Has anyone looked into the cause of the front rod failures?

[EBRRider]

To start off with Sorry if this is very jumbled but its the only way I could copy and paste it on this forum off of Face book


Has anyone looked into the cause of the front rod failures?thought it was primarily limited to the 1190? 1125’s have this problem as well?Just ride them till they blow.Yes. And it’s not the rod that fails. Instead of just saying it's not the rod that fails, why not say what actually fails if you are so enlightened?Valve retainer,drops valve valve hits piston and kaboom. It's the cylinder wall thickness. It has the same OD as the 1125 and is bored 3mm taking away 1.5mm of wall thickness. I used to be the Race Engine Builder before we got shut down.Shane if your saying the cylinder wall thickness is the issue why did one off five 1125r's also blow and break cases?that was a number of things, heavier crank, crank nuts backing off, followers breaking and valves hitting piston1125's had the same potential but not as much as the 1190. When you take something that is adequate and remove material it becomes inadequate.How about inserting a steel liner, would that fix or help the 1190?.....no more room. The cylinder wall thickness to outer diameter is too thin The liner is the only viable option. We did a set right before the shut down but never had a chance to test them. L.A. Sleeve did them and I'm sure they would do another set but I do not recal the price.so is it just a matter of time for us all?Technically, no. But it all depends on how you ride it. Stress on the cylinder spigot is unacceptable at max RPM. A typical street rider most likely won't have an issue. If you are aggressive or track day/racer I would recommend the liners.thanks Shane I have an Aprilia v2 rotax L A sleeve did the liners out to 1102cc super reliable even on track.what max rpm do you recommend for the track, cheers Probably around 8000 but there is still a lot of stress at that point and eventually it will fail.JEEZ I regularly push to 10k. Where do I get these liners. And is it expensive to have a mechanic install them If someone gets this modification done with L A sleeve or gets the specs from when it was done before then we can send our cylinders to LA sleeve to get done For longevity. I don't recall the cost. I'm fairly certain that they would eliminate the problem. But like I said, they were never tested but they are the best option. You only send them the cylinders so if you can't do that yourself it could get pretty costly. I'd probably charge $1500 ($1000 if it was engine only) due to the fact that the bike will be apart for 3-4 weeks depending on their lead time.when you say you were the race engine builder, what does that mean? What did you do to the engines/ecm and what was the typical outcome and cost? I was building engines for Cory West in AMA Superbike and when the guys in WSBK were having trouble with engine durability, I took over that program as well. We were over 200 HP but I couldn't comment on cost but it was expensive. A lot of 1 off parts.so in order to build them you had to have custom parts? Is it something that could still be done or not really? It could be done but pricey. More than the Cast Iron liners.my mouth waters at a 200hp rx In my case I have a theory that is in no way accurate. First let me give you the back story: I bought my 2016 1190sx with 372 miles on Feb 4 2018. On March 2 on my way home from work the front rod punted through the case. I was in second gear at 70 mph.. probably about 8000 RPM. About a week later I was cleaning the garage and dumping the oil from my catch pan to a 1.6 gallon container. The only oil in that catch pan was from the 620 mile service and some fork oil from my zx10r. I filled that jug. I estimate no less than 4.5 quarts and as much as 5 came out of my 1190sx. After having some time to reflect and research. I was offered a lot of opinions about thin cylinder walls setting up a vibration causing the rings to hang, stick and then the rod snaps... That's possible I suppose, I can't say that I know because I'm not that familiar with this engine or V-twins in general. So I don't know that the thin cylinder walls hypothesis is NOT the case. What I do know is that in ANY engine if you over fill it with oil you risk frothing the oil, causing oil not to be pumped, damaging everything. In my case, someone who had possession of the bike previous to my ownership, overfilled the oil, it didn't kill it immediately, it did enough damage to turn it it to an accident waiting to happen.If you got it with 372, then did you do the 620 service? If so, the oil level is on you, not the previous owner.Umm when you pull 4 -5 quarts out of a bike.... And you put 3.2 in.... At that point yeah its on me. And I did it right.I have visions of this happening to me and all my friends on jap bikes pointing and saying "I told you so"it is just paranoia to be honest. The bike has never gave a reason for something to happen. My problem is I rely heavily on people like to help me out when something goes wrong as I’m not a mechanic in any shape or form. **** I’d probably put the wrong kind of water in the coolant. LolRide and enjoy brother, stay on top of the regular maintenance, do what the manual calls for no more no less. If you're curious check out the EBR Service channel on youtube. They do a very good job of walking you through various procedures.Always welcome, Findlay. If it blows we convert it to a second hand 1125 engine. Just done, they are cheap and last forever. Even the charging system, if it is an 08 https://static.xx.fbcdn.net/images/emoji.php/v9/fd0/1/16/1f602.png😂
We gear it real short and you will hardly feel the differenAside from the factory test mules we don't know about, I figure about a half dozen total EBR's from what I have read about. It happens in jap bikes too. I've know guys that have blown up Kawis, A friend of min had a 'busa named "Bertha" she go so hungry she ate second gear. a friend of mine blew a BMW s1000rr inside of 20,000 miles.Yes, I know. I’ve seen it happen on Honda. If I get 20k out my EBR before it blows I’ll be happy. From what I’ve seen though they tend to go below 10kso I'm guessing here.. 10 failures total... lets say 1000 bikes produced per year.. 14 15 16 17.. 4 years 4000 bikes. that's .2% failure rate. That is really good actually. Those of us that had this failure are just unlucky. I've got an April 2014 RX, its been thrashed for its entire life, it only sees 8000rpm, as you go through to 11500rpm, even on the street, it does not have an easy life, I ride the nuts off of it, always have, its got close to 20'000K's on it......runs..I think its the oil squirter breaking off. Just unfortunate the damage usually includes the squirter. Would be nice to confirm the theory.

[gdisaac07]

I found the Facebook post that you talked about. The most interesting part of it is this:


Shane Myers: It's the cylinder wall thickness. It has the same OD as the 1125 and is bored 3mm taking away 1.5mm of wall thickness. I used to be the Race Engine Builder before we got shut down. 1125's had the same potential but not as much as the 1190. When you take something that is adequate and remove material it becomes inadequate. The liner is the only viable option. We did a set right before the shut down but never had a chance to test them. L.A. Sleeve did them and I'm sure they would do another set but I do not recall the price.

James Howlett: Shane Myers so is it just a matter of time for us all?

Shane Myers: Technically, no. But it all depends on how you ride it. Stress on the cylinder spigot is unacceptable at max RPM. A typical street rider most likely won't have an issue. If you are aggressive or track day/racer I would recommend the liners.

Bryan Aprilia: what max rpm do you recommend for the track, cheers

Shane Myers: Probably around 8000 but there is still a lot of stress at that point and eventually it will fail.

James Howlett: Shane Myers JEEZ I regularly push to 10k. Where do I get these liners. And is it expensive to have a mechanic install them

Bryan Aprilia: If someone gets this modification done with L A sleeve or gets the specs from when it was done before then we can send our cylinders to LA sleeve to get done For longevity.

Shane Myers: I don't recall the cost. I'm fairly certain that they would eliminate the problem. But like I said, they were never tested but they are the best option. You only send them the cylinders so if you can't do that yourself it could get pretty costly. I'd probably charge $1500 ($1000 if it was engine only) due to the fact that the bike will be apart for 3-4 weeks depending on their lead time.

Jeremy Pitman: Shane Myers when you say you were the race engine builder, what does that mean? What did you do to the engines/ecm and what was the typical outcome and cost?

Shane Myers: I was building engines for Cory West in AMA Superbike and when the guys in WSBK were having trouble with engine durability, I took over that program as well. We were over 200 HP but I couldn't comment on cost but it was expensive. A lot of 1 off parts.

For the record, I sent a message to LA Sleeve tonight and hopefully I'll get a chance to talk to them tomorrow about it.

[MakingPAIN]

Keep us posted, for the ones not on the Facebook

[EBRRider]

Keep us posted, for the ones not on the Facebook

That why I posted you you and Cooter to read up.

[MakingPAIN]

Mucho gracias amigo.

[Cooter]

Thanks so much for that:biggrin: It's VERY interesting.... He's got a LOT of hypothesis going on and there aren't enough stock failures to have much info at all. Most common mistake is filling the oil with the bike on a paddock stand. 4-5 quarts??:eek:

It's hard to read but theres quite a few other hypothetical assumptions in the rest of the text as well. I'll assume by "cylinder spigot" he means squirter? And Ya, that evidence would be destroyed with a rod swinging around for sure, so another guess:thumbsdown:

Maybe save a bike from a .2% failure rate is a $1500 job? I'll pass. They're still $10,000 under msrp. Brand new:nut:. I will keep whipping my pretty baby, stay up on maintenance and not worry about it. Mines an early bike, maybe I'm next?:pray:

I will watch this closely for info. I feel I was a bit hard on the new guy:( He seems nice, but understandably upset. His first post 'I beat this thing until it broke, and I blame the bike, and my other bikes are better' would rub me wrong regardless of the brand he was talking about. I would be pissed too but... responsibility much? FWIW, I wouldn't jump into the middle of the fan base, talking smack about them and asking for help at the same time.

[gdisaac07]

Thanks so much for thathttp://ebrforum.com/images/smilies/biggrin.gif It's VERY interesting.... He's got a LOT of hypothesis going on and there aren't enough stock failures to have much info at all. Most common mistake is filling the oil with the bike on a paddock stand. 4-5 quarts??http://ebrforum.com/images/smilies/eek.gif

It's hard to read but theres quite a few other hypothetical assumptions in the rest of the text as well. I'll assume by "cylinder spigot" he means squirter? And Ya, that evidence would be destroyed with a rod swinging around for sure, so another guesshttp://ebrforum.com/images/smilies/plthumbsdown.gif

Maybe save a bike from a .2% failure rate is a $1500 job? I'll pass. They're still $10,000 under msrp. Brand newhttp://ebrforum.com/images/smilies/nut.gif. I will keep whipping my pretty baby, stay up on maintenance and not worry about it. Mines an early bike, maybe I'm next?http://ebrforum.com/images/smilies/pray.gif

I will watch this closely for info. I feel I was a bit hard on the new guy:( He seems nice, but understandably upset. His first post 'I beat this thing until it broke, and I blame the bike, and my other bikes are better' would rub me wrong regardless of the brand he was talking about. I would be pissed too but... responsibility much? FWIW, I wouldn't jump into the middle of the fan base, talking smack about them and asking for help at the same time.

The text is hard to read, which is why I found the FB post to read it from there to begin with. But Shane is very clear - the cylinder liner is the problem.

The cylinder spigot is the part of the cylinder liner that inserts into the lower end of the engine. It's the weakest part of the cylinder liner.

The oil squirter was brought up by someone else in a different comment.


Tristan Jong-Un: I think its the oil squirter breaking off. Just unfortunate the damage usually includes the squirter. Would be nice to confirm the theory.


As far as the calculated rate of failures - that's wrong. It's ~13/1000 made, which is 1.3%. And those are only the blow ups we know of.

For me, this is a next winter project. Because why not?

Also, he deserved what he got. But he tried hard after he was brought down a peg!

[gdisaac07]

For the record, I think a big part of this is the OP's oil usage. He pulled out too much oil at the first oil change, meaning damage was done by the person who owned the bike before him. I think that's the root cause of the blowup.


Erik Mallory: In my case I have a theory that is in no way accurate. First let me give you the back story: I bought my 2016 1190sx with 372 miles on Feb 4 2018. On March 2 on my way home from work the front rod punted through the case. I was in second gear at 70 mph.. probably about 8000 RPM. About a week later I was cleaning the garage and dumping the oil from my catch pan to a 1.6 gallon container. The only oil in that catch pan was from the 620 mile service and some fork oil from my zx10r. I filled that jug. I estimate no less than 4.5 quarts and as much as 5 came out of my 1190sx. After having some time to reflect and research. I was offered a lot of opinions about thin cylinder walls setting up a vibration causing the rings to hang, stick and then the rod snaps... That's possible I suppose, I can't say that I know because I'm not that familiar with this engine or V-twins in general. So I don't know that the thin cylinder walls hypothesis is NOT the case. What I do know is that in ANY engine if you over fill it with oil you risk frothing the oil, causing oil not to be pumped, damaging everything. In my case, someone who had possession of the bike previous to my ownership, overfilled the oil, it didn't kill it immediately, it did enough damage to turn it it to an accident waiting to happen.

It also means we have a relatively small safety tolerance to our engines, because of what Shane said.

[Cooter]

My calculation guesstimate was based on stock engines. IMHO all bets are off if you're racing. Because, note he was riding that sub 1000mile bike "hard"... "missing shifts"... "redline"... with way too heavy an oil for the ambient temps he was at. Tiny, new tolerances plus cold heavy oil=known V-twin probs:(

I totally agree the EBR's "Pure, real, race engine"* is cut to tight tolerances to get that much power/L, as are all the others, and heck there was no real longevity testing in this exact engine. They pushed the awesome 1125 to higher levels of everything. Maybe there is some resonant vibration, wrong materials, bad design, whatever? No ones found perfection yet:)

I'm not arguing as a brand loyal Bueller. I really don't think the sky is falling just yet, but my eyes are open:thumb: If you've got the wherewithal to want to get the cylinders lined, I don't see an issue with that either:bannana:




*Erik Buell

[gdisaac07]

My calculation guesstimate was based on stock engines. IMHO all bets are off if you're racing. Because, note he was riding that sub 1000mile bike "hard"... "missing shifts"... "redline"... with way too heavy an oil for the ambient temps he was at. Tiny, new tolerances plus cold heavy oil=known V-twin probs:(

I totally agree the EBR's "Pure, real, race engine"* is cut to tight tolerances to get that much power/L, as are all the others, and heck there was no real longevity testing in this exact engine. They pushed the awesome 1125 to higher levels of everything. Maybe there is some resonant vibration, wrong materials, bad design, whatever? No ones found perfection yet:)

I'm not arguing as a brand loyal Bueller. I really don't think the sky is falling just yet, but my eyes are open:thumb: If you've got the wherewithal to want to get the cylinders lined, I don't see an issue with that either:bannana:




*Erik Buell

You're absolutely right that his riding behavior and maintenance choices had a significant impact on the longevity of his motor. However, as someone who plans to do quite a few track days this year, this entire discussion does make me a bit nervous. So anything I can do to make sure I'm not going to go :11shot: is welcome to me.

[Cooter]

So very true. I'll do some track days too, but I ride hard knowing theres no trophy coming:burnout:. I won't be banging off the rev limiter, but I'm shocked
he says sub 8k rpm!?! Whaaa? Thats not even in the power band yet!

The liners start to make sense if it's going to be a track toy (even if that's not the issue). For engine longevity and rider confidence too!:evilgrinblack:

[gdisaac07]

As an update, I talked to the folks at LA Sleeves (which the more I say it, the more it sounds like a tattoo shop). They confirmed that they have worked with EBR in the past. They said that they could definitely do liners for us, either higher-spec spun-cast iron ones, or nikasil-plated liners. Prices seem very reasonable (he said around $200/liner for the cast ones, no pricing for the nikasil ones yet) and he said he'd expect life of 50,000+ miles from the cast ones, maybe more for the nikasil-plated. He said he has a diesel application using the cast ones that has 500,000 miles on it right now and still going.


“There are two types of sleeves,” says LA Sleeve’s Dave Metchkoff. “Centrifugal spun-cast iron and poured cast iron. Of those two manufacturing processes there are also two unequal material composites. There is the most commonly used iron which is simply called grey cast iron. Then there is ductile (also called nodular) iron.”

Poured cast iron is, not surprisingly, poured into a cylinder casting mold. Generally more prone to porosity and weakness, the grey iron material is only as good as its pour and heat treat. Air pockets or carbon deposits can be trapped within the walls of the castings. “If such sleeves are used in a high performance application, they can washboard the surface, crack or become deformed under heavy load,” says Metchkoff.

“The spinning method used to produce centrifugal spun-cast iron will draw the impurities and porosity and air pockets out from the raw casting material’s center to the outer surface, which will be removed while producing sleeves,” Metchkoff continues. “This creates a sleeve material with greater density and micro-structure, which will enable the sleeve to withstand greater loads without losing shape or cylindrical roundness.”

Grey iron is best used in an environment which is highly controlled, Metchkoff says. The installer or engine builder will be satisfied using the grey cast iron in an iron block with very stable wall thickness. The wall thickness is key because it will hold the sleeve in a stable area, ensuring good ring seal.

Ductile iron is twice as hard and strong as the grey iron and is appropriate for applications that are far less predictable, such as in very thin-wall iron block motors or most aftermarket aluminum blocks. “In aluminum blocks, where wall thickness is a major consideration, an engine builder will want to use ductile iron because the ductile material will actually reinforce the lightweight alloy blocks,” Metchkoff says. “The ductile can be warped under a heavy load, but it will return back to its beginning origin because it has tremendous memory. The material has the ability to adapt to the movement of the piston or aluminum block and bring it back to round.”

Source: http://www.enginebuildermag.com/2009/06/engine-blocks-cylinder-sleeves/


I asked him for a full proposal for each liner type, and he said he'd email it to me for me to post publicly.

[EBRRider]

per Shane Myers If LA Sleeve reworks your existing cylinders. I would recommend the nikasil as it has a better surface finish and is more durable.

Jorge Contreras, Well... I have about 30 cyclindes about 90% of them new from the auction I need to get rid of. If this goes through Im willing to do an EBR owners discount

[gdisaac07]

The response from Dave:


We have had some experience sleeving the EBR cylinders. We cannot comment on the motor as a package, as were not experienced with the internal motor components or drive train. But, we have had the opportunity to both re-sleeve the 1190’s to its original standard bore, and we were tasked to create a big bore sleeve design for the cylinders.

We had removed the original cylinder liner for our more performance based MOLY2000 centrifugally spun-cast ductile iron cylinder sleeve liners. Our MOLY2000 is made with greater lubricity, tensile strength, and elongation than is found is production based cylinder sleeve liners. The sleeves are laced with chromium, and molybdenum providing a better surface finish. That will also give you assurance of a better seated ring for the longevity. The ductile will also stay rounder, also acting as a added assurance to combat blow-by.

Ultimately, our goal was simply to provide a better running cylinder for our customer. This was specifically for the standard bore 1190. There is very little history to point to on these cylinder sleeve jobs as those bike are rarity or boutique type ride. We haven’t seen the numbers anywhere close to what we’ve seen in the Japanese street bikes, or Harley’s requiring the same assurance. We’ve had great success in simple street builds, or drag bikes like Eddie Kraiwec or Larry McBride have succeeded on. We’re confident our MOLY2000 material will provide the confidence you want on your power plant. Cost on a re-sleeve is usually $350 per hole or $700 for the twin. If there are repeatable type jobs, the numbers will easily drive down the costs per unit.

The big bore was asked by a EBR patron. The bigger bore was in the design process but the customer backed off the big bore prior to completion. His hope was to take the 1190 out to a 1340. But, project stalled. Based on our findings, we think it could’ve been done. At his point, all we have is theory, and no concrete evidence. Should you consider the big bore, we’d approximate the cost at around $900 to start. Again, if the numbers grow, the cost would reduce. Let me know if you have any other questions.

Sincerely,
Dave Lasco,
L.A.SLEEVE CO., INC.



Points that are important to me:


Cost is $350 per cylinder, or $700 total
The price will decrease with higher order volume
These motors can very possibly handle being bored to 1340cc
The cost for the big bore will be at least $900 total, but know that it will require re-engineering of the piston and rods

@EBRRider Feel free to spread this to the FB group, as I don't have an account. I can enquire about a group buy if people are willing to do so.


Jorge Contreras, Well... I have about 30 cyclindes about 90% of them new from the auction I need to get rid of. If this goes through Im willing to do an EBR owners discount

Also, would you please have Jorge come over and drop me a note? I think I'd like to purchase a front and rear.

[EBRRider]

I will thx Done

[MakingPAIN]

This all seems like speculation at best. About the cylinder issues. At this day and age I haven’t seen liner issues like what’s being spoke about. If anyone is trying to persuade everyone to think these bikes have thousands of inferior cylinders put on the market they are crazy. And if a material issue was the cause I think it would have been found during WBSK or some other racing class that they were running stock internal motors.

And what cooter said or whoever. If you deviate from break in procedure and over fill oil and miss high rpm shift. It will break. And all this done under 700 miles. These are not Harley-Davidson 80 horse pushrod motors. These motors need attention to detail and keen eye when wrenching on them.

And i I know dudes who blow up s1000 and Rsv4. So are those motors build incorrect also?

We we need a master builder to diagnose these engines and give a write up. Then that needs to be peer reviewed by other builders to have and weight in the real world

[gdisaac07]

Shane Myers: I don't know where they go the 1340 idea. There is no room to go bigger on the bore due to the water jackets in the cylinder having a mating surface to the case and it will no longer have a sealing surface for the gasket. With stroke alone it would need to increase 9.5mm (from 67.5 to 76) and the piston would be below the base gasket surface and greatly increasing the stress on the cylinder spigot which is what we are trying to eliminate or conform to. Be happy with the stoke bore and ride it without any fear that its going to blow a hole through your cases.

My personal approach would be to agree with Shane here. If it's me, I'm going to go for a nikasil-plated cylinder sleeve at stock bore. I'm not looking to put down 200hp @ the wheel. I'm looking to put down 178hp @ the wheel for 10 track days a year and not blow up.

[Cooter]

Does he mean this? "Be happy with the stoke bore and ride it without any fear that its going to blow a hole through your cases."

[gdisaac07]

I think he means "Be happy with the stock bore and ride it without any fear that its going to blow a hole through your cases."

[Cooter]

I meant Stock bore/ stock engine? or stock bore with sleeves? I'll assume the latter because his opinion is pro-sleeve.

I still think it's a witch hunt but other than lightening the wallet, why not? If you are doing a valve adjust, it's not much more to swap cylinders. I can't imagine the case would need machining.

Jorge should send the cylinders he already bought to Dave, they could make a dozen and that would drop the $$ a whole bunch, and do the rest on a core charge/ exchange basis. But that's just an idea.

[gdisaac07]

I meant Stock bore/ stock engine? or stock bore with sleeves? I'll assume the latter because his opinion is pro-sleeve.

I still think it's a witch hunt but other than lightening the wallet, why not? If you are doing a valve adjust, it's not much more to swap cylinders. I can't imagine the case would need machining.

Jorge should send the cylinders he already bought to Dave, they could make a dozen and that would drop the $$ a whole bunch, and do the rest on a core charge/ exchange basis. But that's just an idea.

I think he meant stock bore with sleeves.

I'm not sure it is. It makes sense as an explanation, but maybe less because of the hardness of the liners as the quality of the metal.

That's a great idea. I'll ask Dave whether he'd be open to that.

[MrSix]

Hi Erik "Mr Six" Mallory here.
A bike that is past the break in period should be able to be red-lined. Especially one with a race pedigree. Missing a shift or three shouldn't cause a rod to punt in less than 1200 miles. Using heavy oil is an issue at start. the oil is thick and has a hard time getting up to the cams. When it's warm it's not an issue. Agreed not the wisest choice, not the cause of rod failure either. What does cause rod failures by and large, is overfilling the oil. Which is completely possible to do if you do not do the hot oil check. If you read your manual thoroughly the "cold engine check/side stand check" is only a partial check if you just do that, you're doing it wrong.
1951

It's my belief that people are checking the oil on the side stand and over filling causing these failures. the previous owner or the dealership or both made that mistake, so did I. EBR and LAP took care of me, and now I will take care of this engine to the letter of the manual.

[White SX]

Have to agree with everything MrSix is saying here.

[Cooter]

+1 here

Step 5 (c) is very telling.

"AT (or above) the upper line"..... drain some