Blown Engines

[Betterbuell]

Any one here blown a motor? Or am I the King Detonator? My bike has been track only and have so far destroyed two engines. I'm suspecting piston failure at rpm. One front and one rear cylinder . I have actually two bikes, the one still running is in std trim with std ECU and a later year engine that I purchased from a salvage shop. Both engines were original 2014. I'm also about to trial a set of modified brembo pads that suit the Brembo Ducati series 1098-1299. This will give a selection of compounds through to the dual carbon pads which should handle the heat and not tear the rotors to bits.
Seriously http://ebrforum.com/images/icons/icon13.png

[LeesEBR]

What oil are you using?

[Betterbuell]

What oil are you using?
20/50W , oil is going to give you bearing failures, not pistons ending up in two pieces .

[phelan]

What exhaust and ECM are you running on the track bike?

[Betterbuell]

What exhaust and ECM are you running on the track bike?
Using the factory race pipe ex Larry Pegram stock and an IDS ECU , which we dyno tuned. Another guy has the IDS ecu tuned by the same guy and we both achieved 176 rwhp , his is a road bike and apparently going the distance. Not massive numbers, my Pannigale same dyno 194, so I dont think its the tune. Having said that , if I put another motor in it I'm going to retard the ignition advance in the last 1000rpm and or bring the rev limit back 500. We didnt play with the ignition and actually fed more fuel into a/f ratio up high to allow for ram air effect. Personally I dont believe these motors are capable of sustaining higher rpms. Yeah, I know ride the torque, but in race situations and rev out type tracks you get sucked into going to the limiter. (especially when all the dashes Ive had have failed.!

Any one know of a motor kicking about ?

[zviadi]

Perhaps 160 RWHP in stock is the safe constructional limit for this engine?
And all racing ECU and increased RPM - at your risk. You can reach 175-180 RWHP, but not for long. The engine design and the materials are not intended for this.

Not the first time I read about broken engines in any races and when using racing exhaust and racing ECU. Therefore, I use my bike in stock exhaust and ECU. I also often run on high RPM and don't want to change engine every 1000 miles.
I don't race and don't ride on track on my 1190. Just street riding.

[Nemesis]

Hey OP thats sad to hear, makes me mad tbh.

It's why i tell everyone if you're going to buy something you're going to beat on often, cant go past a gsxr you cant kill them. But that's just my opinion!
I love my ebr dont get me wrong but im hesitant to give it grief often.

[Betterbuell]

Perhaps 160 RWHP in stock is the safe constructional limit for this engine?
And all racing ECU and increased RPM - at your risk. You can reach 175-180 RWHP, but not for long. The engine design and the materials are not intended for this.

Not the first time I read about broken engines in any races and when using racing exhaust and racing ECU. Therefore, I use my bike in stock exhaust and ECU. I also often run on high RPM and don't want to change engine every 1000 miles.
I don't race and don't ride on track on my 1190. Just street riding.
I think you may be correct http://ebrforum.com/images/icons/icon14.png

[zviadi]

It would be interesting to ask these questions to Erik - can he clarify this situation?
And further. If I'm not mistaken, 1190 RS engine has titanium rods and forged pistons. Can it make sense to use this engine for tuning and racing? He must have a greater margin of safety.

[Cooter]

I also believe the problem lies with the mods or the use, not the brand. Otherwise there would be a rash of EBR's with the same issue.

So far, keeping the inside bits... inside... has not been an issue for anyone else.

[EBRRider]

For reliabilities reasons I have read that some guys have lowered the RPMs limits in the ECM by 500.

[Cooter]

Is that really a necessary thing? or are people just being overly cautious? I seriously haven't heard of these blowing up?

[EBRRider]

Is that really a necessary thing? or are people just being overly cautious? I seriously haven't heard of these blowing up?

Without warranties, I hope just, being overly cautious? I very rarely hit 8500 ,its just too scary fast.

[phelan]

Early 2014 RXs had Zzuhl titanium rods, some of which had failure, as the later Zzuhl rods are steel. Could be one possible contributor. I don't think it's the power as much as the sustained high RPM. Ducatis are known for similar failures at IOMTT, where it is WFO high RPM most of the time. The massive V-twin pistons don't handle it too well.

[Betterbuell]

Is that really a necessary thing? or are people just being overly cautious? I seriously haven't heard of these blowing up?
Well you have now !? I know of two others in Australia, and the IOM TT didnt go to well either. If you are using as a commute scooter well it would be ok I guess. I was under the presumption it was designed as a sports /race bike . I'm trying not to dump on these , as I actually own two of them but ???? good design but lots of issues that could have been solved with some pre release testing .
:nono:

[zviadi]

Early 2014 RXs had Zzuhl titanium rods, some of which had failure, as the later Zzuhl rods are steel.

My bike produced in February 2014. Often run to 10000 rpm, but of course not often as on tracks. Milleage circa 17500 miles.
Where does the information about pistons and rods?
https://zzuhl.com


I was under the presumption it was designed as a sports /race bike . I'm trying not to dump on these , as I actually own two of them but ???? good design but lots of issues that could have been solved with some pre release testing .

In fact, the engine is taken from 1125R and boosted by 40 hp.
Nothing has changed constructively, only small changes in engine details. No revolutions in construction, no super materials. Where will reliability come from, if this design squeezes another 20 hp?
It's a good bike with a good chassis, I like it - but it's not a revolutionary model. Unlike Panigale or RSV4. Engine design 1190 ever since the first Aprilia Mille 1998 MY! In those days, no one sportbikes had 120 RWHP.
1190 engine just changed volume by 200 ccm compared Rotax engine from Mille - this is the only major change! All other changes in engine design come from volume changes and are themselves secondary and cosmetic.

[Kid Thunder]

I think it has intake titanium values.

[Nemesis]

Well you have now !? I know of two others in Australia, and the IOM TT didnt go to well either. If you are using as a commute scooter well it would be ok I guess. I was under the presumption it was designed as a sports /race bike . I'm trying not to dump on these , as I actually own two of them but ???? good design but lots of issues that could have been solved with some pre release testing .
:nono:


Are you the guy thats selling two of them atm on bikesales?

Small world lol

[Betterbuell]

Are you the guy thats selling two of them atm on bikesales?

Small world lol
That's me ! Sort of cracked the ****s with the brand/bikes, and put them up for sale. Thing is resale is crap, and they are a better bike than their current value . Had some low ball offers on the race bike that are less than the exhaust I just put on my 1299. I'm thinking of keeping it/them and putting one on the road

[Betterbuell]

https://imgur.com/a/f1ARE
Didnt have to take the head off to get it out either .

[Kid Thunder]

What the hell! Worst looking pistons I've ever seen!?

[GABuellDawg]

Any one know of a motor kicking about ?[/QUOTE]

Liquid Performance has two(2) NIB 1190RS motors for sale/auction on EBay. There are also two used RX/SX motors listed for a couple grand, as well.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/EBR-Buell-Erik-Buell-Racing-1190RS-Motor/202132109784?_trkparms=aid%3D222007%26algo%3DSIM.M BE%26ao%3D2%26asc%3D44039%26meid%3D773b5a512d2f485 9962da34f2a27b903%26pid%3D100005%26rk%3D3%26rkt%3D 6%26sd%3D253262225130&_trksid=p2047675.c100005.m1851

[Betterbuell]

Any one know of a motor kicking about ?

Liquid Performance has two(2) NIB 1190RS motors for sale/auction on EBay. There are also two used RX/SX motors listed for a couple grand, as well.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/EBR-Buell-Erik-Buell-Racing-1190RS-Motor/202132109784?_trkparms=aid%3D222007%26algo%3DSIM.M BE%26ao%3D2%26asc%3D44039%26meid%3D773b5a512d2f485 9962da34f2a27b903%26pid%3D100005%26rk%3D3%26rkt%3D 6%26sd%3D253262225130&_trksid=p2047675.c100005.m1851[/QUOTE]

[Betterbuell]

That is more than an 1190 is worth.....this is thwe issue ?

[Cooter]

Racing is expensive. It's not cheap to blow up your motor:deadly:


That's for a RS. That's why they it's more $$ (besides the rarity), but it should put up with your racing much better than a modified street bike motor. Your choice.

[GABuellDawg]

That is more than an 1190 is worth.....this is thwe issue ?

Well, it IS a Brand New RS racing motor. Different pistons and rods if Im not mistaken?...and they are accepting bids so might could pick it up for less than the $7500 BIN price... Used RX motors for $1900-$2200 are out there. Good Luck! :cheers:

[Betterbuell]

Thanks

[phelan]

My bike produced in February 2014. Often run to 10000 rpm, but of course not often as on tracks. Milleage circa 17500 miles.
Where does the information about pistons and rods?
https://zzuhl.com



In fact, the engine is taken from 1125R and boosted by 40 hp.
Nothing has changed constructively, only small changes in engine details. No revolutions in construction, no super materials. Where will reliability come from, if this design squeezes another 20 hp?
It's a good bike with a good chassis, I like it - but it's not a revolutionary model. Unlike Panigale or RSV4. Engine design 1190 ever since the first Aprilia Mille 1998 MY! In those days, no one sportbikes had 120 RWHP.
1190 engine just changed volume by 200 ccm compared Rotax engine from Mille - this is the only major change! All other changes in engine design come from volume changes and are themselves secondary and cosmetic.

The crank, pistons, bore, valves, valve seats, springs, cams, etc are new pieces. The crank is lighter to spin faster, the valves are titanium by Del West to allow higher revving (and Del West valve seats to accommodate The valves), different water pump and charging assemblies, etc. 95% of the components on the 1190 are different than the 1125.

[phelan]

RS motor is a completely different animal than the RX/SX. Also you cannot simply swap one in as the tune is completely different. RS motor has a lighter crank, Carillo rods, CP pistons (with different design and compression than RX/SX), slightly different valves, chambers, and porting than RX/SX, different cams, different exhaust, etc. The Carillo rods are stronger than the RX/SX rods but they do not fit the RX/SX motors.

[Betterbuell]

I'll give them a miss then :beat:

[LeesEBR]

Is it just me or does it sound like the RX/SX motor wasn't designed for racing, like the RS, and that's the primary reason for it breaking? It's an incredibly powerful street motor, not a full time track powerplant?

[Cooter]

I totally agree with you. It was meant to be a hyper sport street bike, and it sure is! Every bit of dependable power was wrung out of it:nut:

Once someone mods it for more power all bets are off... and then beat it on a racetrack too!?! it's safe to say your well beyond the design intent. Even if there was an EBR warranty available, I sure wouldn't expect them to honor it.:beat:

If someone wants to beat a bike mercilessly on a track and wants it to be 'dependable', it makes sense to at least leave it stock right??... Theres no way to mod it for max power and expect it to be just as dependable. No Way. Heck, I'll even drop the redline 500rpm, because I don't feel like replacing engines (twice, lol) We call it the "Horsepower Tax". If you want a faster track bike, buy a faster bike. You can't be cheap in this hobby, you'll pay eventually.:deadly:

Looks like a great opportunity for the OP to get a legit 'racing' engine into his bike. I hope he's smart enough to pick one up. The outlay of cash for a nice engine will far outweigh the cost to keep replacing ones that aren't meant for that abuse. Even if he's just doing track days for fun. No winners, no glory, no money, it makes sense to keep it as cheap as you can.

[Nemesis]

That's me ! Sort of cracked the ****s with the brand/bikes, and put them up for sale. Thing is resale is crap, and they are a better bike than their current value . Had some low ball offers on the race bike that are less than the exhaust I just put on my 1299. I'm thinking of keeping it/them and putting one on the road


I dont blame you my friend.

Yeh dude keep it on the road! If theres anyone you know that tunes them in victoria let me know, i dont know who to take it too.

[Classax]

I think you have remember to see it for what it is. In 2014 only the s1krr produced more peak hp. To get more you needed factory race kit parts and tuning. It wasn't until everyone up the RPMs and displacement or started including pieces of said race kits did we start to see superstock machines putting down 180hp @ the rear. And to be fair, there are a fair number of grenaded R1Ms and Zx10 out there. Great as the Apes are there are least 15 owners on the sister site with similar catastrophic issues. Let's not even mention the 1199 and its early year engine woes.

These guys pretty much ran the same set up at WSBK so unless you want to spend another 70Gs to make it a proper Superbike (under powered compared to the field) it is what it is. As a streetbike or SS contender, it's very potent.

[Cooter]

Re-sale!?! Lol. Here's my opinion of why I think the EBR's that I love are the deal of the century.

My Duc and Bimmer buddies ask 'what if I wreck it off a cliff or blow a motor... who will fix it??'. I always reply "No one, I'll have e-bay deliver a brand new one to my door for less than your valve adjustments."

Fun fact:
If you take the comparable 2014 Ducati 1199 (abs) vs. the 2014 EBR RX, the percentage of msrp thats left in todays re-sale market between the two is very, very close.
Ducati (48-63%) $18,995 msrp and $9,175 to $12,070 re-sale
http://www.nadaguides.com/Motorcycles/2014/Ducati/1199-PANIGALE-ABS-1198cc/Values

EBR (39-55%) $17,995 msrp and $7000 to $9955 re-sale
https://www.kbb.com/motorcycles/ebr/1190rx/2014/?pricetype=retail

The EBR takes a slight dip lower (8-9%) as a result of the perception of parts availability and no factory backing. At least those are the first 2 things any 'biker' says when I pull up, lol. I haven't checked any other brand comparison, but for similar bikes I bet it's the same.
Then theres the reality of buying a boat, RV, sportscar, or (ahem) motorcycle for 're-sale value'. You're doing it wrong. :smashfreak: lol.

[EBRRider]

As the Cooter said ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
What other World class Super bike can you buy and ride for a year and sell it for about the same amount you paid for it ?? I am waiting? :deadhorse_1:

[Kid Thunder]

Here here. EBRRider!!! Not much compares to the EBR if you are looking an analog bike .

[Betterbuell]

I think you have remember to see it for what it is. In 2014 only the s1krr produced more peak hp. To get more you needed factory race kit parts and tuning. It wasn't until everyone up the RPMs and displacement or started including pieces of said race kits did we start to see superstock machines putting down 180hp @ the rear. And to be fair, there are a fair number of grenaded R1Ms and Zx10 out there. Great as the Apes are there are least 15 owners on the sister site with similar catastrophic issues. Let's not even mention the 1199 and its early year engine woes.

These guys pretty much ran the same set up at WSBK so unless you want to spend another 70Gs to make it a proper Superbike (under powered compared to the field) it is what it is. As a streetbike or SS contender, it's very potent.
Mate, I do agree to some extent on most of your points. A pipe and ECU + tune to run at an optimum air/fuel ratio is not a high powered mod. Spark advance and rpm limits were not changed. 1500 track km is well inside acceptable rebuild distances. Yes I do accept any thing to do with track is outside of general expectations and warranty never occurred to me. Value , well if you pick one up at current devalued prices , you have little to loose. My second bike was supplied to me at a race support price, so I havent lost that much on one bike , but paid retail for the first one. Yes I did buy a faster bike, a 1299 Panigale and so far it has taken my "beatings and asking for more:smashfreak: EBR took a rotax motor threw on a set of heads and increased the RPM to get marketable horsepower . I havent pulled either motor apart , but I would question the quality of the pistons used, on the 2014 models at least.
The whole EBR story is quite sad, basically a great bike that needed another model to refine the brand. If Americans had supported the brand on their own turf, EBR would still be rolling off the line, possibly third generation by now!

[d_adams]

If Americans had supported the brand on their own turf, EBR would still be rolling off the line, possibly third generation by now!

I tried. Unfortunately, even paying retail for the first one in my state wasn't enough. I'm on my 4th one now, I've had numerous Buells over the last 10 years and it just wasn't enough. Prior to the multiple shutdowns, maybe 300 bikes out of 1100 were sold, at most. It's all about money. It costs a small fortune to do what Erik tried to do (on more than one occasion) and there simply weren't enough buyers. Lack of advertising, lack of sales and just **** luck in general did them in. The last time he tried, he put EVERYTHING he had on the line. Last I heard, he had to sell his house just to get by, basically he's broke. LAP is running the show now and it's not much of a show. All they want is more $$, they've already recuperated their initial investment of (any guesses on this?) about 1.6 million and made a fortune since then.

[Doosh]

If someone wants to beat a bike mercilessly on a track and wants it to be 'dependable', it makes sense to at least leave it stock right??... Theres no way to mod it for max power and expect it to be just as dependable.

The 1190RX is unsafe, IMHO, left stock.

The primary issue is it will catch a belly pan on fire because of the cats. So, you can either run without a fluid retaining pan -- which no race org will ever pass you through tech if you even try this -- or you have to replace the OEM exhaust because it will ignite any belly pan tight enough not to be destroyed in the normal course of track riding, even at a modest pace.

This situation is becoming increasingly common as the regulations on street vehicles are ever tighter. It's pretty hard to make a bike that will pass EPA and at the same time be safe on the race track wrung out. You can do it more easily on the lower power machines, but get into big bike territory and it's difficult.

BTW, I haven't blow up any motors, but I've been through a couple. In both cases, the clutch basket nut backed off -- even though I check that part before each race. This motor just happens to have the right mix of harmonics and unbalanced behavior that's the part it loves to shake loose. Back in the 1125r days, it was the stator nut, and a whole bunch of those motors fused main bearings from it...

[Cooter]

My comment wasn't about the stock fairings. It was meant to point out that a stock bike is not a race bike. Seems like you agree.

The OP was whining about blowing up race modded stock motors and blaming the OEM. Seems silly? Specifically, I meant that if the OP doesn't like buying motors for his "race bike" he would get more dependability at stock power levels, or buy a race motor (RS). Neither of which is EBR's fault. Fact, an engine modded for more power than it's design parameters, will be more apt to detonate. Something I learned with my dads lawnmower when I was 10 years old. Sorry Dad:tongue:

You have an interesting comment though. The stock lower fairing around the muffler isn't sealed or remotely close to a "belly pan" and you are right, it would never pass tech as such. I'm sure if I bothered to look there are a couple internet stories of the stock fairing melting during track day runs (My old liter Ninja did that... in 1986!!:rolleyes:), but I haven't heard of the rash of RX exhaust fires you speak of? You could certainly never "race" an RX in that condition for the reasons you mentioned. I know it isn't mandatory, but the diaper I put inside the Hot Bodies lower pan doesn't let any melting happen of even that cheap fiberglass and it's good for my confidence level too:ar15: .

Edit: If it's such big problem you need to check it that often and I'm sure you've tried many things. I wonder if over-torque could be the issue? I have even had Loctite 272 (primered, clean threads) let go on an overstressed stud.

[Betterbuell]

[QUOTE=Cooter;12798]My comment wasn't about the stock fairings. It was meant to point out that a stock bike is not a race bike. Seems like you agree.

The OP was whining about blowing up race modded stock motors and blaming the OEM. Seems silly?

Hey Dean, do you have a disclaimer on your invoices, "Not For Road Use" "Your motor is now RACE modded, Not For Track Use"

I would hardly call a motor that runs cooler and smoother because of correct a/f ratios race modded ? So everyone here that has put on a DA exhaust , an air filter and ECU tune that takes it to a track day expect the unexpected. Ok an improvement would defineatly be to bring the rpm limiter back 500rpm. To stop any criticism on my riding style , I usually go for the short shift option and use the torque range rather than revs to get around. Never had an I4 allways VTwins.

[d_adams]

I stopped putting tags on them after I hit 500 systems built, so no disclaimers any longer. I probably should, even though it's a given as to their intended use.

[MakingPAIN]

1882 He let me know

[MakingPAIN]

And blowing engines while racing goes hand and hand. Top fuel most the time won’t make a full pass and that like 8 horse per cubic inch. Then pro stock are like 4 horse per cubic inch. Our bikes are like 2.8 or something (all number are top of head) so a season of racing is great for something like this machine

dont get me wrong it sucks but most machines are like 1 horse per cubic inch that’s why they last. The engine physically can’t eat itself

[zviadi]

Two hours ago also happened... Heavy smoke, roar, fire from exhaust pipe, oil in all directions... Blowed up the engine as professional motoGP racers on the track.
Milleage is 36200 km.

[Cooter]

That sucks man, sorry to hear that.

Aren't these the sprockets you posted yesterday?
https://ebrforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=2064&d=1537815485&thumb=1

Sorry, had too.... and glad you're OK.

But the good news is there's three 1190 engines to choose from on e-bay right now for only $2k-ish! And a RS for a really cheap $5k! if you want a true "race motor".
https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_sacat=0&_nkw=ebr+1190&_sop=3

[zviadi]

That sucks man, sorry to hear that.

Everything is fine. I'm ok. This my second engine for three months, the first was on Z1000.
EBR engine was giving signs to me in the summer. It has nothing to do with sprockets. Bike just tired.
I don't care.
Now I'm left without both bikes and I'm pedestrian. Winter is coming))) There is a time to think about buying a motorcycle. Maybe EBR again... I'm not sure if need to repair my bike and change the engine.

[EBRRider]

Glad you are ok ,

2 engines on 2 different bikes?? Why ? is the gas bad? What were your early signs in the summer on the EBR ? Thx for info.

[zviadi]

2 engines on 2 different bikes?? Why ?

Apparently, ride too fast:burnout:
On Z1000 - twisted rpm to cut off, very sluggish bike... 2007 MY. When buying him, mileage was 19750 km. At mileage 35030 km engine fall - rod plain turned.
On EBR 1190 - last two years ride in city and in suburbs as on track with a knee.
I don't regret any my bikes. Just serve scheduled maintence. The engines were fall only on three jap bikes and EBR. KTM and two Aprilias were survive, but their mileage was 15-20000 km, then I sold them. Z1000 has died to sale, EBR 1190 didn't want to sell - I love it.

[zviadi]

What were your early signs in the summer on the EBR ?

Both bikes, shortly before the engine died, had a rumble in alternator area at strong lean angle to left. Soot in the exhaust when the engine starts. Jerks when driving at low-mid rpm on flat gas, interruptions with fuel supply to low-mid rpm.
The EBR had problems with cooling - liquid began to go away, I run without thermostats. Where she went - I never found. Engine did not smoke and oil level did not decrease. Z1000 consumed 1 liter oil per 1000 km. EBR had permanent problems with lambdas of both cylinders - I changed them six times in two years.

Sorry from bad english, it's hard for me to write such complex technical details...

[Betterbuell]

Interesting

[zviadi]

Continuation of my cool story. I found the reason of coolant leaking - beating cylinder head gasket. Possible crack in cylinder head. No wonder couldn't find coolant leak visually... Hence the smoke.
The day before yesterday started the engine - it works with roar and thick white smoke.
I decided to sell the bike as non-working. I see no reason to repair this engine or buy a contract engine. Economically impractical.
I'm looking another bike, maybe Speed Triple 1050 or SD1290... Closer to spring.

[Betterbuell]

Wise move they are time bombs

[zviadi]

Bike sold for 3000$.
New owner:
20762077

I warned him many times that bikes after my rides are not in good condition, but he did not believe me)))
He is ready to change engine and keep it in collection.
Wish him good luck.

But seriously - I really liked this bike. Despite the problems with reliability.
Maybe the new owner of my bike will register here... And I'll leave you.
Good luck and take care!

[Betterbuell]

My EBR
https://www.ebay.com.au/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_trksid=p2380057.m570.l1313.TR12.TRC2.A0.H0.Xebr11 90.TRS0&_nkw=ebr1190&_sacat=0

[theotherdave]

Just came across this thread and thought it would be interesting to you guys to know that NCCR in Sweden has figured out the cause of these engine failures.

It's chassis flex with the engine being a stressed member.

And they have a youtube video that is very good at explaining it.

They developed a billet aluminum kit to brace the frame, costs $1000 or so depending on options. Not cheap, but neither is CNC machining or replacing engines in these. I'll be getting one for my RS Carbon very soon.