intention of buying the company and continuing business as usual with our full support and funding. If we're successful, all debts will be paid, all warranties will be honored, parts will be available and all dealers will be able to continue to stock and sell EBR motorcycles." Obviously that hasn't happened yet, and I suspect lawyers and people who want them to have every advantage in the bidding process may have prevented them from doing that.

I'd also be talking to and 'hiring' key EBR people - Even if they don't end up keeping the company running, it seems they intend to have a US presence and they could use talented people. I'd set up a temporary office somewhere and keep some of those people working as the legal process works itself out.

I would also be making every effort to keep things as civil as possible with Erik. I'd say something like: "We realize you have your own goals you're working on and while we're at odds at the moment regarding those goals, we'd like you to be part of our effort if we end up being the ones owning the company."

I think that last part may be a futile effort at this point, but from a public relations point of view, I think it's important for them to have Erik providing at least the appearance of being onboard.

Hughlysses
04-17-2015, 12:26 PM
Hero's stock is taking a hit because of this news: http://www.business-standard.com/article/news-cm/hero-motocorp-slips-nearly-5-in-two-sessions-115041700491_1.html

If they have anything to do with the current situation, it sure looks like they're shooting themselves in the foot.

Scott
04-17-2015, 01:31 PM
Hero's stock is taking a hit because of this news: http://www.business-standard.com/article/news-cm/hero-motocorp-slips-nearly-5-in-two-sessions-115041700491_1.html

If they have anything to do with the current situation, it sure looks like they're shooting themselves in the foot.

Think about that a second. Their market cap is something like $6 billion. A 5% stock hit is in the ballpark of $300 million . . . all because they're quibbling over $20 million debt.

Hughlysses
04-17-2015, 01:34 PM
Think about that a second. Their market cap is something like $6 billion. A 5% stock hit is in the ballpark of $300 million . . . all because they're quibbling over $20 million debt.

Wow- that does put it in perspective. I wonder if receivership is a non-reversible state? Could they still work something out, or does it have to proceed to sale of the company at this point?

Scott
04-17-2015, 03:00 PM
Wow- that does put it in perspective. I wonder if receivership is a non-reversible state? Could they still work something out, or does it have to proceed to sale of the company at this point?

While I'm no expert, I expect there are some pretty firm legal restrictions. After all, the process is designed to protect those involved and 'freeze' a moment in time to ensure after that point things go as they need to by a strict legal standard. I think a judge and lawyers handling the receivership now hold the cards and EBR - defined as a motorcycle company owned owned 51% by Erik Buell and 49% by Hero Motorcorp - no longer exists.

I suspect that's why events seemed so draconian on the day they shut down, and at this moment, if anybody wants to go on the premises, they should probably be accompanied by a lawyer. If they hadn't chosen to go into receivership, I think they still could have operated relatively normally, but I suspect once the receivership boom came down, things got pretty strict.

But again, I'm no expert. Anyone with real legal experience could probably clarify.

Scott
04-17-2015, 03:12 PM
http://www.investopedia.com/terms/r/receivership.asp

"In most cases the receiver is given ultimate decision-making powers and has full discretion in deciding how the received assets will be managed."

So I think the receiver, (I believe one of the articles mentioned the specific law firm that is the receiver in this case) pretty much controls what happens from here.

If Erik and Hero could come to an agreement that made sense (and I think the key question would be: "Will the outstanding debt get paid?") they probably could work something out, but the receiver would have to believe any plan was in the best interest of all involved.

Of course one interesting detail in this specific case is Erik was basically in charge right up until the moment of receivership and he could have chosen a receiver he would specifically want to work with.

Of course that receiver will have a code of ethics and I'm sure they won't do anything that clearly favors Erik over Hero, but Erik may have at least chosen someone he felt would work with whatever plan he had in mind.

Hughlysses
04-17-2015, 07:28 PM
This is the lawyer EBR requested to handle the receivership, and apparently he will:

http://www.bcblaw.net/bio/michael-polsky

Hughlysses
04-17-2015, 07:30 PM
This was posted to both EBR's and Erik's personal Facebook pages tonight:

Thank you for the supportive posts, texts, and e-mails since the announcement that EBR has ceased operations. This is a difficult time, and your comments mean a great deal to me personally and also to the EBR team that has done such amazing work over the past few, intense years. No doubt, it was an incredible ride, feeling like the longest qualifying lap ever. And, then, just when we knew we were about to set an all-time record, we tossed it in the last corner…
Keeping with racing analogies, now we need to get back on the track and look ahead remembering all the things we were doing right around so many turns.

Unfortunately, in the end, we tried to do too much with too little funding, but it doesn't diminish the accomplishments. We introduced the world class American super bikes of 1190RS, 1190RX and 1190SX, while at the same time doing revolutionary work for Hero on the HX250R, Leap, SimplEcity, iON, RnT and many others, plus concepts never publicly seen. It was great EBR innovation and design, and introduced new technology to Hero and its suppliers to provide a real kick start for them. But in the end all of this simply overwhelmed us, and for that we are sorry and saddened.

I want you to know that looking ahead my focus is 100% on helping the receiver best maximize the value from EBR to benefit all, and I will make every possible effort to get the new organization to where it can support the dealers and customers first, and then help find investment to get back to full throttle.

Thank you for your support, it means a great deal. Please stay tuned - I cannot predict the future, but always believe the best is yet to come.

Erik

Scott
04-18-2015, 07:48 AM
This is the lawyer EBR requested to handle the receivership, and apparently he will:

http://www.bcblaw.net/bio/michael-polsky

I think one thing that could work for us (people who want production to remain in the US and employ all or most of the people who were just let go by the previous entity), is that the receiver and judge will probably take impact on the community into account. So for example, if Hero bids $32 million and submits a plan to pay off debt and then take all the computer files to India to start production there and Erik and a partner bid $30 million but say they'll keep production in Wisconsin, I imagine they could win with a numerically lower bid.

And if Erik does partner with someone, he could use his equity to buy a stake in the new company. So in my example of a $30 million bid, Erik could sign over the $5 million he would get after the debt is paid and take 16% ownership of the new company and his partner would only have to pay $25 million. That would be a downgrade for Erik, but that's the price he'd have to pay for failing to get it done. And the higher the bidding went, the larger his stake.

And if he and Hero are willing, he could do something similar with them. That would be a good way for them to keep him on board and hopefully heal some bad blood (I'm glad to see he's not publicly calling them out in his comments - I guess I wouldn't expect him to, but if things were really bad, he might say more and burn that bridge).

If I had a magic wand, I'd like to see Erik and Polaris get together and buy it. With EBR added to the current Polaris line-up of Indian, Victory and Brammo, Polaris could have an amazing all-American line up. That would be really cool to see. And Polaris' motorcycle knowledge, dealer network and deep pockets could allow EBR to finally meet its potential.

But I'm afraid that's just wishful thinking and I still feel confident that Hero will be the owner. And with that reality in mind, I hope that they and Erik can continue to work together with him in a diminished role but still able to continue his vision.

Another Buell
04-18-2015, 08:17 AM
Does anybody know what's going to happen with those of us that actually own EBR bikes. I know personally Im worried about warranty issues and parts. I had ordered replacement fairings under warranty and they did come in before the shut down so I guess I got lucky. The head of the service department told me they can't get in touch with anyone at Ebr. They told me they likely won't get paid for the fairings but still put them on for me anyway. The place I got it from has been fantastic with their service for this bike so it's such a shame. They have bikes waiting on parts that are now just dead in the water and no one will tell them anything. So, I was wondering how others feel about this issue.

mackja
04-18-2015, 09:21 AM
I would not get worried yet, things will get clearer in the next few weeks. I am concerned as well about the availability of parts, but just as with the Buell products HD has provided parts through 2018. If the company is liquidated Hero may be responsible for support and warranty work for 7 years, if the company is sold and production continues the new company will provide support, this would be the best scenario for all concerned. Going to do some research on the issue.

Scott
04-18-2015, 10:28 AM
Does anybody know what's going to happen with those of us that actually own EBR bikes. I know personally Im worried about warranty issues and parts. I had ordered replacement fairings under warranty and they did come in before the shut down so I guess I got lucky. The head of the service department told me they can't get in touch with anyone at Ebr. They told me they likely won't get paid for the fairings but still put them on for me anyway. The place I got it from has been fantastic with their service for this bike so it's such a shame. They have bikes waiting on parts that are now just dead in the water and no one will tell them anything. So, I was wondering how others feel about this issue.


I would not get worried yet, things will get clearer in the next few weeks. I am concerned as well about the availability of parts, but just as with the Buell products HD has provided parts through 2018. If the company is liquidated Hero may be responsible for support and warranty work for 7 years, if the company is sold and production continues the new company will provide support, this would be the best scenario for all concerned. Going to do some research on the issue.


Yeah, owners, suppliers, dealers and employees are understandably concerned and upset right now because if the worst happens and EBR just disappears, we're all in trouble.

I'm 99% sure that won't happen, but that 1% uncertainty combined with how bad it will suck if the worst does happen is upsetting. And the lack of communication is the problem at the moment. Try to keep in mind that the lack of communication is because lawyers are involved and confidential negotiations are underway. The lack of communication is actually a good thing because if this was just over and going to be auctioned off for parts, those involved could say so because nothing would be on the line. The silence means there's a high stakes poker game going on and nobody wants to show their cards.

I mentioned it before, but I think it's worth going over again so we can all maintain perspective.

In 2013, before EBR had produced a real street bike and before any real dealer network was established, Hero paid $25 million dollars for 49% of the company. That means by their careful assessment the company was worth about $50 million. Now that real motorcycles exist and a production line is up and running and a dealer network exists, the real value of the company has to be greater than than that. But for the sake of discussion and illustration, let's imagine that Hero overestimated things by quite a bit and the real current value is only $40 million as a motorcycle manufacturer (I'm personally sure it's more than that, but I'm just using an intentionally low number to illustrate).

Now if we assume nobody is interested in running it as a motorcycle company, what's it worth? You've got some inventory and tooling that are basically worthless (and will actually cost money to dispose of). Then you've got some equipment, computers, office furniture etc. that could be sold off for some value. I'd guess less than a million, but again for the sake of discussion, let's inflate it to $3 million.

So as a motorcycle company it's worth $40 million. As scrap it's worth $3 million. If this company is on the auction block going twice for $3 million, SOMEBODY is going to jump in. At that price Erik himself could probably jump in and buy it, and once he owns it free and clear he can use that approximately $40 million value as a motorcycle company to get the cash he needs to not only pay off the debt, but have plenty of cash to keep operating and get into the black.

I don't think that will happen because I think somebody else (most likely Hero) will jump in and outbid whatever Erik could do, but the key point is there's too much value there for the world to let it be auctioned off for $3 million, and somebody will almost certainly buy it to make motorcycles. And once they've bought it to make motorcycles, a good part of the value of the company will be the existing suppliers, dealers and owners, so that company will make efforts to keep us happy.

Hughlysses
04-18-2015, 04:53 PM
Another thing that (hopefully) EBR has to add to their value- ready-to-build designs for motorcycles we haven't seen yet. I'm guessing they have at least the AX designed, and maybe one or two smaller bikes. If Polaris wants to make Victory their performance bike brand, acquiring EBR would be an easy way to do it.

Scott
04-18-2015, 05:34 PM
Another thing that (hopefully) EBR has to add to their value- ready-to-build designs for motorcycles we haven't seen yet. I'm guessing they have at least the AX designed, and maybe one or two smaller bikes. If Polaris wants to make Victory their performance bike brand, acquiring EBR would be an easy way to do it.

Yep. It seems almost a no brainer that Polaris would be at least interested in using EBR to plug the hole in their offerings.

BUT a complication with the smaller bikes is they probably use at least some Hero components. And that's also why Hero needs EBR, and, I suspect will be willing to outbid everyone else. EBR and EBR's future products and EBR's dealer network and EBR's engineers are integrated Hero's future plans.

That's why I suspect Hero was able to give Larry Pegram 'assurances'. There's no way they're letting anyone else get their hands on EBR and they'll pay what they need to to get it.

I'd be willing to bet Polaris (and maybe some other companies) would be very interested up to about $30 million. Above that, it becomes less attractive, and I think other bidders will drop off above that level with Hero ultimately getting it.

Another Buell
04-19-2015, 09:16 AM
Thanks for the replies. I really appreciate them. They definitely help ease the worry. My heart goes out to all the families and people affected by the whole situation. For me it's just a worry about parts and service. I can't imagine how the families directly affected by the whole thing must feel. Or how disappointed Erik must feel. But hopefully in the end something good come out of it. It just doesn't make sense for whoever pulled the funding to do so now. It seems like things were really starting to take off. I know the dealership I bought my bike from had sold a couple units in the past year. And in sure more would have sold as time went on. I think the price was a bit hi, but these bikes are just absolutely amazing to ride. I mean, they have always been. I have owned an XB9 and an 08and 09 1125. For me, no other bike was better. And I know as time went on people would realize this. But at the same time, the prices needed to be lower. The insurance rates for these bikes are so high, I'm sure that was a deciding factor in people's final decision to buy. I'm 37 and still pay almost a thousand a year. So for the younger crowd, a bike payment of say 250 plus insurance if around the same is just to much. So how to fix that I don't know, but surely some other models in the line up would have helped. Hopefully we will get the chance to see something great come from all of this. It would be so sad to see a mans lifetime of work and all his teams work just go away in the blink of an eye over funding. I just can not imagine this situation would not have been discussed before production started. Surely they had to know the first year would have been hard and not much money would be made. All first year bikes have issues, let alone two first year bikes and a brand new company. This could not have been ignored. That's why I'm so shocked. But again hopefully something good happens for all involved.

xenno92
04-19-2015, 04:19 PM
reading all your responses eases my worries as well. I just got an 1190SX last month. I love this bike sooo much. My insurrance came out to almost 2,500 and i was a bit tight on money so my guy helped me out and lowered me to liability dropping it to 190 for the whole year (LOL). I was nervous to take out my bike then, now hearing they shut down makes me just want to put the bike away in the garage. i feel maybe i made a mistake buying this bike since i planned to use it as my daily form of transportation. I guess it's safe to assume there is no factory warrenty and getting my hands of parts (if needed) will be tough. Im just hopping the dealership will at least to give me warrenty

Hughlysses
04-19-2015, 06:09 PM
Audio interview with the editor of Cycle World about the closure:

http://www.cycleworld.com/2015/04/17/cycle-world-eic-mark-hoyer-talks-about-erik-buell-racing-bankruptcy-on-milwaukee-radio-station/#.VTJPGE3at0o.facebook

Scott
04-20-2015, 07:17 PM
Audio interview with the editor of Cycle World about the closure:

http://www.cycleworld.com/2015/04/17/cycle-world-eic-mark-hoyer-talks-about-erik-buell-racing-bankruptcy-on-milwaukee-radio-station/#.VTJPGE3at0o.facebook

:thumb:

I'm hoping we'll hear something by early May from the receiver or interested parties. I would hope and expect the receiver is pushing for things to happen relatively quickly (by legal standards) since it's in the interest of everyone involved to get some clarity sooner rather than later.

Hughlysses
04-20-2015, 07:31 PM
Yea, it seems like the longer this takes the worse it is for everyone. Employees are already finding other work, dealers are selling off inventory, hell, there are probably some owners trying to unload their bikes. Fingers crossed that something good comes out of this.

Hughlysses
04-20-2015, 08:03 PM
BTW- www.ebrracewear.com has all their stuff at half off. I threw a few bucks their way tonight. They have added quite a few new T-shirts recently and have some other nice-looking gear as well.

Scott
04-21-2015, 09:32 AM
Yea, it seems like the longer this takes the worse it is for everyone. Employees are already finding other work, dealers are selling off inventory, hell, there are probably some owners trying to unload their bikes. Fingers crossed that something good comes out of this.

Unfortunately, I think a lot of people are going to lose jobs no matter how this shakes out - and they'll probably be the people who needed jobs the most.

It seems like one of the biggest problems they had was they overproduced bikes, so I'd expect them to downsize to maybe 60 employees even assuming they get back up and running soon. They're going to need to trim things down and let demand catch up with supply and then begin growing again slowly and methodically.

Now I'll preface my following comments by saying again I'm not a lawyer, I've never been through anything like this, I don't have any inside information, I'm simply piling guess upon guess upon guess and applying some common sense. With that said:

I suspect there are probably about 10 people - top engineers and business people - who have a pretty good idea of what's going on and know they'll have a job with one entity or another if they get back up and running. Some of those people may even be employed by the receiver right now.

I suspect there are people right now going through things and counting paper clips so a full report can be generated prior to the start of any bidding. While independent lawyers and accountants could be brought in to do that, it would be a lot more efficient to use people who know where things are. So those people and people close to them probably know, for example: "Yeah, Erik is working with his partner X and he's going to try to make a bid for it and Hero is also going to bid for it and they've both told me I'll have a job with their new company."

In some cases people may know they'll have a job with one entity but not the other so they'll have a rooting interest. And if Hero gets it (and will keep operations in Wisconsin), I suspect we can expect an influx of Indian engineers and managers heading to East Troy to set up camp.

Hughlysses
04-21-2015, 11:13 AM
I rooted around at Linkedin.com last night to see what was going on with EBR employees. It's interesting to note that most of the upper level guys haven't updated their listings, while many of the mid-to-lower level guys have already updated their listings to say they're looking for work. Lots of references to the work they've done for Hero, too.

This would seem to go along with what you say in the post above. Over on Badweb, Court mentioned that some guys had bailed in the last month or so, well ahead of the announcement, so the word must have been getting out that their situation was precarious.

Scott
04-21-2015, 12:40 PM
I rooted around at Linkedin.com last night to see what was going on with EBR employees. It's interesting to note that most of the upper level guys haven't updated their listings, while many of the mid-to-lower level guys have already updated their listings to say they're looking for work. Lots of references to the work they've done for Hero, too.


Yep, that is interesting. We know that someone gave Larry Pegram "assurances" and I suspect other key people (though probably not the line-workers) have received similar "assurances".

My wife worked for a company once that declared bankruptcy while simultaneously starting a new company. She was 'let go' by the bankrupt company and hired by the new entity so that she never missed a day of work but technically worked for one company one day and a different company the next.

Some key people might already be under contract with Hero. While there are clearly legal restrictions on many elements of the bankruptcy, I believe Hero would have every legal right (and they'd certainly have the cash) to hire key personnel right now. That would give them a lot of leverage in any bidding war (Polaris, for example, would be less interested in the company if they knew top engineering people were under contract with Hero), and if Hero ultimately lost the bidding war, they could always keep those people on to help with their US operations and fill the void that would be left by the loss of EBR.

Hughlysses
04-21-2015, 01:31 PM
One other thing I checked yesterday is the EPA listings for motorcycle engines that have been certified to meet current US emissions regulations. I started looking at this site occasionally way back during the early days of EBR to see if they had anything in the works back then. You can find the listings here:

http://www.epa.gov/otaq/crttst.htm

There are separate spreadsheets for 2015 and 2016 (dated March 2015) and there are NO Hero products listed. I'm still wondering if Hero hasn't pushed back their timetable for coming to the US. If so, they may have lost interest in supporting EBR since EBR has already assisted in the design of a new range of Hero motorcycles and scooters AND helped train an in-house design team for Hero.

Scott
04-21-2015, 02:20 PM
One other thing I checked yesterday is the EPA listings for motorcycle engines that have been certified to meet current US emissions regulations. I started looking at this site occasionally way back during the early days of EBR to see if they had anything in the works back then. You can find the listings here:

http://www.epa.gov/otaq/crttst.htm

There are separate spreadsheets for 2015 and 2016 (dated March 2015) and there are NO Hero products listed. I'm still wondering if Hero hasn't pushed back their timetable for coming to the US. If so, they may have lost interest in supporting EBR since EBR has already assisted in the design of a new range of Hero motorcycles and scooters AND helped train an in-house design team for Hero.

As far as I know, the 250 hasn't started production yet, so I think step 1 is get the thing rolling off the line. Step 2 - start selling in India and other markets Hero is already in. Step 3 start selling in Europe, US and other new markets. So I don't think getting it certified by the EPA is a top priority (though that is very interesting information). I wouldn't be surprised if Hero and EBR had already decided they would want a 300 cc version to sell in the US and that might be part of the delay on the US side.

Hero's schedule for the 250 may be changing as they work things out (in India - probably unrelated to anything happening in the US), but I think the concept of Hero 'losing interest' in EBR (as many people seem to infer based on the events of last week) is a near impossibility.

You simply don't invest $25 million to buy 49% of a fledgling company one year and then, less than 2 years later when the company is much more established walk away without paying the $20 million debt you'd need to pay off to own the more established company outright. Companies like Hero make long-term investments and long-term plans and those plans don't shift and drift with the wind.

But when a company like Hero is in a position in which they will be forced to bid on an entity that they consider crucial to their future plans, they are savvy enough not to let everybody else know how crucial that entity is to their future plans, and I suspect that's why they haven't made any statements yet. They're probably still working on their strategy, but I'll bet there are a lot of people at Hero who aren't getting a lot of sleep these days.

Hughlysses
04-21-2015, 02:41 PM
But when a company like Hero is in a position in which they will be forced to bid on an entity that they consider crucial to their future plans, they are savvy enough not to let everybody else know how crucial that entity is to their future plans, and I suspect that's why they haven't made any statements yet. They're probably still working on their strategy, but I'll bet there are a lot of people at Hero who aren't getting a lot of sleep these days.

I can't find the quote right now, but one of the articles in the Indian press quoted a Hero executive who basically said "we aren't worried about it as we have our own in-house design capability now". Like you say though, this may well be "blowing smoke" on Hero's part.

Scott
04-21-2015, 07:02 PM
I can't find the quote right now, but one of the articles in the Indian press quoted a Hero executive who basically said "we aren't worried about it as we have our own in-house design capability now". Like you say though, this may well be "blowing smoke" on Hero's part.

That was likely an attempt to halt the stock freefall. But if that's really true and nobody else is interested, that's great news for Erik Buell. He'll be able to get his company back.

Hughlysses
04-22-2015, 04:23 AM
Cross-post from Badweb; teaser from Australian Motorcycle News:


quote:AMCN can confirm EBR falling under receivership was all part of a carefully planned strategy for Indian giant and 49.2 percent part-owner Hero MotoCorp to gain full control of the company.
As reported by AMCN, Erik Buell’s company EBR went into receivership last Wednesday, is now bankrupt, and under the control of a court-appointed liquidator. However, all is not what it seems.
Don’t miss next week’s issue of Australian Motorcycle News for all the dirty laundry as to why the world’s biggest motorcycle maker decided this was the best way forward, on sale Thursday 30 April.

http://www.amcn.com.au/news/1504/ebr-receivership- is-part-of-the-plan! (http://www.amcn.com.au/news/1504/ebr-receivership-is-part-of-the-plan!)

Scott
04-22-2015, 06:06 AM
Cross-post from Badweb; teaser from Australian Motorcycle News:

quote:AMCN can confirm EBR falling under receivership was all part of a carefully planned strategy for Indian giant and 49.2 percent part-owner Hero MotoCorp to gain full control of the company.
As reported by AMCN, Erik Buell’s company EBR went into receivership last Wednesday, is now bankrupt, and under the control of a court-appointed liquidator. However, all is not what it seems.
Don’t miss next week’s issue of Australian Motorcycle News for all the dirty laundry as to why the world’s biggest motorcycle maker decided this was the best way forward, on sale Thursday 30 April.

http://www.amcn.com.au/news/1504/ebr-receivership- is-part-of-the-plan! (http://www.amcn.com.au/news/1504/ebr-receivership-is-part-of-the-plan!)

That will certainly be interesting to read. I'm a little skeptical that receivership was actually part of the plan. I suspect the actual plan was to starve EBR of cash, not market the bikes and put minimal effort into racing with the expectation that Erik would sell his portion when things got tight.

I doubt receivership was actually Hero's plan, but now that it's happened, I'm sure they're prepared to deal with it and get the company.

. . . and then I think we'll start seeing the kind of investment in marketing and racing that they should have had over the last year and a half.

I just hope when everything is done, Erik still has a meaningful role.

Hughlysses
04-22-2015, 06:58 AM
Receivership would be one way to settle any dickering over the acquisition price. Perhaps Hero tried to low-ball Erik, and he said "Fine, we'll let a court decide what EBR is worth."

Hughlysses
04-22-2015, 07:06 AM
Now here's an interesting article on the closure. A layman's level legal explanation of the receivership process and what it could mean for EBR:

http://www.asphaltandrubber.com/oped/erik-buell-racing-receivership-explained/

Scott
04-22-2015, 07:46 AM
Receivership would be one way to settle any dickering over the acquisition price. Perhaps Hero tried to low-ball Erik, and he said "Fine, we'll let a court decide what EBR is worth."

I think the problem with this is (from my understanding) he would lose all standing in receivership. The receiver now owns the company and, theoretically (if no other companies are interested), Hero could buy the company for $20 million and that money would go to pay the debt. Erik would no longer own anything and and he wouldn't even get any cash out of the deal. Though I could be mistaken in my understanding of the process.

Of course if Erik knows that Polaris is willing to go as high as $80 million, that changes the dynamic completely, and in that case, Erik could do very well for himself even if Hero ultimately is the victor. In that scenario, if Hero wins with a $81 million bid, Erik would walk away with roughly $31 million and that's almost certainly more than Hero would have offered. But I also think that's extreme and doubt anybody else would bid enough to allow Erik to walk away with more than Hero has probably offered him recently.


Now here's an interesting article on the closure. A layman's level legal explanation of the receivership process and what it could mean for EBR:

http://www.asphaltandrubber.com/oped/erik-buell-racing-receivership-explained/

:thumb:

This seems to be consistent with my understanding.

If my speculation is correct, I think this could be very analogous to a divorce. Hero said to Erik: "Here's the deal: We're going to give you a generous check. We'll keep custody of the children and you just walk away."

But he said: "No, I'm going to try to get custody of the children." and receivership is his only option to battle for that custody.

But Hero has the best lawyers and they can illustrate to the judge they can make the best home, so they're likely to end up with custody.

Imagine Erik's conflict at that point. He would have to be pissed, but they're still his children and he wants to see them do well and he realizes once Hero has full control and starts putting money in to it his children (the bikes) could finally shine and reach their potential.

Does he just walk away at that point and (at 65) say: "I can always have more children." or does he do his best to be civil and continue to work with Hero to see EBR become a world-class brand?

Hughlysses
04-22-2015, 08:01 AM
Very interesting analogy.


Does he just walk away at that point and (at 65) say: "I can always have more children." or does he do his best to be civil and continue to work with Hero to see EBR become a world-class brand?

Well, based on his statement on Facebook, Erik's indicated he'll do his best to be civil and work with Hero, or whoever winds up with his "children".

Scott
04-22-2015, 10:18 AM
Very interesting analogy.



Well, based on his statement on Facebook, Erik's indicated he'll do his best to be civil and work with Hero, or whoever winds up with his "children".

Yeah, he certainly hasn't burned any bridges publicly, but I suspect there has to be some bad feelings on both sides. Since I believe Hero will buy the company, our best hope as fans who all presumably want to see the company continue as close to what it has been for the past 5 years (but hopefully with better funding) will be for Erik and Hero to continue to work together. I think it will be tough, but I also think both sides will do much better together than apart so hopefully emotions don't get in the way.

Of course if Polaris jumped in and bought the whole thing and threw all their support into it, I'd be giddy, but I just don't see that happening.

Scott
04-22-2015, 10:42 AM
But I think the key point of these recent articles that shouldn't be lost in my speculation and rambling is they seem to confirm my feeling from the start - Just because they ominously announced that the plant was closed doesn't mean this is the end.

There's too much value here (against meaninglessly small debt) for this to just go away. Somebody will continue to make these motorcycles and they'll probably still be called EBR's and Erik Buell will probably still be involved. We're just waiting to hear the details, not realistically thinking this is the end (though many people around the internet seem to have jumped to that conclusion and seem to still be on that page).

In 2009, the situation was much more grim than it is now. At that time, Harley owned everything and they didn't want anybody else making those motorcycles. If they had sold Buell at that time for $20 million, somebody undoubtedly would have bought them. Hero doesn't have that control or power. The receiver owns them now and the receiver (unlike Harley) wants someone to buy the company and continue making motorcycles.

budgolf
04-22-2015, 11:52 AM
I keep seeing people say that there is no way this is over and that EBR is going to just cease to exist. That there is to much value here. And while I sure hope that to be the case, I keep thinking about how we aren't really talking about a whole lot of money here. And that companies in the past have walked away from or spent a hell of a lot more just to get rid of something. How many millions did Harley spend to shut Buell down? A lot more that 20. They spent millions and millions on MV, and sold it for 3 bucks plus and extra 20 million to the buyer. Just to get rid of it.

Which is why the whole deal spooks me. It's complete nonsense to us that EBR would be allowed to just disappear....but much dumber things have happened in recent motorcycling history.

Scott
04-22-2015, 12:11 PM
I keep seeing people say that there is no way this is over and that EBR is going to just cease to exist. That there is to much value here. And while I sure hope that to be the case, I keep thinking about how we aren't really talking about a whole lot of money here. And that companies in the past have walked away from or spent a hell of a lot more just to get rid of something. How many millions did Harley spend to shut Buell down? A lot more that 20. They spent millions and millions on MV, and sold it for 3 bucks plus and extra 20 million to the buyer. Just to get rid of it.

Which is why the whole deal spooks me. It's complete nonsense to us that EBR would be allowed to just disappear....but much dumber things have happened in recent motorcycling history.

I remember wondering myself where all the money was going to shut Buell down. I expect they had some severance options and a lot of issues with dealers in terms of dealer inventory signage etc. Plus a lot of in process inventory that probably had to be destroyed. They probably had to pay off the contract for the Helicon engine development that originally was factored into a presumed minimum buy etc. etc. etc. A lot of those costs probably wouldn't have been incurred if they had continued the business or allowed somebody else to continue it. So in this case, it's probably less expensive to continue than to stop. But Harley recognized the value and didn't want competition so they decided it was

With MV, Harley overpaid, but the reason they over-paid is that an up-and-running sportbike manufacturer like MV is worth something. And if you think about the models they offered at that time, they were very high-priced with little to offer to justify that price. Didn't they have models that were going for something like $60,000 to $80,000? Since then, they've introduced much better bikes than they had . . . and they're still running, aren't they?

But the key point in this particular case is Hero's investment in July 2013 in which they paid $25 million for 49% of a company that didn't have any real street bikes. Now that company has a dealer network and real street bikes that they didn't have when Hero placed their initial investment, so it is almost certainly worth more than the $25 million Hero would have been willing to pay to complete the deal just a short time ago. Now they can get it for $20 million, so there's no reason to think they aren't still interested. Particularly with evidence like Larry Pegram's recent comments.

And as I've mentioned before, even if no big companies want to step in, Erik Buell himself will have the option to buy (with relatively minimal help from some investors). In that case, the company won't be up and running at full strength, but he should be able to shift it to being a smaller company than it was and continue.

Hughlysses
04-22-2015, 12:38 PM
^ Regarding the Buell closure, remember that a LOT of 1125's were sold at what had to be below-cost. Of course, I had it on pretty good authority that Buell was able to purchase Helicon engines from Rotax for significantly less than they paid Harley for the XB engines. If that's true, that would explain why 1125's were going for ~$2k less than XB's during the fire sale.

budgolf
04-22-2015, 01:40 PM
I sure hope something happens to keep them open. i hate having to go through this for a second time. I don't regret my purchase at all, but it will be awesome to see some good come out of the deal. Especially for dealers and the workers in East troy.

Hughlysses
04-23-2015, 03:11 PM
Short-but-interesting post-closure interview with Erik just posted: http://www.motorcyclistonline.com/erik-buell-racing-ceases-operations-ebr-update-bankruptcy-industry-news?src=SOC&dom=fb

He doesn't say much, but it sounds like Hero may be out of the picture.

budgolf
04-23-2015, 06:58 PM
Yeah it soure sounds like they've gone elsewhere

Scott
04-23-2015, 08:16 PM
He doesn't say much, but it sounds like Hero may be out of the picture.

I still don't think so. This fits with what I had speculated previously. What I still believe is that Indian gave him the initial $25 million but that was it. The only way he would get cash out of them would be to sell more of the company. They would buy services from the company, sponsor the race team etc., but cash was Erik's problem.

If he wanted cash, he would have to go elsewhere or sell. He probably thought he had a loan lined up, but after the lender examined the books, that money didn't come and left him high and dry.

The thing that strikes me about that article is it reminds us how bad things were after Harley and what Erik did. He had nothing, but he bought up the old racing parts, rented a building and started a company to start designing bikes from scratch and continue supporting Buell racers and owners in any small way he could.

He scratched and scraped and put a small company together and started selling the 1190RS with his eye toward larger volume bikes - the 1190RX, SX and beyond. Hero gave him the cash he needed to get those bikes going, but he overextended himself. When the bikes he produced weren't selling fast enough, he got into debt and we ended here.

Now think about that and imagine the worst case scenario. No big companies are interested. As I've said, I don't think that will happen, but if, hypothetically, it does, here's what I think will happen:

Erik will buy the company for approximately $1 million dollars. He'll hire back his very small core of key, trusted people that helped him get restarted 5 years ago and he'll start again. He'll be $20 million in debt, but he'll have far more assets than he had before (A good portion of the $25 million he got from Hero probably went toward paying off debts he had racked up prior to their involvement to get the company up and off the ground).

He'll probably need to drop some of the underperforming dealers, but he'll keep the best. He'll get production back up and running (but at a much slower pace) and he'll make sure parts are available for existing owners. He'll probably create a new bike that falls between the 1190RS and RX with enough exotic parts to justify the $25,000 price he'll have to charge for the lower volume production model, but the lower volume production combined with only enthusiastic dealers will help ensure supply doesn't get ahead of demand and keep plant costs down. Like the original days of Buell (prior to Harley) he'll be selling an expensive but very unique bike to a small number of enthusiasts who want a unique, American sportbike. He won't have as many employees and he won't be buying components as quickly, but all the tooling will be in place, so he won't have to go back and design and build all that from scratch. Most suppliers will probably work with him. Some might demand cash up-front and others may refuse his business, but enough of them will want to get some value out of the equipment and tooling they've already paid for to work with him and help him get back on his feet.

I don't think any of that will happen because I think Hero will buy everything, but that's the absolute worst-case scenario I imagine.

Hughlysses
04-23-2015, 08:23 PM
It'll definitely be interesting to see what that Aussie M/C magazine has to say about EBR's receivership and Hero next week.

Someone posted this other bit of recent news about Hero on ADVrider: http://www.rediff.com/money/report/german-firm-hurls-espionage-charge-at-hero-cycles/20141009.htm

Hughlysses
04-24-2015, 06:46 AM
Interesting, a couple of EBR owners on Badweb posted that they received letters in the mail yesterday, "Notice of Receivership, Bar Date for Filing Claims, and Injunction" from the State of Wisconsin.

I'm guessing this is part of the receivership process, since these guys bought EBR motorcycles with a 2 year warranty and therefore they have an interest in the outcome of the receivership.

Scott
04-24-2015, 07:24 AM
Interesting, a couple of EBR owners on Badweb posted that they received letters in the mail yesterday, "Notice of Receivership, Bar Date for Filing Claims, and Injunction" from the State of Wisconsin.

I'm guessing this is part of the receivership process, since these guys bought EBR motorcycles with a 2 year warranty and therefore they have an interest in the outcome of the receivership.

Yeah, I'm sure it's part of the process. And while the receiver probably has a very good idea of where this is going, they probably can't say a damn thing other than to ensure us the process is underway.

The linked Hero article may not tell us much specifically about what's going on here, but it certainly seems to confirm they're willing to take whatever they can get out of any business relationship.

And yeah, the Australian article will be interesting not only for what it says, but for what it may force Hero to address. Because of the legal proceedings, all parties are being very tight-lipped, but depending on the questions the article raises, Hero may be forced to respond in some way.

budgolf
04-24-2015, 10:00 PM
Got my letter in the mail today. I can't imagine filing a claim against an idol of mine.

Hughlysses
04-25-2015, 06:05 AM
Well, if you'd ordered parts, like a race ECM for instance, from their on-line store and haven't received them, that would be a legitimate claim. Hopefully the receiver would allow those parts to be shipped if they're in stock.

The purpose of sending the letters around is so the receiver can determine exactly how much EBR owes, so that if/when the company is sold those debts can be paid off.

Scott
04-25-2015, 07:41 AM
The frustrating thing is it's going to take several months minimum to collect all the information, file all the papers and even get to the point the bidding process can start.

While there's a lot that's uncertain about this whole thing, here's something I can tell you with absolute certainty: If I win a big lottery in the near future, there's going to be at least one bidder who has every intention of keeping the company going.

Hughlysses
04-25-2015, 08:10 AM
The letter gives recipients 90 days to make a claim, so yea, it seems like it's gonna be at least 3 or 4 months before anything happens, or at least before anything is finalized.

I watched "the Ragged Edge" again this morning. At several points, Erik comments on camera about how hugely difficult it is to get investors to invest in small American manufacturers. There's gobs of money out there, it's just that everyone's looking for a quick payoff. You can really feel his conviction that this philosophy HAS to change if this country is going to continue to be a great place.

Scott
04-25-2015, 06:36 PM
Nothing really new here, but a nice summary with some optimism for the future: http://www.cheatsheet.com/automobiles/erik-buell-bankruptcy-and-the-death-of-the-american-superbike.html/?a=viewall

Hughlysses
04-26-2015, 08:08 AM
Posted to German site Speedweek today: Motorcycle Giant Hero Could Easily Save EBR

http://translate.googleusercontent.com/translate_c?depth=1&hl=en&prev=search&rurl=translate.google.com&sl=de&u=http://www.speedweek.com/sbk/news/73529/Motorrad-Gigant-Hero-koennte-Buell-(EBR)-leicht-retten.html&usg=ALkJrhjM1JvAFzfrdji0UWqTxXyJQLCGBA

Scott
04-26-2015, 01:45 PM
Posted to German site Speedweek today: Motorcycle Giant Hero Could Easily Save EBR

http://translate.googleusercontent.com/translate_c?depth=1&hl=en&prev=search&rurl=translate.google.com&sl=de&u=http://www.speedweek.com/sbk/news/73529/Motorrad-Gigant-Hero-koennte-Buell-(EBR)-leicht-retten.html&usg=ALkJrhjM1JvAFzfrdji0UWqTxXyJQLCGBA

I don't know if Hero truly understands how tiny $20 million is compared to the public relations nightmare they could be creating for themselves if they don't handle this right.

Motorcycles (in the US as opposed to India) aren't logical or rational or practical - they're emotional. Harley Davidson wouldn't exist if that weren't true. Launching an Indian motorcycle in the USA, Europe, Australia etc. will be difficult. Doing it while being known by the motorcycle community as "that Indian company that chewed up Erik Buell, spit him out and then tried to claim his technology as their own" will be 10X harder.

I know that the last thing someone wants to do going into an auction is announce to everybody just how much you want whatever is being auctioned, but in less than two weeks, Hero has squandered all the good will they received after buying into EBR, and unless they make some comments on the whole thing soon, they're going to take on a villainous image that will be hard to come back from.

If, when they start introducing motorcycles to the US market, they can't do so with Erik Buell smiling and standing by their side, they're going to have a very hard time ingratiating themselves to the US motorcycling community.

Hughlysses
04-28-2015, 07:01 AM
A short article on Hero with a mention of EBR from this week's Cycle News. I don't know if Hero will acquire EBR, or if they would be free of any responsibility for supporting the existing EBR bikes, but I think if they do, they will rue the day.

362

Scott
04-28-2015, 07:33 AM
I would say, assuming nobody else is interested, they're free to do pretty much whatever they want including walking away.

They could also buy all the technology, take everything to India and start making Hero 1190RX and SX's.

But if they are smart (and I believe they are) and they want to sell motorcycles in the US market, I think they'll buy the company and get it back up and running as a US entity. They'll keep the EBR name, they'll hire Erik Buell (even if only as a symbolic spokesperson) and they'll honor all warranties and make a big effort to make current owners, dealers and suppliers happy.

IMO the public relations and image issues (and dealer network) are more important to selling motorcycles in the US than the actual motorcycles (at least until they've been here for a while and have a product reputation that can stand on its own. I believe they have every legal right to turn their backs on all involved, but that won't help them sell motorcycles.

Scott
04-28-2015, 07:46 AM
I had mentioned, somewhat jokingly, a while back that Harley could buy EBR, but I've been starting to think a little more about that.

Does anybody know anything about this Matt Levatich who will be taking over in a few days? I know that when Harley cut Buell loose, there was a split in Harley management and some were friends and fans of Erik, while others had issues with him. Does anyone know if Levatich was friend or foe?

One thing I know about Levatich is that he headed the MV Augusta effort. Does that mean he butted heads with Erik, or does it mean they were kindred spirits? Does it mean that Levatich was soured on the idea of sport-bikes, or, like Erik, did he realize the potential but wasn't given the resources to see it through? We saw that after Harley sold them, MV unveiled some very nice bikes that, presumably, were being developed under Levatich.

Will Levatich want to make his stamp and show that he has a vision for the future of the company? Does he realize that somewhat drastic action might be required to compete with the juggernaut Polaris is assembling? Could EBR make a lot of sense to accomplish some of the goals Harley should have at this point?

And does Harley realize that they'd much rather have EBR as a part of their company rather than a competitor? And let's not forget about the simple proximity and history (including dealers and people currently working at Harley who were a big part of Buell).

The more I think about it, the less crazy it seems that Harley could have some interest here. EBR is a much different company than Buell was when they cut them and could operate as a more independent entity than they had in the past - to the mutual benefit of both Harley and EBR (EBR could even keep their non-Harley dealers if Harley does it right, but Harley dealers could also have the option if they really want it and would invest to do it right). I think Harley should at least be considering the possibilities.

And since Harley owns the Buell name, they could go back to simply 'Buell' if they decide they want to.

Doosh
04-28-2015, 08:05 AM
Wow, wouldn't that be just the wild ride if EBR returned to Harley.

Wandel, the former Harley CEO, hated sport bikes and saw no reason for them to exist. There's little doubt that entered into the Buell shutdown.

Hughlysses
04-28-2015, 08:18 AM
Wow, wouldn't that be just the wild ride if EBR returned to Harley.

Wandel, the former Harley CEO, hated sport bikes and saw no reason for them to exist. There's little doubt that entered into the Buell shutdown.

Yea, Wandel came from Johnson Controls prior to joining Harley, and had NO motorcycle background whatsoever.

Doosh
04-28-2015, 08:24 AM
Yea, Wandel came from Johnson Controls prior to joining Harley, and had NO motorcycle background whatsoever.

Which was probably fine for Harley, considering most of their business isn't making motorcycles.

Hughlysses
04-28-2015, 11:40 AM
Which was probably fine for Harley, considering most of their business isn't making motorcycles.

In that case, I'm surprised Wandell didn't stop motorcycle production altogether so they could focus on their core business of selling Harley branded paraphernalia. :evilgrinblack:

Hughlysses
04-28-2015, 11:47 AM
Does anybody know anything about this Matt Levatich who will be taking over in a few days? I know that when Harley cut Buell loose, there was a split in Harley management and some were friends and fans of Erik, while others had issues with him. Does anyone know if Levatich was friend or foe?

I found this piece which has one tidbit of interesting info: http://www.mccormick.northwestern.edu/magazine/spring-2013/alumni-profile-matthew-levatich.html


Harley-Davidson’s management rotation exposed him to manufacturing, strategic planning, project management, and, finally, international marketing at Harley’s European headquarters in England. While there, he helped launch the Buell brand, a racing-inspired motorcycle line, and became director of sales for the company’s distributor markets in Europe, the Middle East, and Africa.


That sounds at least hopeful. The guy has a degree in mechanical engineering in addition to his business credentials and according to his entry on HD's website, he's ridden since he was 8.

Scott
04-28-2015, 07:36 PM
I found this piece which has one tidbit of interesting info: http://www.mccormick.northwestern.edu/magazine/spring-2013/alumni-profile-matthew-levatich.html



That sounds at least hopeful. The guy has a degree in mechanical engineering in addition to his business credentials and according to his entry on HD's website, he's ridden since he was 8.

:thumb:

We can only speculate wildly, but if nothing else, I think Harley has a better CEO than they did 6 years ago.

With Buell Europe and MV experience, he certainly knows more than the standard Harley cruiser.

And he rides an XR1200 - the only decent Harley made in the past 40 years.

Hughlysses
04-28-2015, 08:29 PM
I missed the part about the XR1200- cool!

As to the EBR receivership, I'm envisioning this turning into a 3-way bidding war between Hero, Polaris, and Harley. How cool would that be? :lol:

Bagger
04-29-2015, 02:49 AM
Does anybody know anything about this Matt Levatich who will be taking over in a few days? I know that when Harley cut Buell loose, there was a split in Harley management and some were friends and fans of Erik, while others had issues with him. Does anyone know if Levatich was friend or foe?


Matt who have told many ppl when he was boss over Europe that his heard where at superbikes, would without reasonable doubt be against closing Buell. He also did all he could to "protect MV Agusta"

Scott
04-29-2015, 07:39 AM
Matt who have told many ppl when he was boss over Europe that his heard where at superbikes, would without reasonable doubt be against closing Buell. He also did all he could to "protect MV Agusta"


:thumb:

Good to hear. Even if he can't do anything with EBR now, I think that's at least good news for the future of Harley. And now that Wandell's gone, I'm finding a lot of my animosity toward them is also dissipating.

It should be April 30th in Australia in a few more hours. It will be interesting if that teased article sheds any real light or just adds more speculation. (I'm a little afraid it may be the latter)

Scott
04-29-2015, 08:06 AM
I missed the part about the XR1200- cool!

As to the EBR receivership, I'm envisioning this turning into a 3-way bidding war between Hero, Polaris, and Harley. How cool would that be? :lol:

:thumb:


That would be great (but I suspect it's overly optimistic). But all we really need is one of those (or anyone else we haven't even thought about yet . . . or Erik Buell with some financing) to be interested and it will be good news for the motorcycle community.

Of those three, I'd like to see Polaris most followed by Harley and Hero as a last resort (it's a little hard to believe that circumstances have me actually considering Harley one of the preferred options).

If Hero gets it, they're going to have to do and say a lot to win me over. I don't think they're necessarily 'bad guys', but this whole thing will leave a very bad taste in my mouth regarding their business practices and character unless they can explain themselves and come out of this fully supporting the brand and the interests of all involved.

noone1569
04-29-2015, 12:24 PM
Any owner's interested in what I have been told by a local wisconsin bankruptcy attorney in regards to preserving our interests and claims, feel free to shoot me a PM.

Hughlysses
04-29-2015, 03:18 PM
It should be April 30th in Australia in a few more hours. It will be interesting if that teased article sheds any real light or just adds more speculation. (I'm a little afraid it may be the latter)

OK, it's tomorrow in Australia, I don't see anything online about their Hero/EBR expose article yet; we may have to wait on someone to buy the magazine and post the info, assuming they printed the promised story.

Hughlysses
04-29-2015, 04:30 PM
Just when we thought the WSBK team was safe....

http://www.roadracingworld.com/news/hero-ebr-world-superbike-team-to-learn-fate-thursday/

Another Buell
04-29-2015, 06:33 PM
http://www.roadracingworld.com/news/hero-motocorp-ltd-trouble-in-india/
I thought the above article was very interesting. Seems to make lots of sense.

Hughlysses
04-29-2015, 06:46 PM
Wow- that's a bombshell.

Scott
04-29-2015, 07:06 PM
http://www.roadracingworld.com/news/hero-motocorp-ltd-trouble-in-india/
I thought the above article was very interesting. Seems to make lots of sense.

Wow! My assumption was that EBR was burning through cash and Hero simply said they weren't going to give them more. But if Hero actually OWED EBR cash and weren't paying, that's pretty dirty.

It seems like the dam may be on the verge of breaking soon and maybe we'll start to find out what happened.

If this is close to being true, I can imagine this backfiring big-time on Hero. Their stock is in freefall, if they turn out looking like dirty players, their future selling bikes in the US (and Europe and Australia etc.) could be very rough. AND if their plan really was to get EBR on the cheap, now that it's going to be offered on the open market (possibly because of a shrewd move by Erik), they might have competition, and they might not even get EBR in the end.

The next few weeks may be interesting.

Hughlysses
04-29-2015, 07:13 PM
Yea, if this is true I'd think EBR has legal recourse to sue the hell out of Hero too, maybe to the tune of a lot more money than that.

Scott
04-29-2015, 08:34 PM
Yea, if this is true I'd think EBR has legal recourse to sue the hell out of Hero too, maybe to the tune of a lot more money than that.

Yeah, but that could take years to sort out in court and every day the plant is closed means talent being lost and dealers and suppliers wanting to distance themselves from the mess.

Hopefully someone with deep pockets (other than Hero) can get something pushed through the receiver and courts and start putting the pieces back together before things are too far gone.

Hughlysses
04-29-2015, 08:38 PM
I think the ideal situation would be if Hero showed up, say August 1st at court with a cashier's check for $20M as their offer for EBR, and the judge said "Thank you. I'll take that as payment for the $20M you owe EBR. This receivership is hereby rescinded." :thumb:

Scott
04-29-2015, 09:02 PM
I think the ideal situation would be if Hero showed up, say August 1st at court with a cashier's check for $20M as their offer for EBR, and the judge said "Thank you. I'll take that as payment for the $20M you owe EBR. This receivership is hereby rescinded." :thumb:

:lol:

You may actually be on to something there. Suing Hero would take forever and it would be very tough to prove intent. But if Erik can show Hero wasn't paying the bills and that was the real problem, a judge may have some ability to limit their standing in any bidding process. If I were the judge, I think I'd say something like: "If you can't be trusted to pay your obligations, how can I have any faith you'll pay off your debts once you own the company outright?"

budgolf
04-29-2015, 09:28 PM
If this is any indication of how they conduct business. ..I doubt that their bikes would sell. Sure they'd sell a few....but people that treat their business partners this way treat their customers in worse ways. Too many names with awesome affordable. bikes and good customer service for a company that acts like this to sell anything in large numbers.

Bagger
04-30-2015, 10:15 AM
Perhaps it does not help a lot, but like EBR Europe is not under art.128, they are dooing good. Registered as an own comp, and is not in that way under EBR USA. Not that they now can sell anything, but stand loss from the hc in USA.

RV7PILOT
04-30-2015, 04:52 PM
Any owner's interested in what I have been told by a local wisconsin bankruptcy attorney in regards to preserving our interests and claims, feel free to shoot me a PM.

PM sent.

oddball
04-30-2015, 08:40 PM
I'm guessing any claims wouldn't apply to sales since the 15th?

Scott
05-01-2015, 07:14 AM
Perhaps it does not help a lot, but like EBR Europe is not under art.128, they are dooing good. Registered as an own comp, and is not in that way under EBR USA. Not that they now can sell anything, but stand loss from the hc in USA.

Interesting. There are probably a few different entities and those details could be meaningful before this is all done.

Hughlysses
05-01-2015, 07:56 AM
I notice that the Australian site is still active, so maybe the situation is similar there. I also read on Badweb (IIRC) that something like 200 1190RX's have been sold there.

http://www.erikbuellracing.com.au/

On a side note, this website seems a lot cooler than the US version.

Doug Porcaro
05-01-2015, 10:44 AM
I notice that the Australian site is still active, so maybe the situation is similar there. I also read on Badweb (IIRC) that something like 200 1190RX's have been sold there.

http://www.erikbuellracing.com.au/

On a side note, this website seems a lot cooler than the US version.

I agree! That's kinda funny.

Another Buell
05-01-2015, 11:02 AM
So if EBR is still opened n Australia, does that mean we will be able to get parts?

Scott
05-01-2015, 12:18 PM
So if EBR is still opened n Australia, does that mean we will be able to get parts?

This is one of the many things I know next to nothing about, but I'm willing to speculate (so please just take that for what it's worth). My understanding is that Parts Unlimited is the official parts distributor, and they should have at least some inventory of parts and they can probably get additional parts from suppliers. So in theory, we could get and sell parts now and continuing well into the future.

The problem is, with roughly 1000 bikes out there, there won't be a lot of demand and it won't be worth PU's effort to stock and sell parts and it won't be worth the supplier's effort to make those parts if EBR doesn't get back up and running soon.

While it's difficult to be patient (particularly in the information vacuum) I still remain nearly certain that EBR will continue once the legal wrangling is done. If no big players are interested, I think Erik will buy it, and his first priority (and the first thing bringing some cash in the door) will likely be to make sure parts are available for existing bikes.

Capt
05-02-2015, 07:34 PM
So if EBR is still opened n Australia, does that mean we will be able to get parts?

I had the exact same thought. I contacted a couple of the larger dealers in Australia just yesterday.

They responded promptly. Over 200 models have sold in Australia and the bike is very popular. Unfortunately their main distributor of EBR bikes and parts can no longer get parts himself so they are in the same boat that we are all in. Hope this helps.

DRZSimon
05-05-2015, 02:57 PM
I don't think the ebr.au website is anything to do with Erik...

Did a quick whois to see who owns the domain:



erikbuellracing.com.au registry whois
Updated 1 second ago - Refresh


Domain Name: erikbuellracing.com.au
Last Modified: 20-Nov-2014 02:49:25 UTC
Status: ok
Registrar Name: Web Address Registration

Registrant: URBAN MOTO IMPORTS PTY LTD
Registrant ID: ABN 16149193386
Eligibility Type: Company

Registrant Contact ID: R-005928631-SN
Registrant Contact Name: Joseph Elas
Registrant Contact Email: Visit whois.ausregistry.com.au for Web based WhoIs

Tech Contact ID: C-001126363-SN
Tech Contact Name: Joseph Elas
Tech Contact Email: Visit whois.ausregistry.com.au for Web based WhoIs

Name Server: ns1.auserver.com.au
Name Server IP: 101.0.101.106
Name Server: ns2.auserver.com.au
Name Server IP: 173.255.220.56
DNSSEC: unsigned

Bagger
05-06-2015, 02:27 AM
DRZSimon

That does only tell us that EBR have registered the name under a Australian comp. Normal way to do it. In many country you have to live in that country to be able to buy a domain ending on that country domain letters. And as you see, it's a .com.au, referring to the .com.

EBR have also trademark for it's name, so it is not legal to register a name like ericbuellracing or ebr without ebr blessing.

Hughlysses
05-08-2015, 09:27 AM
Meanwhile... "Hero MotoCorp to set up subsidiary in US":

http://www.business-standard.com/content/b2b-manufacturing-industry/hero-motocorp-to-set-up-subsidiary-in-us-115050800741_1.html

:mad:

In other news Hero's profits are down 14% for the forth quarter.

Bagger
05-08-2015, 01:13 PM
Gonna run a Charity Run in Norway this summer, and had contact with EBR Europe before this happened with EBR,,, BUT they are still standing up as sponsor, gadgets we can sell to get money in for Children with Cancer Foundation :) So EBR Europe is still running as normal, only problem, is getting more bikes...... appreciate that EBR would help this good case.. Company with a good heart!!!!

Scott
05-08-2015, 08:06 PM
Meanwhile... "Hero MotoCorp to set up subsidiary in US":

http://www.business-standard.com/content/b2b-manufacturing-industry/hero-motocorp-to-set-up-subsidiary-in-us-115050800741_1.html

:mad:

In other news Hero's profits are down 14% for the forth quarter.

I tell you what, I'm a huge motorcycle geek. I'm always checking out the latest news on the various motorcycle news websites. If it turns out that Hero really is the bad guy in this and they try to launch EBR technology that they stole and are trying to pass off as their own, I'm going to be on every online story about every Hero product launch and I'm going to be 'outing' them to anybody who will listen. I'll do my best to make sure their name is associated with 'soulless bastards' whenever motorcyclists see it (again, IF the facts show things played out as ugly as some are reporting).

EduardoChaves
05-09-2015, 11:14 AM
Hello guys! I'm new, and a lover of Buell motorcycles. Here in Brazil we had hoped to be able to buy the new EBR. The news is troubling, but i agree ipisis litteris with everything 'Scott' analyzes. I'm hoping that Erik can convince US investors to keep this 'icon'. I think the EBR is fully capable of being a sales success! I send some money to Erik if I had!:burnout:

Scott
05-09-2015, 04:59 PM
http://www.motoroids.com/news/ebr-closure-has-no-impact-on-the-hero-hx-250r-and-the-620cc-hastur/

"The world’s largest two-wheeler manufacturer by volumes hasn’t ruled out bailing out or buying out the remaining stake in EBR either."



Scott
05-09-2015, 05:08 PM
IF the reports of Hero still owing EBR $20 million are correct, it would almost compel Hero to buy EBR.

For example, imagine Hero passes and Erik buys the company for $2 million. Hero now owes Erik $20 million. In that case, Hero writes a $20 million check and gets nothing.

If the reported scenario is correct, Hero would be completely foolish to not bid at least $20 million. They still write a $20 million check one way or the other, but if they write the check to buy EBR, that $20 million pays off the debt, Hero doesn't have to pay themselves anything and for the $20 million that would have given them nothing in return, they now completely own a debt-free EBR.

That's assuming the reported scenario is accurate, but if it is, we can bet on Hero bidding a minimum $20 million.

Right?

Scott
05-09-2015, 05:13 PM
Hello guys! I'm new, and a lover of Buell motorcycles. Here in Brazil we had hoped to be able to buy the new EBR. The news is troubling, but i agree ipisis litteris with everything 'Scott' analyzes. I'm hoping that Erik can convince US investors to keep this 'icon'. I think the EBR is fully capable of being a sales success! I send some money to Erik if I had!:burnout:

Welcome!

Bagger
05-10-2015, 05:12 AM
Scott

I think you are in the right thoughts but missing an important piece. EBR have developed some new parts that Hero would like to use on they're bikes in India. Hero went from using Honda parts, to try to use parts made by they're own company's or daughter comps.
Hero would have problems trying to get back with Honda after the break up, and no more or less have to rely on they're own parts/technology.

Many says that Erik is not a good business man, but if we look at his plan, taking patents of his own technology (some shared with Hero), he would with his patents getting income from comp using his patented tech in years to come.

Some of the patents are shared with Hero, but still that mean that Hero have to pay EBR for using those patented parts.

Have no idea how much they have to pay for each part, but to make an example, let say that Hero must pay 100 dollar per motorcycle. That mean that if Hero makes/sell 200.000 bikes in a year, they have to pay 20 million to the owner of the patent. Hero talk about producing 10 million bikes a year, but I doubt all of the would use parts/tech patented by EBR. EBR have told that they where working on 13 new modells for Hero, my guess then is that is would be more then half of the selling numbers, so lets say 5 million bikes a year is affected with the patented parts. To get to the 20 million dollar (if that is the gold.....) that would be as low as 4 dollar a bike to use that patented tech/parts

The idea from Erik is good, EBR will then earn a lot of money from the patented tech/parts, and can with that money build up EBR to new heights.

About selling EBR, as told over, the holder of an patent will always get paid if tech/part being used. This makes EBR more interesting for investors then just the bikes EBR produce it self. To make an example, if Polaris did make an offer of 100 million for EBR, and in this example, let say they got it for that amount, Hero who no longer have any deal with Honda would be forced to bye rights to use patented tech/parts from Polaris, at least until they could come up with new tech/parts by there self, a process that will take years.

As know how many bikes Hero produces every year, it would not take long before the new owner would have earned back the cost of buying EBR.
But this do not say anything about EBR bikes, the new owner could if they want, just close down EBR, and just use the investing for the patent ownership.

As we all can see is the stock for Hero going more and more down, the reason is ( I think) clear, the big holders know that the patents could be so expensive for Hero, and that Hero possibly must except new patent owner. Have been told (no name for now, sorry) that EBR and (not letting any name in here ether yet) is working on an way to make it impossible/nonlegal for Hero to buy out EBR. (Something about being the main course of the problem, CAN make it nonlegal to takeover all shares).

IF this is right, that if there is a law that can be used to stop a company not paying for products and services provided, ending up under "administration" , to use that method to force the comp out of businesses, and afterwards buying out the pieces left, and use tech/parts patented, I do understand the stock fall at Hero more and more. The stock fall is not worth just a couple of millions, that's huge.

And IF they can stop Hero taking over EBR, besides known american motorcycle comps, also investors would be interested in taking over EBR. And HERE is the biggest chances for Erik him self. If he get a big investor group in the back, taking over EBR, he would then more easy be able to make arrangements where he still can produce EBR motorcycles, where the investor group will take out they're earnings selling using rights of patents to Hero...This would be ( I think) more or less the only way for Erik to be a part of EBR under new owner. And since the calculated need for this tech/parts is big at Hero, I guess many investor groups would be interested, and that Erik is negotiating with a couple to get the best deal, a dea where he is a part.

Scott
05-10-2015, 07:48 AM
Scott

I think you are in the right thoughts but missing an important piece. EBR have developed some new parts that Hero would like to use on they're bikes in India. Hero went from using Honda parts, to try to use parts made by they're own company's or daughter comps.
Hero would have problems trying to get back with Honda after the break up, and no more or less have to rely on they're own parts/technology.

Many says that Erik is not a good business man, but if we look at his plan, taking patents of his own technology (some shared with Hero), he would with his patents getting income from comp using his patented tech in years to come.

Some of the patents are shared with Hero, but still that mean that Hero have to pay EBR for using those patented parts.

Have no idea how much they have to pay for each part, but to make an example, let say that Hero must pay 100 dollar per motorcycle. That mean that if Hero makes/sell 200.000 bikes in a year, they have to pay 20 million to the owner of the patent. Hero talk about producing 10 million bikes a year, but I doubt all of the would use parts/tech patented by EBR. EBR have told that they where working on 13 new modells for Hero, my guess then is that is would be more then half of the selling numbers, so lets say 5 million bikes a year is affected with the patented parts. To get to the 20 million dollar (if that is the gold.....) that would be as low as 4 dollar a bike to use that patented tech/parts

The idea from Erik is good, EBR will then earn a lot of money from the patented tech/parts, and can with that money build up EBR to new heights.

About selling EBR, as told over, the holder of an patent will always get paid if tech/part being used. This makes EBR more interesting for investors then just the bikes EBR produce it self. To make an example, if Polaris did make an offer of 100 million for EBR, and in this example, let say they got it for that amount, Hero who no longer have any deal with Honda would be forced to bye rights to use patented tech/parts from Polaris, at least until they could come up with new tech/parts by there self, a process that will take years.

As know how many bikes Hero produces every year, it would not take long before the new owner would have earned back the cost of buying EBR.
But this do not say anything about EBR bikes, the new owner could if they want, just close down EBR, and just use the investing for the patent ownership.

As we all can see is the stock for Hero going more and more down, the reason is ( I think) clear, the big holders know that the patents could be so expensive for Hero, and that Hero possibly must except new patent owner. Have been told (no name for now, sorry) that EBR and (not letting any name in here ether yet) is working on an way to make it impossible/nonlegal for Hero to buy out EBR. (Something about being the main course of the problem, CAN make it nonlegal to takeover all shares).

IF this is right, that if there is a law that can be used to stop a company not paying for products and services provided, ending up under "administration" , to use that method to force the comp out of businesses, and afterwards buying out the pieces left, and use tech/parts patented, I do understand the stock fall at Hero more and more. The stock fall is not worth just a couple of millions, that's huge.

And IF they can stop Hero taking over EBR, besides known american motorcycle comps, also investors would be interested in taking over EBR. And HERE is the biggest chances for Erik him self. If he get a big investor group in the back, taking over EBR, he would then more easy be able to make arrangements where he still can produce EBR motorcycles, where the investor group will take out they're earnings selling using rights of patents to Hero...This would be ( I think) more or less the only way for Erik to be a part of EBR under new owner. And since the calculated need for this tech/parts is big at Hero, I guess many investor groups would be interested, and that Erik is negotiating with a couple to get the best deal, a dea where he is a part.

These are all great points, but I think there are some things we don't know and a lot of other fine details. I assume you're talking about patents for Hero bikes (250R, Hastur, etc.) and my comments will focus on those Hero elements (rather than the actual EBR bikes and their related technologies).

I think one of the first big unknowns is "How much design work was actually patented?" And I suspect most design work wasn't patented. For example, the frame for the Hastur probably wasn't patented. It's not unique enough to be patented, but the size, shape, composition etc. is a specific design. So we need to talk in terms of ownership not just of patents, but also designs.

But now we don't know who owns those patents and designs. If EBR owns all the patents and designs with Hero 'licensing' (basically renting) those patents and designs then what you're saying is very relevant, but if EBR sold (rather than licensed) those patents and designs to Hero, then Hero owns them, and if Hero owns them, they would have been sold for a one-time fee rather than an ongoing fee per unit.

So now let's consider 3 scenarios.

1. Hero is licensing designs and patents from EBR - In this case, as you state, Hero will have a large future financial obligation to EBR and, therefore, Hero will probably do everything they can to own EBR.

2. Hero bought the designs and patents from EBR but didn't pay for them. In this case, even though Hero bought the designs and patents, ownership will be in dispute because they haven't been paid for. In this scenario, as with the first, Hero would have a large motivation to bid to own EBR so they will own the designs and patents they need. But depending on the contracts, obligations and court claims, Hero could also pay their obligation to either the receiver or new entity and at that point they would probably fully own the patents and designs.

3. Hero bought and paid for the designs and patents from EBR and, despite the reports, fully paid for them. In this case, Hero can, if they choose, easily walk away. They won't have the EBR bikes, dealer network, engineering services etc., but they'd have everything they need to move forward with their bikes.

So while ownership of designs and patents will indeed be a key aspect of all of this, I think we can only speculate regarding who actually owns those designs and patents at this moment.

Hughlysses
05-10-2015, 08:06 AM
I've periodically searched for patents associated with EBR and/or Hero since EBR started. Here are a few I've found:

Patents developed by people at EBR and assigned to Hero:

Front Wheel for a scooter- https://www.google.com/patents/USD676369?dq=hero+motocorp&hl=en&sa=X&ei=7VRPVf70OJTcoASx44DIAw&ved=0CB0Q6AEwAA
Rear Wheel for a scooter- https://www.google.com/patents/USD670631?dq=hero+motocorp&hl=en&sa=X&ei=7VRPVf70OJTcoASx44DIAw&ved=0CCQQ6AEwAQ
Mirrors for a scooter- https://www.google.com/patents/USD667765?dq=hero+motocorp&hl=en&sa=X&ei=7VRPVf70OJTcoASx44DIAw&ved=0CCsQ6AEwAg
Scooter frame with integrated fuel tank- https://www.google.com/patents/US8919483?dq=hero+motocorp&hl=en&sa=X&ei=7VRPVf70OJTcoASx44DIAw&ved=0CDkQ6AEwBA
Suspension/drive for a scooter- https://www.google.com/patents/US8950539?dq=ininventor:%22Erik+Buell%22&hl=en&sa=X&ei=dVZPVYSSKpKsogT4ioHACg&ved=0CDMQ6AEwAw
Protective covering for a scooter- http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO2&Sect2=HITOFF&p=1&u=%2Fnetahtml%2FPTO%2Fsearch-bool.html&r=12&f=G&l=50&co1=AND&d=PTXT&s1=hero.ASNM.&OS=AN/hero&RS=AN/hero (for some reason this one doesn't show in google patents)

Patents assigned to people working at EBR (not assigned to EBR):
Hybrid motorcycle- https://www.google.com/patents/US20130168171?dq=hero+motocorp&hl=en&sa=X&ei=7VRPVf70OJTcoASx44DIAw&ved=0CF4Q6AEwCQ

Patent applications by EBR (patents not yet assigned):
Airbox- https://www.google.com/patents/WO2015057954A1?cl=en&dq=inassignee:Erik+Buell+Racing,+Llc&ei=wFZPVZwl0sSiBN2wgaAO
Motorcycle exhaust- https://www.google.com/patents/WO2015057951A1?cl=en&dq=inassignee:%22Erik+Buell+Racing,+Llc%22&ei=F1dPVeeFIIHaoATGyYFw
Multi-stage swirl induction- https://www.google.com/patents/WO2015057952A1?cl=en&dq=inassignee:%22Erik+Buell+Racing,+Llc%22&ei=F1dPVeeFIIHaoATGyYFw

So it looks like EBR doesn't currently hold any patents. OTOH- Erik and several others hold the patent for hybrid motorcycles independently of EBR, which would be good if EBR completely fails or is bought by Hero.

Bagger
05-10-2015, 09:16 AM
Hughlysses

Guess you see it different from me then, I have found several where both Hero as EBR stands as holder, and also patents in Europe. Agree with the google thing, they miss many.
One example is
http://worldwide.espacenet.com/publicationDetails/biblio?FT=D&date=20150423&DB=EPODOC&locale=en_EP&CC=WO&NR=2015057954A1&KC=A1&ND=5

Or do I look at it with EBR glasses?

Hughlysses
05-10-2015, 09:36 AM
Bagger- that seems to be a patent application (patent not yet granted) for the same item as the one I described as "airbox" above.

I was just searching the US patent database; if you found other patents and/or applications in Europe, I'd love to see them.

Dutch
05-13-2015, 09:12 PM
I added some information to the Hero motor corp Wiki page time line lol



2014—Hero invests $25 million into American motorcycle manufacturer EBR(Erik Buell Racing)
2015—Hero fails to meet promises of funding to EBR, forcing EBR into receivership and forever damaging the brand's appearance to consumers.

Hughlysses
05-14-2015, 04:29 AM
Nice. Of course, if the "insiders" are correct, Hero failed to pay for contracted work. The funding wasn't just "promised".

Scott
05-14-2015, 07:56 AM
I added some information to the Hero motor corp Wiki page time line lol



2014—Hero invests $25 million into American motorcycle manufacturer EBR(Erik Buell Racing)
2015—Hero fails to meet promises of funding to EBR, forcing EBR into receivership and forever damaging the brand's appearance to consumers.



:thumb:

I find myself wondering if Hero is really clueless enough about western culture - particularly when it comes to the passion and emotion associated with motorcycles - to think they'll be able to be screw over Erik Buell and have no problems selling motorcycles in the US, Europe, Australia etc.

As it is, Indian products have a poor reputation in the US, and the difference between having Erik Buell as a friend or foe (and people who respect Erik Buell as friends or foes) in that endeavor is the difference between climbing a hill or climbing a mountain.

Bagger
05-15-2015, 04:19 AM
Splitlash team goes for EBR
http://www.iomtt.com/News/2015/May/14/Miller-Kennaugh-Splitlath-EBR.aspx

Hughlysses
05-15-2015, 04:25 PM
^ Already posted in the racing thread a couple of days ago but we need to spread all the good news about EBR we can, so good re-post!

Meanwhile...

Hero's Q4 financial report has been posted:


http://www.heromotocorp.com/en-in/uploads/Annual_Reports/quarterly_pdf/20150513105300-quarterly-pdf-386.pdf


Perhaps there's a business guru among us who might find something of interest in it. EBR's closure is mentioned in footnote 9.

Hughlysses
05-24-2015, 08:58 AM
I spent a few minutes poking around on linkedin.com this morning; I've followed EBR there for a few years. I noticed one thing of interest about their employees- a lot of what appear to be mid-level employees have found or are actively looking for other jobs, as I'm sure the production line folks are. But quite a few of the upper level guys still list their employer as EBR and don't have anything on their profiles to suggest they are looking for new employment.

That seems to at least hint they expect to resume their employment with EBR at some point in the future. Maybe they know something we don't?

Classax
05-24-2015, 06:59 PM
or the same guy updating the EBR website is also in charge of updating their linked ins....

Hughlysses
05-30-2015, 06:32 AM
Apparently Hero isn't quite as ready to take on all design work in-house as they stated immediately after the EBR closure announcement:

http://indianautosblog.com/2015/05/hero-hx250r-launch-delayed-180001

Scott
05-30-2015, 09:49 AM
Apparently Hero isn't quite as ready to take on all design work in-house as they stated immediately after the EBR closure announcement:

http://indianautosblog.com/2015/05/hero-hx250r-launch-delayed-180001

Interesting. If nothing else, I think it hints that Hero didn't anticipate the closing. Which fits what I've been speculating - that Hero expected Erik to sell after they put enough pressure on the company but Erik did an end-around by declaring Chapter 128 instead of simply selling.

Hughlysses
06-01-2015, 01:58 PM
A little more info on the Hero HX250R delay:

http://www.autocarpro.in/news-national/ebr-bankrup tcy-delays-hero-motocorp-hx250r-launch-8502 (http://www.autocarpro.in/news-national/ebr-bankruptcy-delays-hero-motocorp-hx250r-launch-8502)



“Hero MotoCorp is always on a lookout for partners on the R&D and technical assessment front. It is understood that the company is looking at external help to complete the pending crucial project (HX250R), this may take some time."

I wonder how much luck Hero will have in finding external help given recent events. I would imagine anyone qualified to help would know of their treatment of EBR and demand full payment up front.

oddball
06-01-2015, 03:56 PM
I don't have any interest in Hero products. I might have looked to see what erik helped with but if i wanted a 250/300 there are plenty of them from the big boys.

Hughlysses
06-01-2015, 05:53 PM
There's a letter "from" the editor in July's issue of Cycle World about the EBR closure. It includes some VERY positive comments by Erik about the future of EBR.

Scott
06-02-2015, 08:21 AM
There's a letter "from" the editor in July's issue of Cycle World about the EBR closure. It includes some VERY positive comments by Erik about the future of EBR.

:thumb:

I read that a couple days ago. If I remember correctly, it said something like "there are multiple interested parties" which is what I have hoped and expected, but I've been frustrated nobody had said it until then. Since the primary responsibility of the receiver at this moment should be to preserve value. The thing that will help preserve value more than anything right now is for dealers and owners to know that there are people and/or entities with the interest and resources to continue EBR as a motorcycle manufacturer.

I'd like to see the receiver say something sooner rather than later regarding the status and the likelihood that someone will continue making EBR motorcycles (which I suspect is extremely high).

Honestly, I have to wonder if the lack of information is intentional to help clear out inventory. If dealers are nervous that this is the end, they'll slash prices to clear bikes off their floors and then the new company can start relatively fresh without worrying about a lot of inventory collecting dust while they're getting up and running and trying to move new bikes.

But I think that's a double edged sword because the bigger the hit dealers take on existing inventory, the less likely they'll be to get back on board.

But that's also where someone like Polaris or Harley (or Yamaha or Suzuki or BRP etc.) could get more value out of the company than Hero. Polaris and Harley already have well-established dealer networks. Hero wants a dealer network but has quite possibly burnt down the one they were beginning to build.

So for Hero (or a stand-alone EBR) the rapidly disintegrating dealer network is one of the biggest assets of the existing EBR, but for a motorcycle maker who already has an established US presence, the EBR dealer network doesn't mean much.

Just something to think about.

Hughlysses
06-02-2015, 11:27 AM
Here are some of the choice quotes I pulled from the article:


quote:

We've been working on the mainstream stuff. I can't talk about what was
coming, but I will say some of it is much different than anybody would have
expected. Stuff that is 18 months away from full-volume production that people
would go "Holy s--t! EBR did that?!" It was all much higher volume and lower
price.




In response to what's going on with selling EBR:

quote:

Buell said there was quite a bit of interest, and those people were in touch
with the law firm in charge of the sale.





quote:

Where the business is at this time is infinitely better than where it was
with the closing of Buell.





quote:

We could start production again in a day.

Scott
06-02-2015, 01:55 PM
:thumb:

Carbonbolt
06-04-2015, 03:56 PM
Here are some of the choice quotes I pulled from the article:

quote:

We could start production again in a day.




is it possible to link the origin of this article? i couldnt find it.

thx, Christian.

Hughlysses
06-04-2015, 07:24 PM
is it possible to link the origin of this article? i couldnt find it.

thx, Christian.

It's not on line as far as I know. Check the current (July) edition of Cycle World magazine. The quotes are from the "letter from the Editor" column near the front of the magazine.

Bagger
06-09-2015, 01:28 AM
Could not find the source they are using, but after searching for EBR Erik Buell, changing settings to last 24 hours, I came into some russian motor news sites, and a normal news site, and with google translate (don't understand russian) they are telling Polaris would buy EBR.

It's a good news if it is true, but stange that it should come from Russia before any american site picked it up..........
So perhaps just a hope from them, but still many sites are now talking about it,,,,so use google translate,,

Scott
06-09-2015, 07:56 AM
Could not find the source they are using, but after searching for EBR Erik Buell, changing settings to last 24 hours, I came into some russian motor news sites, and a normal news site, and with google translate (don't understand russian) they are telling Polaris would buy EBR.

It's a good news if it is true, but stange that it should come from Russia before any american site picked it up..........
So perhaps just a hope from them, but still many sites are now talking about it,,,,so use google translate,,

Interesting. I suspect it's just based speculation rather than real info., but I think Polaris would be my preference at this point, so hopefully it's more than just speculation.

Do you have a link?

Scott
06-09-2015, 08:05 AM
Found this and had to translate it paragraph by paragraph. They piece together things we know and then say that leads 'experts' to believe Polaris will buy EBR. Unfortunately, that doesn't sound like "We heard from X that Polaris is in talks to buy EBR." Sounds like they're just saying it would fit. And I agree, but hoping for something more than that.

http://www.motonews.ru/news.moto?id=11781


American manufacturer , slowly becoming a giant , Polaris, has plans for the acquisition of Erik Buell Racing (EBR), which produces the same name racing motorcycles .
Recently, Polaris acquired business elektromototsikl at Brammo, a company that has learned to develop good transmission , but not very well learned elektrobayka sell , then there is information that displays on the Polaris race elektromototsikl Isle of Man TT its brand Victory.
In addition, the company recently Victory and Roland Sands announced a joint project of 156 , the result of which must take part in the race Pikes Peak International Hill Climb this year.
All this makes experts assume that the acquisition of EBR is not far off .At the EBR, which once belonged to Harley-Davidson, and is now facing serious financial difficulties , there are many good and valuable engineering developments , which could well serve for the benefit of Polaris, given a new actively developing elektronapravlenie company.

Moose
06-09-2015, 10:29 AM
Would love for Polaris to buy EBR. Crossing my fingers.

Hughlysses
06-09-2015, 10:39 AM
A source on Badweather Bikers (who should know what he's talking about) posted this morning that he is expecting some "very interesting" news about EBR soon.

Fingers crossed.

Scott
06-10-2015, 03:28 AM
I find the lack of comment from Polaris interesting.

Imagine a hypothetical in which you're Polaris management, and you have zero interest in buying EBR.

You would obviously know these rumors are out there and becoming more and more talked about in the motorcycle enthusiast community. Unlike Hero, you understand the US motorcycle community and their knowledge of and interest in Erik Buell.

If I were in that position as Polaris management, the last thing I would want is to allow these rumors to spread only to ultimately let down the motorcycle community and (more importantly) my shareholders.

In that scenerio, I would draft a simple statement such as: "We at Polaris have nothing but admiration and respect for Erik Buell. However an aquisition such as that wouldn't fit our current strategies. We wish Mr. Buell and all the employees of EBR good fortune in finding some funding to get back up and running."

Under the scenario in which Polaris has zero interest, I think such a statement would be a logical step to prevent disappointment and bad PR when people find out the rumors were false.

Also, the more I think about it, even if Polaris has little or no interest in sport-bikes, given the current situation they need to seriously think about buying EBR. After a long stretch of Harley being the only game in town, Polaris is establishing themselves as a serious contender to be the technologically advanced US motorcycle manufacturer. EBR would help them solidify that. But perhaps more importantly, preventing EBR from getting back up and running under a different investor prevents a major challenger to their title as the up-and-coming innovative American motorcycle manufacturer. That alone may be worth the relatively small investment it would take to come out of this owning EBR and the future of American motorcycles.

Scott
06-10-2015, 05:27 AM
On that last point, it's interesting to think about the context of "Project 156". That project clearly started before the EBR closing. Was it a direct response to EBR?

Consider Polaris has been going head-to-head fairly directly and successfully against Harley. Did somebody at Polaris say: "Hey guys, while we're busy drawing up battle lines against Harley, EBR is running around and completely flanking us on the sport-bike side."

Is it just coincidence that what Roland Sands is doing seems similar to how Erik Buell got started with Harley - modifying an existing engine radically different chassis to create a sport-bike? That may have been an attempt to follow in the footsteps of Erik Buell and create a bike that falls in between a cruiser and sportbike to begin the slow methodical process of eventually having a true sport bike.

If that was their intention and they did that in response to EBR, it would be interesting to consider their potential interest if EBR itself can now be either be theirs or someone else's.

oddball
06-10-2015, 01:27 PM
Interesting thoughts. The plotting and politics of the possible Hero actions/motives are distasteful. The hypothetical of Victory following EB's playbook to engage him in the sporting market sounds possible. The dark thought that comes to me is with your last part.

"it would be interesting to consider their potential interest if EBR itself can now be either be theirs or someone else's."

It could be viewed as a windfall to their efforts if acquired with the intent to use designs of his to improve their effort. Or, it could turn bad if the intent becomes merely to deny any possible competitor buying the IP and making them disappear.

Hughlysses
06-10-2015, 01:42 PM
There's an "EBR Employees" Facebook page that they're using to share tips & leads for finding jobs. Someone posted a few weeks ago that Polaris was looking for Engineers. It's possible at least some key EBR people are already working for Victory. If they can get the IP and the people that developed it, that would be pretty attractive to them.

Scott
06-20-2015, 07:13 AM
Has anybody been hearing any serious rumors anywhere? I realize that it's likely to be another month before the process can even start and any companies who may be seriously considering bidding won't want to publicly state that (and increase the perceived value and, therefore, increase the price they'll have to pay).

But while my rational side realizes that, my less rational side can't help going a little crazy waiting to hear some news.

So any vague whispers or hints from any sources?

oddball
06-20-2015, 08:54 PM
Where's TMZ when you need them? :)

Hughlysses
06-21-2015, 05:25 AM
So any vague whispers or hints from any sources?

Earlier this month over on Badweb, a former Buell employee, long-time Buell insider, and personal friend of Erik's dropped a hint that he's expecting a very interesting announcement soon. That's the closest thing to anything official I've seen.

It has been confirmed by an EBR dealer that they have received NO correspondence from EBR or the receiver, not even a letter like owners received.

Scott
06-21-2015, 06:13 AM
Earlier this month over on Badweb, a former Buell employee, long-time Buell insider, and personal friend of Erik's dropped a hint that he's expecting a very interesting announcement soon. That's the closest thing to anything official I've seen.

It has been confirmed by an EBR dealer that they have received NO correspondence from EBR or the receiver, not even a letter like owners received.

Thanks!

I did notice this exchange on Facebook from June 16:



Chris Schreiber (https://www.facebook.com/chris.schreiber.96?fref=ufi) It is great to see Pat and his EBR wining races but, I would love to see the next post say " Hey we are happy to announce that our dealers can start selling their inventory again and order more EBRs to sell! Sitting with bikes on the floor not able to sell is killing me. I do not mean my company I mean I find it personally painfull

EBR (https://www.facebook.com/ErikBuellRacing) Working on making that post happen. It is painful for us too!!!!!!!




It may not offer any real information, but it does continue the general feeling that something is happening behind the scenes and there is hope.

Carbonbolt
06-24-2015, 04:55 PM
So any vague whispers or hints from any sources?

until July something had to happen. I´ve heard the 22. is deadline. After that date they can start selling property, building etc.
i´m not sure if that is correct, but a dealer whispered...
I hope the best...

Hughlysses
06-24-2015, 07:30 PM
until July something had to happen. I´ve heard the 22. is deadline. After that date they can start selling property, building etc.
i´m not sure if that is correct, but a dealer whispered...
I hope the best...

It seems likely things will happen after July 22, since that was the date listed by which all claims must be filed in the letters sent to EBR motorcycle owners.

My understanding is the point in a receivership is to make every effort to sell the company as an intact entity. Only if that fails can the buildings, hardware, intellectual property, etc. be sold separately.

Scott
06-25-2015, 10:06 AM
until July something had to happen. I´ve heard the 22. is deadline. After that date they can start selling property, building etc.
i´m not sure if that is correct, but a dealer whispered...
I hope the best...


It seems likely things will happen after July 22, since that was the date listed by which all claims must be filed in the letters sent to EBR motorcycle owners.

My understanding is the point in a receivership is to make every effort to sell the company as an intact entity. Only if that fails can the buildings, hardware, intellectual property, etc. be sold separately.

:thumb: Hopefully there are some really cool things happening behind the scenes but nobody can say anything until it all plays out. I guess even after that date, it may take some time before we get real answers, but it's almost certain nothing can be done prior to that date since they need to collect everything before anybody can place the first bid.

I'll just try to be patient for a few more weeks.

Classax
06-25-2015, 03:08 PM
I doubt we will get an announcement before the start of Q4. The purpose of the 128 is stop creditors from taking action on the debt while company restructures a plan to pay it off over time. In order to restructure you'd have to know what the debt is. They know what their debt from suppliers and dealers are because they would have outstanding accounts payable and a mountain of invoices. What they wouldn't know is what claims were outstanding for warranty work by owners who have had to make repairs and foot warranty work out of pocket. They deadline to file that is July 22, 2015. Figure 30 or so days to collect and understand the numbers and puts you into the end of Q3, then you have to have the court and buyer(s){if there are any} approve it, offer settlements, get those approved and finalize any transactions. I'll be pleasantly shocked if we here anything at all before October - November. I'm hopeful that they have a NON India based buyer for the whole shabang lined up who is passionate about the bikes and want to see them continuing to be made along with a reboot of the brand but I'd settle for a check and the contacts to all the parts suppliers.

Scott
06-25-2015, 08:35 PM
I doubt we will get an announcement before the start of Q4. The purpose of the 128 is stop creditors from taking action on the debt while company restructures a plan to pay it off over time. In order to restructure you'd have to know what the debt is. They know what their debt from suppliers and dealers are because they would have outstanding accounts payable and a mountain of invoices. What they wouldn't know is what claims were outstanding for warranty work by owners who have had to make repairs and foot warranty work out of pocket. They deadline to file that is July 22, 2015. Figure 30 or so days to collect and understand the numbers and puts you into the end of Q3, then you have to have the court and buyer(s){if there are any} approve it, offer settlements, get those approved and finalize any transactions. I'll be pleasantly shocked if we here anything at all before October - November. I'm hopeful that they have a NON India based buyer for the whole shabang lined up who is passionate about the bikes and want to see them continuing to be made along with a reboot of the brand but I'd settle for a check and the contacts to all the parts suppliers.

Those are all great points, but couldn't a lot of things be happening concurrently? For example, they don't have to wait until July 22 to start adding things up and summarizing. They probably have 99% of what they need right now. They need to provide the 90 days by law, and they may have claims trickling in up to that deadline, but I would imagine by now they have an idea of most of the claims they will get - and the ones that come in over the next month can simply be added.

And any serious potential buyers probably already have a pretty good sense of the big picture. A few more or less claims from owners than expected won't change that big picture much.

So I can imagine a preliminary draft summary already exists and any new information can be added to that summary and then a final report could be released to interested parties very shortly after July 22.

And then (assuming there are already at least 2 seriously interested parties), bidding could start shortly after that. If there is a concern that there aren't enough interested parties to insure the debt will be covered, that could slow things down because they will have to get some people interested, but I suspect there already are more than one interested parties who would be willing to pay the debt plus a dollar and restart operations in some form.

As long as the receiver and judge know that debt plus a dollar will be put up by someone, there wouldn't be any need to seek alternate buyers. The only situation in which effort would need to be put into finding more buyers would be if nobody was willing to cover the debt as part of their bid.

But that's just speculation (combined with some hopeful, wishful thinking) and I'm not a lawyer and none of us know how real the interest from potential buyers is.

Classax
06-26-2015, 04:56 AM
We will see soon enough.

Plotter
07-12-2015, 03:40 PM
I've heard that dealers are going into litigation with EBR right now as well, trying to get back some of the losses from fire sales and loss of customer base...

noone1569
07-13-2015, 08:42 AM
I've heard that dealers are going into litigation with EBR right now as well, trying to get back some of the losses from fire sales and loss of customer base...

WI128 is protection against that. Plus, at this time, there is no EBR. Dealers that have issues like that need to go through the receivership process just as we do as owners.

Classax
07-13-2015, 10:05 AM
I've heard that dealers are going into litigation with EBR right now as well, trying to get back some of the losses from fire sales and loss of customer base...

Dealers are entirely in control of what the bikes sell for. There don't have to be firesale prices, but dealers want to move the inventory so they are doing what THEY feel they need to in order to get that done. Its like the guys who are buying bikes at that those prices and then complaining about warranty problems. It's voluntary loss. I don't see a case there. They could have claimed the inventory tax as a result of not being able to sell the bikes due to closure but not the loss for selling it below MSRP. But what do I know.

ReadyXB
07-13-2015, 11:22 AM
^ At the risk of sounding unsympathetic, I agree. I have yet to hear a legal argument regarding any promise made by EBR to dealers that they would be guaranteed to sell their inventory at a minimum of price X by date Y.

Plotter
07-13-2015, 12:17 PM
I understand both arguments. AF1 is adamant about not lowering prices because they will get the money back and send the bikes back. I was just passing along what some of the dealers have been telling me while I was trying to purchase a bike.

I am hopeful that I won't have warranty issues, but I am also well aware, that if I do, I might be on my own. I feel bad for the guys that paid full price that might not get warranty coverage.

Scott
07-13-2015, 01:28 PM
My hope (and to some degree, expectation) is that whoever buys them will work with dealers to recover losses and get things back on good terms quickly. The dealer network is one of the most valuable things EBR has. They will, inevitably, lose some of those dealers.

But if the best and most enthusiastic stick it out, there will be a huge mutual benefit to EBR and dealers if they can continue to work together.

Classax
07-13-2015, 01:58 PM
I hate to say it but its going to be a very TALL order to get dealers to stay in the game going forward. The bikes are undervalued brand new, the previous ownership support was not good, and the bikes have now been sitting for over a year, and most of the knowledgeable staff on how they work is GONE. There are several repair shops in my local who will not as "we refuse to" even service them. The best case is the new buyer already has a dealer network and if a few dealers which to stay on they can, and the rebranded machines get moved to the new stores with a full reboot of version 2.0 and a few new models for 2016.
There were a lot of bridges irrevocably damaged if not burned by this. I absolutely adore the bike but even I feel like I got burned in the whole deal. Sometimes that's the price you pay to play though, c'est la guerre.

ReadyXB
07-13-2015, 04:13 PM
My hope (and to some degree, expectation) is that whoever buys them will work with dealers to recover losses and get things back on good terms quickly. The dealer network is one of the most valuable things EBR has. They will, inevitably, lose some of those dealers.

But if the best and most enthusiastic stick it out, there will be a huge mutual benefit to EBR and dealers if they can continue to work together.
Erik's first facebook post made his intentions clear in this area, and I think it's worth the occasional reminder to dealers and owners:

"...I want you to know that looking ahead my focus is 100% on helping the receiver best maximize the value from EBR to benefit all, and I will make every possible effort to get the new organization to where it can support the dealers and customers first, and then help find investment to get back to full throttle."

I believe Erik knew what the main concern of dealers and customers would be, and addressed that in the clearest way that he could/is allowed.

Scott
07-14-2015, 07:21 AM
Well one week until the auction and then two days after that to make it official with the judge. But I expect the auction will be open to the public (if anybody knows different, please let us know what you've heard), so I'd expect a few journalists reporting. So we should at least have some idea by the afternoon of the 21st who was bidding and there's a good chance we'll know who the high bidder was (though still to be officially approved).

It's really weird to think how everything will hinge on the events of July 21, 2015. By next week, we could find out that all hope is lost, or we could be looking forward to a bright new future. We've had a lot of strange events in the history of Buell and EBR, but in the past, the biggest events (the two closures) have blind-sided us. This if the first time we've been able to anticipate and watch the train coming toward us in slow motion.

Plotter
07-14-2015, 09:52 AM
It is very exciting, and depending on who is bidding, there will be more or less coverage. Has there been any new hints or whispers in the news as to who is currently the bidder?

Hughlysses
07-14-2015, 12:38 PM
It is very exciting, and depending on who is bidding, there will be more or less coverage. Has there been any new hints or whispers in the news as to who is currently the bidder?

The only hint that's been dropped was that one moto-journalist wrote an article stating he thought Polaris would buy them (link to article is posted the EBR sale thread). In an interview with the head design guy at Polaris last week, he said they really are definitely not planning to buy EBR (also linked in thread).

I sort of thought somebody would have dropped some hints about who was interested by now.

Hughlysses
07-14-2015, 01:26 PM
This got me thinking about the next question: If EBR is sold intact to an enthusiastic buyer on July 23, what happens next?

I'd think the first thing they have to do is get their dealer network going again. These guys have been burned pretty badly by the closure so that's going to be a hard sell. I guess if the new buyer agrees to pick up warranties on existing bikes and continues or increases the factory sales incentives that would help a lot, especially if it's a big-name buyer with a good reputation.

Contrary to what EBR posted on their Facebook page a while back, I think it would take them more than a day to get back into production. According to the EBR sale documents, they have some number of partially completed bikes sitting in the factory and parts to make more. If they can re-hire production workers, they can at least get those bikes finished. How many bikes? I don't have a clue.

The next thing will be for EBR to re-establish their contracts with their suppliers- all the companies that provided the parts to make EBR motorcycles. I'd guess those contracts have been broken so settlements will have to be paid out of the EBR sale. These companies, just like the dealers, got burned and may or may not want to continue doing business with EBR. They'll probably have to find new suppliers for some components. Again, I'd think the reputation of the new buyer will be a huge factor.

Then what? Well, it'll be the forth quarter of 2015 by then. Did EBR have any updates ready for 2016 models? I guess they could keep manufacturing the current models with minor or no updates (just changing the year designation) until they can get more models ready to build. How much time and effort (and cubic dollars) will it take to complete the designs for more bike models Erik said EBR had in development?

It's going to be an interesting next few months...

PS- Interesting factoid: On LinkedIn, 26 people still list their employer as EBR. A lot of these people are key designers; I'm guessing most of these folks are hanging around to see what happens with the sale. HOPEFULLY the new owner will pick these people up and any production line people they can get their hands on ASAP.

Plotter
07-14-2015, 09:54 PM
Great write up Hugh.. I think these questions are spot on and have me worried. There must be some stuff going on behind the scenes with the different groups... I know I talked to a few dealers that have no issue continuing with EBR... My only thing would be... most of the parts dealers... they are just waiting to get paid for parts that have already been delivered.. I am sure they are directly being contacted with updates... and I think you are right.. with the right buyer, this could be smoothed over much easier...

Easiest way to call in the next year model... get different colors...

Knolly
07-15-2015, 03:09 AM
Has anyone found any information on how the auction is taking place? I'm guessing the company is being broken into pretty big lots for a private buyer, but I wanted to at least look into it for personal reasons.

Hughlysses
07-15-2015, 04:07 AM
Has anyone found any information on how the auction is taking place? I'm guessing the company is being broken into pretty big lots for a private buyer, but I wanted to at least look into it for personal reasons.

Knolly- according to papers a friend of mine who owns an EBR received from the lawyer in charge of the sale (the "receiver"), the auction is broken up into 8 or 9 lots. The lots consist of things like the the EBR name and intellectual property (IP), motorcycles and parts, IP developed for Hero but apparently never paid for, and all the motorcycle production equipment. Each of the 8 lots is a pretty big "chunk". You definitely can't buy just a few parts or tools.

Classax
07-15-2015, 07:52 AM
If Polaris is truly out, BRP is my next bet. I think the company would need to concentrate on customers, dealers and supply chain. Ducati sells a lifestyle not motorcycles. EBR has to find a way to do the same. Develop current customer support, hit the market with a quality middle weight, and play up the average man can win club racer success. They won't be making bikes for a while I would imagine.

Plotter
07-15-2015, 07:29 PM
Ducati has the luxury of selling a lifestyle, because they are owned by Audi... EBR needs a company with the financial backing and resources to do more than just track bikes... They were on the right track... let's be honest here... this is because of Hero that they are in the position they are in... They were starting to make the bikes that would have gotten then past the hump...

Knolly
07-16-2015, 12:43 AM
Knolly- according to papers a friend of mine who owns an EBR received from the lawyer in charge of the sale (the "receiver"), the auction is broken up into 8 or 9 lots. The lots consist of things like the the EBR name and intellectual property (IP), motorcycles and parts, IP developed for Hero but apparently never paid for, and all the motorcycle production equipment. Each of the 8 lots is a pretty big "chunk". You definitely can't buy just a few parts or tools.
Ah, thanks for the information. If the development bikes were for sale on their own I would have liked to throw a nice chunk of change at them. I have a very treasured memory of visiting EBR when it only had 20 employees and running my hands across the 1190RS prototype/dev bike. Of course I'd only be holding them for safe keeping until they had a new home with the next generation of Buells.