PDA

View Full Version : Is There Any Hope for a Revived EBR?



Scott
08-02-2017, 10:49 AM
I suspect many of you feel similar to me in that I've pretty much given up. It seems like Buell/EBR is a thing of the past and we may never see an American Sport-bike again.

But there are forces that seem like they should work in favor of a new EBR at some point.

For one thing, LAP right now is sitting on an asset that they believe is worth $500,000 plus. Whatever you may think of LAP, they're not stupid, they don't throw money away and they know the motorcycle industry.

If they can't sell that EBR IP, there's a good chance they'll end up losing money on the whole thing, and I doubt they expect to come out of this losing money.

And with recent rumors that both Harley and Polaris/Indian were interested in buying Ducati, it seems absolutely crazy that they wouldn't also be considering buying EBR.

Sure, Ducati is a very different company with a rich heritage, but if both Harley and Polaris think the future is bright for Ducati and the kind of bikes they make, why not invest a tiny fraction of what it would cost to buy Ducati and buy EBR?

EBR has a bike that's nearly there. With a little work (and information that was learned from the racing program) I have no doubt either Harley or Polaris (or some other company) could refine the EBR design to make it more competitive on the race-track. Then invest another tiny fraction of that Ducati money into a serious MotoAmerica race team.

Win a few races and that improved EBR bike could easily sell for $20,000 and then somebody has the genesis for an "American Ducati".

It seems to make too much sense for somebody to not risk the relatively small capital it would take. But it's not my money and the people who do have the money obviously aren't doing that.

I can assure you that if I win the lottery, the first call I'll make will be to LAP.

Purves
08-02-2017, 12:05 PM
As some of you may agree- Harley should've used Buell as a way to diversify their portfolio in order to reach a broader range of motorcycle enthusiasts. Instead they bastardized the brand (change this, build it this way instead, Erik) and only considered it as a stepping stone to a cruiser. I think if BMC was still around today, the brand could be a great way for HD to reach the Millennials... Think Scrambler Ducati, only Scrambler Buell.
Harley is good at retailing clothes… They could’ve offered a trendy Scrambler Buell line of skinny jeans, plad shirts and orange lensed Aviator sunglasses. They could sponsor Safe Zones on liberal arts college campuses. (yes, I am going over the top here).
A visionary company diversifies itself. Look at how 3M evolved over the years. It started off as a coal company and now they sell tape. Harley is not a visionary company. They were for the longest time a cash cow and are now starting to feel the pain of not evolving with the times.
HD Motorcycles come with a stigma that some people do not want to associate with. I would think the Buell line (not EBR) if properly utilized could be a success.
I’m rambling… now to the OP’s point:
I hate to say it but I don't think the EBR IP is worth pursuing for a lot of larger companies like PII... I think they have their own technology that they could pursue if they desired to enter into the superbike category. As for HD- they own the rights to the Buell name. I would "think" BMC is worth more than EBR. Would you say that more people are familiar with Buell American Motorcycles than Erik Buell Racing? What is more marketable? Just my thoughts- what do I know...

Now, a small boutique company likes Motus? Possibly. Would be cool to see it happen!

Hughlysses
08-02-2017, 12:56 PM
Former Buell and EBR engineer Steve Anderson chimed in on a thread about EBR on Badweb a few weeks ago. We were discussing the planned line of 3-cylinder middleweight bikes that Buell was working on prior to Buell's closure. He provided this very interesting bit of info about the follow up to this project at EBR:


Erik came up with a new plan for a middleweight at EBR, which would have been a parallel Twin instead of a Triple. It was a very advanced engine, designed by an impressive team with a lot of experience. The engine itself was very light and compact, and would have far exceeded XB12 power levels in 800-850cc form. It's probably not that different from what KTM is coming out with this fall, though likely somewhat lighter and more powerful. It might have been manufactured by Hero, or shared with Hero, partly sourced in India and elsewhere and assembled in East Troy. But the Hero plans went astray, and the engine design was entirely funded by EBR. It was never tooled or even fully prototyped.

You have to figure that design is included in the IP held by LAP. Erik hinted that a sub-$10k bike was just a few months away from production after EBR went into receivership; I'll bet this was it. To me, this seems like an even more valuable asset in EBR's portfolio. I really think if Hero had just stuck with the plan for another 2 or 3 months, EBR could have become self-sufficient. This bike would have attracted a lot of younger buyers to the brand.

It sure seems like someone would have an interest in picking up this design and running with it.

Scott
08-02-2017, 01:51 PM
As some of you may agree- Harley should've used Buell as a way to diversify their portfolio in order to reach a broader range of motorcycle enthusiasts. Instead they bastardized the brand (change this, build it this way instead, Erik) and only considered it as a stepping stone to a cruiser. I think if BMC was still around today, the brand could be a great way for HD to reach the Millennials... Think Scrambler Ducati, only Scrambler Buell.
Harley is good at retailing clothes… They could’ve offered a trendy Scrambler Buell line of skinny jeans, plad shirts and orange lensed Aviator sunglasses. They could sponsor Safe Zones on liberal arts college campuses. (yes, I am going over the top here).
A visionary company diversifies itself. Look at how 3M evolved over the years. It started off as a coal company and now they sell tape. Harley is not a visionary company. They were for the longest time a cash cow and are now starting to feel the pain of not evolving with the times.
HD Motorcycles come with a stigma that some people do not want to associate with. I would think the Buell line (not EBR) if properly utilized could be a success.
I’m rambling… now to the OP’s point:
I hate to say it but I don't think the EBR IP is worth pursuing for a lot of larger companies like PII... I think they have their own technology that they could pursue if they desired to enter into the superbike category. As for HD- they own the rights to the Buell name. I would "think" BMC is worth more than EBR. Would you say that more people are familiar with Buell American Motorcycles than Erik Buell Racing? What is more marketable? Just my thoughts- what do I know...

Now, a small boutique company likes Motus? Possibly. Would be cool to see it happen!

Yeah, if the rumors of Harley being interested in buying Ducati are true, it's ironic that, with better management and allowing Buell to be Buell (and then sticking through the tough times) Buell could probably rival Ducati right now. If we went back in time, there was probably a point at which Buell under Harley wasn't much smaller than Ducati, but Ducati had the freedom to do what they and their customers wanted and Buell was hobbled by Harley.

Scott
08-02-2017, 01:55 PM
Former Buell and EBR engineer Steve Anderson chimed in on a thread about EBR on Badweb a few weeks ago. We were discussing the planned line of 3-cylinder middleweight bikes that Buell was working on prior to Buell's closure. He provided this very interesting bit of info about the follow up to this project at EBR:



You have to figure that design is included in the IP held by LAP. Erik hinted that a sub-$10k bike was just a few months away from production after EBR went into receivership; I'll bet this was it. To me, this seems like an even more valuable asset in EBR's portfolio. I really think if Hero had just stuck with the plan for another 2 or 3 months, EBR could have become self-sufficient. This bike would have attracted a lot of younger buyers to the brand.

It sure seems like someone would have an interest in picking up this design and running with it.

That's the exact bike I want. Just makes it more disappointing.

Let's just hope LAP can make the right sale's pitch to the right person.

It does seem like they're trying to keep something running. I'm guessing part of what they need is for the old bikes to get off the dealer floors, if possible. Any potential buyer is not going to want to have to compete with dirt-cheap leftover models.

Hughlysses
08-02-2017, 02:20 PM
Hell, Steve got me interested in the KTM: the 790 Duke. They have a hell of a promo video showing a rider ripping it up. That bike won't be released until late this year or early next. Just think if EBR had had something similar in their showrooms ~1 year ago.

Purves
08-02-2017, 02:35 PM
Yeah, if the rumors of Harley being interested in buying Ducati are true, it's ironic that, with better management and allowing Buell to be Buell (and then sticking through the tough times) Buell could probably rival Ducati right now. If we went back in time, there was probably a point at which Buell under Harley wasn't much smaller than Ducati, but Ducati had the freedom to do what they and their customers wanted and Buell was hobbled by Harley.

I agree. Sad, isn't it?

Purves
08-02-2017, 02:44 PM
Former Buell and EBR engineer Steve Anderson chimed in on a thread about EBR on Badweb a few weeks ago. We were discussing the planned line of 3-cylinder middleweight bikes that Buell was working on prior to Buell's closure. He provided this very interesting bit of info about the follow up to this project at EBR:



You have to figure that design is included in the IP held by LAP. Erik hinted that a sub-$10k bike was just a few months away from production after EBR went into receivership; I'll bet this was it. To me, this seems like an even more valuable asset in EBR's portfolio. I really think if Hero had just stuck with the plan for another 2 or 3 months, EBR could have become self-sufficient. This bike would have attracted a lot of younger buyers to the brand.

It sure seems like someone would have an interest in picking up this design and running with it.

Could be a nice starter package for Motus or Arch... : )

Cooter
08-02-2017, 06:05 PM
"Scrambler Buell line of skinny jeans, plad shirts and orange lensed Aviator sunglasses" so funny, and so sadly very true.

IMO, The biggest hurdle for EBR was being late to the game. It's a world class bike to be sure! When it was designed in 2012.

Look at what every other MFG offers in an electronic package today. A 225hp super bike with heated grips, cruise control, Lean angle sensitive ABS, Ride Modes... It's not just the pretty TFT screen with the angle meter... Heck the new RSV-4 can be programmed for different rev limits, traction control, wheelie control, etc... PER CORNER... with your i-Phone.

People WANT that and EBR never had the massive capital to design it on the RX/SX. I'm an analog guy and a purist, so I appreciate my SX as such but most people like the 'safety' of intervening computer controls:( Erik will never be 'that guy'.

1190SX
08-02-2017, 08:51 PM
I like made in America as much as the next guy, but 20k for an EBR? I'll buy another BMW or a Ducati

oddball
08-02-2017, 10:46 PM
It probably would have been best if HD had sold Buell to Can-Am/BRP when they shut everything down. oh well. Those parallel twins would have been a different configuration and exhaust note to get used too.

Looks like all the 2017 RX sold now. Just a couple 15/16 ones with the rest 2014. It'll be a long sit on the showrooms for them. At this point I'd be more interested if EBR came back as Electric Bike Racing.

han
08-02-2017, 11:12 PM
I like made in America as much as the next guy, but 20k for an EBR? I'll buy another BMW or a Ducati

Yup not worth that much.Not fast enough or well known.It could get away with lack of electronics from a marketing standpoint if it was killing every brand in power along with its already excellent handling.

Purves
08-03-2017, 07:07 AM
"Scrambler Buell line of skinny jeans, plad shirts and orange lensed Aviator sunglasses" so funny, and so sadly very true.

IMO, The biggest hurdle for EBR was being late to the game. It's a world class bike to be sure! When it was designed in 2012.

Look at what every other MFG offers in an electronic package today. A 225hp super bike with heated grips, cruise control, Lean angle sensitive ABS, Ride Modes... It's not just the pretty TFT screen with the angle meter... Heck the new RSV-4 can be programmed for different rev limits, traction control, wheelie control, etc... PER CORNER... with your i-Phone.

People WANT that and EBR never had the massive capital to design it on the RX/SX. I'm an analog guy and a purist, so I appreciate my SX as such but most people like the 'safety' of intervening computer controls:( Erik will never be 'that guy'.


You're right!

I read an article earlier in the week on Yamaha's new 2018 YZ450F. The bike's EFI can now be tuned by using an App on a phone. It's cray cray!

MakingPAIN
08-03-2017, 09:13 AM
From most of the interviews with Erik that I have seen, he wasn't into the electronics like everyone else. Not only did he not have the money to dabble in R@D with ABS and bank angle tech but it almost felt like he didn't like that stuff and was only doing it for sales. Which is smart. I am more into the raw untamed feeling of a motorcycle than a bunch of buttons and sensors telling me to go slower. I love these Bikes I think with the right backer that just let Erik and his team fly with what they think will work, these Bikes would be world class.......

Scott
08-03-2017, 10:07 AM
I like made in America as much as the next guy, but 20k for an EBR? I'll buy another BMW or a Ducati


If done right, it would be an improved, race-winning EBR with more power, electronics, exhaust that didn't look like it was an afterthought etc.

Your 20K would be getting you one of the rarest, most unique superbikes on the planet. You still might be interested, but they don't need to sell to you or the vast majority of the motorcycling public. They need a fraction of a fraction of a fraction of a percent of motorcycle buyers to get started, and they do that by selling the uniqueness. That's how the original Buell started and it worked up until Harley bought them and sucked the life out of them.

In the '70s, BMW's and Ducatis were quirky and couldn't compete with Japanese bikes which had better performance, better reliability, lower prices broader dealer networks etc. But both brands focused on their unique characteristics and marketed to people who paid more for those unique characteristics until both companies grew to the point that they could compete more directly with larger volume bikes.

When you're selling fewer than 1000 hand-built bikes a year, you need to market to people who want a rare, unique, hand-built bike. You don't sell them at a loss hoping demand will eventually increase. That's what killed EBR... twice.

Scott
08-03-2017, 10:30 AM
Hell, Steve got me interested in the KTM: the 790 Duke. They have a hell of a promo video showing a rider ripping it up. That bike won't be released until late this year or early next. Just think if EBR had had something similar in their showrooms ~1 year ago.


I actually hadn't seen that bike. It is very interesting. I'm not a fan of the styling (I guess I'm just getting old, but it seems like bikes these days have way to many colors, sharp edges on bodywork etc.). I like simple, plain and not looking like it's trying too hard to look flashy.

Nemesis
08-05-2017, 01:59 AM
From most of the interviews with Erik that I have seen, he wasn't into the electronics like everyone else. Not only did he not have the money to dabble in R@D with ABS and bank angle tech but it almost felt like he didn't like that stuff and was only doing it for sales. Which is smart. I am more into the raw untamed feeling of a motorcycle than a bunch of buttons and sensors telling me to go slower. I love these Bikes I think with the right backer that just let Erik and his team fly with what they think will work, these Bikes would be world class.......

I agree and im the same.. But unfortunetly unless you're a very talented rider, these litre plus bikes will always be faster on the tracks with rider aids on....

Just have a look at the new bmw s1000rr competion bike...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8FS5GGnAgvw

1190SX
08-05-2017, 10:36 AM
I agree and im the same.. But unfortunetly unless you're a very talented rider, these litre plus bikes will always be faster on the tracks with rider aids on....

Just have a look at the new bmw s1000rr competion bike...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8FS5GGnAgvw


And even professional riders use rider aids to go faster now days. Its the future, just like in cars, get with the times or get left behind.

1190SX
08-05-2017, 10:48 AM
If done right, it would be an improved, race-winning EBR with more power, electronics, exhaust that didn't look like it was an afterthought etc.

Your 20K would be getting you one of the rarest, most unique superbikes on the planet. You still might be interested, but they don't need to sell to you or the vast majority of the motorcycling public. They need a fraction of a fraction of a fraction of a percent of motorcycle buyers to get started, and they do that by selling the uniqueness. That's how the original Buell started and it worked up until Harley bought them and sucked the life out of them.

In the '70s, BMW's and Ducatis were quirky and couldn't compete with Japanese bikes which had better performance, better reliability, lower prices broader dealer networks etc. But both brands focused on their unique characteristics and marketed to people who paid more for those unique characteristics until both companies grew to the point that they could compete more directly with larger volume bikes.

When you're selling fewer than 1000 hand-built bikes a year, you need to market to people who want a rare, unique, hand-built bike. You don't sell them at a loss hoping demand will eventually increase. That's what killed EBR... twice.


If it was a completely rethought and well thought out bike I might pay 20k. As it is now? Nope.

MakingPAIN
08-05-2017, 11:53 AM
I got my sx for $8800 bucks not 20 grand.. now a full carbon race bike with rider aids is a 20k bike to me even with a 6 year old motor design.

Hughlysses
08-05-2017, 12:43 PM
I guess my main question about electronic rider aids is why are you riding a motorcycle- to see how fast the bike can go or to see how fast you can go? No doubt they're not that far from a bike that would be completely self-controlling- then you could just sit there while it goes like Rossi.

zviadi
08-05-2017, 02:16 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4asCK8yamb0

Do you really need this bull****?

zviadi
08-05-2017, 02:22 PM
All the charm of such motorcycles as the EBR is that the rider himself can control the motorcycle. This is a motorcycle for streets, B-roads and amateur track riding. It is possible to show high results on R6 without any electronics. Is 1190RX worse than Yamaha?
For the serious race let the racing teams bother with top grade electronic devices - quickshifters, TC, anti-wheely etc. In addition to racing, this is not needed anywhere.
Unfortunately, the global trend is now such that at the forefront is the security that the manufacturer needs to achieve at any cost. To any nub could ride a powerful liter. Otherwise there will be no sales.

If we ever see Eric's products on sale, they will be equipped with all of the above electronic garbage to get certified and be admitted to sales. The price under such conditions will be very high, it is unlikely that such products will be bought if the producer does not provide good advertising and proper quality. Unfortunately, today the quality of its products is lame. For products of this price category, this is unacceptable. Should not bet on enthusiasts and fans only.
Eric can't survive alone, the only option is to join a large motoconcern.

han
08-05-2017, 08:24 PM
And even professional riders use rider aids to go faster now days. Its the future, just like in cars, get with the times or get left behind.

Pros use them to win and make money at all cost.Everyone else uses them because they are p*ssies who are too scared to ride it with training wheels.Too lazy to learn and too dumb to take it slow.I know countless guys who wont dare ride without aids on lol.Its pretty funnny.Guys riding around in b power modes 😂😂😂😂

1190SX
08-05-2017, 10:19 PM
Pros use them to win and make money at all cost.Everyone else uses them because they are p*ssies who are too scared to ride it with training wheels.Too lazy to learn and too dumb to take it slow.I know countless guys who wont dare ride without aids on lol.Its pretty funnny.Guys riding around in b power modes 


True.

1190SX
08-05-2017, 10:20 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4asCK8yamb0

Do you really need this bull****?


And you sir, are correct. That is bull****

1190SX
08-06-2017, 12:24 AM
Anyone else turn off TC on their bike?

Nemesis
08-06-2017, 12:58 AM
Do not use smileys it screws up what youve written lol

Nemesis
08-06-2017, 01:00 AM
Pros use them to win and make money at all cost.Everyone else uses them because they are p*ssies who are too scared to ride it with training wheels.Too lazy to learn and too dumb to take it slow.I know countless guys who wont dare ride without aids on lol.Its pretty funnny.Guys riding around in b power modes 

Hey they're YOUR friends lol...



Anyone else turn off TC on their bike?

It's never on.

zviadi
08-06-2017, 03:59 AM
Anyone else turn off TC on their bike?

Three seasons with "TC off". In rain too.

CMMagnussen
08-08-2017, 04:11 AM
The bike has traction control?

Mope
08-08-2017, 03:16 PM
Seems like this jumped off topic over the last page and a half, but EBR is still seeing suitors.........at least one quite recently.

zviadi
08-08-2017, 03:18 PM
The bike has traction control?

Yes. Speed tone ring on rear wheel.

Hughlysses
08-08-2017, 03:59 PM
Seems like this jumped off topic over the last page and a half, but EBR is still seeing suitors.........at least one quite recently.

Now THAT'S interesting!

:thumb:

Can you you tell us anything else?

EBRRider
08-08-2017, 04:11 PM
Anyone else turn off TC on their bike?

Always off. 1642

Mope
08-08-2017, 05:34 PM
Yea, nobody ever likes their discussions crapped on or leaked - and if we're honest, the chance that any negotiations end how we'd all like them to for a future EBR are slim.......but for the dreamers, there was a meeting with an option that's been kicked around on this board a couple weeks ago. I am not sure if I can say more than that! :)

1190SX
08-08-2017, 06:37 PM
Always off. 1642

:cheers:

oddball
08-08-2017, 06:43 PM
Interesting but considering how previous attempts were both secretive and pitiful that hope is very slim. Maybe BRP will snatch it, turn the 1190 into a paddle shift, auto clutch, servo shift, 3 wheel leaning superbike. 3 wheels is their thing. Looks like that auto clutch could be adapted easily from the original spyders.

Bombardier
Buell
Racing
Recreational
Products

BBRRP for short. :cool:

Subarubrat
08-10-2017, 12:17 PM
I hope Polaris decides to add a sport bike line and buys the EBR package, they have made an amazing bike with the Indian line.

ryandcramer
08-10-2017, 01:16 PM
Anyone else turn off TC on their bike?

i do, but I'm old school.

Hughlysses
08-10-2017, 04:28 PM
I hope Polaris decides to add a sport bike line and buys the EBR package, they have made an amazing bike with the Indian line.

At least a couple of EBR engineers (probably more) went to work at Polaris when EBR originally went into receivership.

Nemesis
08-10-2017, 11:16 PM
Always off. 1642


Needs wayyy more miles put on :P



Yea, nobody ever likes their discussions crapped on or leaked - and if we're honest, the chance that any negotiations end how we'd all like them to for a future EBR are slim.......but for the dreamers, there was a meeting with an option that's been kicked around on this board a couple weeks ago. I am not sure if I can say more than that! :)

Understandable sir, interesting to see how it pans out

Mike
08-11-2017, 11:54 AM
Yes...my bikes TC's been "off" since just before tripple digit miles. Currently am 29,984 miles. This includes rainy days on the way to work.



http://ebrforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=1642&d=1502226669&thumb=1

Mike

EBRRider
08-11-2017, 05:38 PM
Hey , Mike you get the same avg miles as I do . I am sure you did your valves a few times ,how far were they out ? at what miles did you do them ?

Unbound
08-13-2017, 11:05 AM
Anyone else turn off TC on their bike?

I have never ridden with TC. I find the ride much more enjoyable.

Unbound
08-13-2017, 11:26 AM
Hey , Mike you get the same avg miles as I do . I am sure you did your valves a few times ,how far were they out ? at what miles did you do them ?

Where at in CA are you?

Hughlysses
08-13-2017, 11:42 AM
There seems to be a persistent rumor on Facebook that Polaris is in negotiations to buy EBR.

Unbound
08-13-2017, 11:49 AM
There seems to be a persistent rumor on Facebook that Polaris is in negotiations to buy EBR.

Yeah, I posted a poll about because Ive seen this come up several times in the last month (all hearsay obviously).

Hughlysses
08-13-2017, 12:01 PM
I could live with an Indian-branded sportbike.

EBRRider
08-13-2017, 12:56 PM
Where at in CA are you?

Clovis , CA , Fresno ,

Mike
08-13-2017, 01:34 PM
EBRRider, Unbound -

I'm in SoCal, just west of Pomona, east of L.A.

Yes, done the valves a coupla times. My first valve check, none needed adjusting, second time, three, then this last time, none. I do my valve check during the "Christmas shutdown" from work. Not sure what to expect this time as I've been out of town for work most of the year, so the miles driven have been fairly low compared to a normal year.

Mike

EBRRider
08-13-2017, 02:52 PM
EBRRider, Unbound -

I'm in SoCal, just west of Pomona, east of L.A.

Yes, done the valves a coupla times. My first valve check, none needed adjusting, second time, three, then this last time, none. I do my valve check during the "Christmas shutdown" from work. Not sure what to expect this time as I've been out of town for work most of the year, so the miles driven have been fairly low compared to a normal year.

Mike

What I was hoping that you could do step x step instructional with pics, for all of us going to be doing sooners.

Mike
08-13-2017, 03:07 PM
I'm heading back out of town for an unknown amount of time...will be heading to the airport at 4am tomorrow, so, no, not at this point will I have time to do any realistic instructions. I'd think it's been done by others anyway. Take a look on the BadWeb.
You don't have the repair manual ?

Mike

EBRRider
08-13-2017, 03:11 PM
I will check out Badweb, no manual, only a owners manual on a stick. ,thx


https://docs.google.com/uc?id=0B5Dlv...xport=download (https://docs.google.com/uc?id=0B5DlvpMzcj9xWjY5WnljZm1lSm8&export=download)

Nemesis
08-13-2017, 10:37 PM
Always off. 1642


I'm heading back out of town for an unknown amount of time...will be heading to the airport at 4am tomorrow, so, no, not at this point will I have time to do any realistic instructions. I'd think it's been done by others anyway. Take a look on the BadWeb.
You don't have the repair manual ?

Mike


Do you work for ebr mike?

1190SX
08-14-2017, 05:12 PM
Don't think EBR had a Pomona division.

Subarubrat
08-17-2017, 08:53 PM
I was at a HD dealership this week, and I overheard a conversation between two employees that they had been to the HD HQ or what not for something and had seen the new HD sportbike. I doubt they bought the EBR IP, probably they will slap a fairing around a CVO and ask 3 times the price.

1190SX
08-17-2017, 08:58 PM
A harley sportbike? Did they make a cruiser that weighs under 600 lbs? That is impressive! Does it come with the sound system or will that be extra?

oddball
08-17-2017, 10:14 PM
They figured out how to chrome an XB? Or another variation of a Street? Return of the XR1200? Thought all the new stuff was always announced before sturgis or after the new year for a 'mid year' release?

1190SX
08-17-2017, 10:31 PM
Just need some laced wheels and a sound system...
1654

I heard they are going to shorten the wheel base so it takes corners like no other bike. Supposed to start racing in Moto GP too...Here is a preview:
1655

oddball
08-18-2017, 08:11 PM
That looks like "Hi-Riser" from "Wheelie and the Chopper Bunch" Hanna-Barbera 1974. lol

1190SX
08-18-2017, 09:37 PM
Shhhh!! Harley doesn't want you telling people they aren't doing anything new!

MakingPAIN
09-04-2017, 10:48 AM
Any more news on if another company is looking at EBR? I seen something somewhere about harley looking again but I can't find it again to verify?..

1190SX
09-04-2017, 10:52 AM
The rumor mill is hard at work, I continue to here these things. I think it is just gossip.

Nemesis
09-04-2017, 05:08 PM
Lol harley sales are down.


We'll see how they do with this years new range. Some bold moves, we'll see how they sell.

oddball
09-04-2017, 05:53 PM
I've seen claims that the new softails are selling as fast as they can put them on the floor.

1190SX
09-04-2017, 05:55 PM
Lol harley sales are down.


We'll see how they do with this years new range. Some bold moves, we'll see how they sell.

Does Harley sell different bikes in Australia? Or are you talking about those new red springs on the Street Rod for 2018?

1728


Must handle like a Duc with those springs.

Cooter
09-04-2017, 06:07 PM
They aren't Red. They are Fusion Apocalyptic Rouge meant to evoke the feeling of speed and freedom while keeping the style on the edge of futuristic wind gracefully flowing like the sands of eternity.

Or some such nonsense... Because they sure ain't for performance! :lame: welcome to 1934 H-D!

Cooter
09-04-2017, 06:14 PM
I've seen claims that the new softails are selling as fast as they can put them on the floor.

Yes! Everyone is talking about the new frames on those!. They are TUBES of METAL that are WELDED together! No Way!!:beat:

Seriously, mono-shock rear and upside down forks combined with a small single front disk and a 160 width front tire. Style with no function. Reminds me of that isle in Pep Boys that has all that plastic stick on stuff...

1190SX
09-04-2017, 06:14 PM
I'm still waiting for Harley to make some improvements on my bike....














And mine was made in 1964

1190SX
09-04-2017, 06:17 PM
Yes! Everyone is talking about the new frames on those!. They are TUBES of METAL that are WELDED together! No Way!!:beat:

Seriously, mono-shock rear and upside down forks combined with a small single front disk and a 160 width front tire. Style with no function. Reminds me of that isle in Pep Boys that has all that plastic stick on stuff...


You mean to tell me, that Harley used ELECTRICITY to connect pieces of metal and make a frame for a bike? Did I wake up in the year 2050?



I heard that the street rod can actually lift the front tire off the ground 3"! AND It can do 0-60 in 19 seconds! Thats a full 9 seconds faster than the Honda Grom! Unbelievable!

muleman
09-04-2017, 09:32 PM
Love my honda grom

1190SX
09-04-2017, 09:57 PM
Love my honda grom


No doubt, a incredible machine, but what would really make it would be putting an 1190cc Rotax motor in it.

Hughlysses
09-04-2017, 09:59 PM
Bill Melvin seems to be hinting that a scaled back EBR operation might continue:

https://mibiz.com/item/25077-melvin-translates-passion-for-motorsports-into-business-opportunities

MakingPAIN
09-05-2017, 10:51 AM
That would be epic if he did that. They were set for 5000 bikes a year . Now revamp it for only 700 or so.

Bruiser
09-05-2017, 12:04 PM
They should just keep building the 2014-17 SX/RX at low-medium volume for the next 15-20 years and it would become vintage/classic while they were still producing and refining it.

Look at the Volvo 240, that thing was nearly the same for 30 years and people loved it and still love it.

MakingPAIN
09-05-2017, 12:28 PM
look at the suzuki DR350 it was the same and only color changes for 15 years or something. still sells like a new platform every year it was made

Hughlysses
09-05-2017, 12:38 PM
Anything they can do to stay in business and continue providing spare parts will make me happy. If they resume and continue construction of the 1190 bikes, even better.

If they could somehow eek out enough funding to start producing the planned ~800cc parallel twin high performance middle weight bikes in the next few years, that'd be awesome.

Cooter
09-06-2017, 02:12 AM
So whats the difference with EBR making super low production real, legally recognized bikes... and OCC type chopper builders making 10X the amount of slapped together 'special constructions' like you or I could make in our garage and title the same way? It's really easy to get a MFG license.

Could EBR forgo the expense and red tape of the feds and the EPA by doing the same thing? Their profit margin would increase substantially and could sell bikes with their reputation (as the chopper people do). Feasable?

The biggest problem I see is the 1190 was slightly outdated in 2014, and terribly so now in 2017 as fast as this market moves. EBR would need a HUGE influx of cash just to build the electronics suite that performance buyers expect today. HP only gets you so far these days....

Bruiser
09-06-2017, 01:20 PM
That's why I think they should stop trying to keep up with the industry and just keep making the bike, it's such a solid and capable platform even without the modern tech and features of the competition that it's already a classic.

People don't ride CB750's in 2017 because they have any noteworthy technology

Hughlysses
09-06-2017, 03:17 PM
Adding ABS would open the European market to them, where sales were pretty good. They seem to have had the design for that well underway if not completed, so hopefully that could happen without huge investment.

If they keep the bike otherwise as-is, they should really market it that way- that this is a bike for real motorcyclists who don't need all that gadgetry. Hey, maybe they could even go back to analog gauges and get rid of the failure prone digital display.

Kid Thunder
09-06-2017, 03:39 PM
Amen to that.

1190SX
09-06-2017, 05:57 PM
That's why I think they should stop trying to keep up with the industry and just keep making the bike, it's such a solid and capable platform even without the modern tech and features of the competition that it's already a classic.

People don't ride CB750's in 2017 because they have any noteworthy technology


They ride them because they are hipsters and were born 20 years after the CB750 was made.

MakingPAIN
09-06-2017, 08:14 PM
Old bikes rule:hail:

Cooter
09-06-2017, 09:29 PM
Real bikes = Kickstarts and spokes!
Petcocks with reserve, center stands, chrome, big plastic knob steering dampers... I might even be convinced to say front drum brakes, but I already conceded to tubes:lol:

I agree 1000% with you guys. Keep EBR as a B.adass A.nalog S.uperbike T.hat A.lways R.elies on D.rivers S.kill.

Woo Hoo!

1190SX
09-06-2017, 09:38 PM
A real experience. Just you, the bike, and the road.

Cooter
09-07-2017, 07:35 AM
Fun Fact:
The New Bmw's have a VDS on them. A Vertical Down Sensor.

Yep, a little light turns on if you fall over. You would think the pain and sparks would be enough to let a person know, but now you need a light? Heck, it probably uplinks to the Bimmer satellite to schedule a service appointment and calls your insurance adjuster for you.

We need this stuff??

MakingPAIN
09-07-2017, 09:52 AM
Did I catch a "B.A.S.T.A.R.D" in there cooter? Are you calling from a walkie talkie? Lol.

And air cooled fins with rubber dampers between them!!!
Could we also add, dual rear shocks. But not Harley because they are a little behind on times. They just figured out that six gears is a nice feature. Next they might find out common pin cranks suck. Lol

1190SX
09-07-2017, 01:11 PM
Fun Fact:
The New Bmw's have a VDS on them. A Vertical Down Sensor.

Yep, a little light turns on if you fall over. You would think the pain and sparks would be enough to let a person know, but now you need a light? Heck, it probably uplinks to the Bimmer satellite to schedule a service appointment and calls your insurance adjuster for you.

We need this stuff??

So if a neutral indicator is an "idiot light" what would the vertical down sensor be? I'd like to get an ejection seat with parachute for my bike soon, if these things get any faster it will be a requirement.

Cooter
09-07-2017, 05:50 PM
"B.A.S.T.A.R.D.S." technically. And I know who we are!:)

I got to watch the Alpinestar demo of their airbag jacket up in Moneterey for the races. Impressive! Still expensive, but really not crazy considering...
I bet we're all wearing one in 5 years. I'm ok being responsible for my own safety using my own limbs and digits, but THAT is tech I will get behind, every time:up:

oddball
09-08-2017, 03:08 PM
Vertical down sensor? Hmm, it could have an app for your phone to alert you anytime it goes down. Picture, your in the bar talking up some chick and the VD alert goes off. LOL:rolleyes:

Scott
09-15-2017, 12:39 PM
So whats the difference with EBR making super low production real, legally recognized bikes... and OCC type chopper builders making 10X the amount of slapped together 'special constructions' like you or I could make in our garage and title the same way? It's really easy to get a MFG license.

Could EBR forgo the expense and red tape of the feds and the EPA by doing the same thing? Their profit margin would increase substantially and could sell bikes with their reputation (as the chopper people do). Feasable?

The biggest problem I see is the 1190 was slightly outdated in 2014, and terribly so now in 2017 as fast as this market moves. EBR would need a HUGE influx of cash just to build the electronics suite that performance buyers expect today. HP only gets you so far these days....

I believe they can up to a point and if they grow beyond that, they can justify the cost.

The big problem I see is they can't survive selling 100 1190RX's per year at $10,000 per bike.

At low volumes like that, they're going to have to charge something like $30,000 per bike. And that price isn't crazy for an extremely low volume, unique bike (look at bikes like Motus or Confederate). The problem is, it will be very tough to charge $30,000 for bike that was selling for $10,000.

But I think there is a route they can take. There were rumors prior to shutdown of a forced induction bike (either turbo or supercharger), and I think that could be an ideal solution to their problem.

The 1190RS could handle with the best bikes out there, but it couldn't compete on power. A forced induction variation could compete on power and be truly unique and justify a $30,000 asking price. The wouldn't be able to race, of course, but at this point, they don't have the resources to race, so I think they should focus on beating the Superbike competition by breaking the rules those bikes have to stick to to continue to race.

And don't just stop at forced induction, increase displacement, perform other engine tweaks not allowed by WSBK rules, and use carbon fiber to keep weight down (I don't believe WSBK rules allow carbon fiber fairings for example).

If EBR can use the WSBK rules against the bikes they'll be competing with in the magazine shoot-outs, they can gain an advantage. And the magazines don't care how they get there as long as the package performs.

Even against something like the H2R, they won't be able to compete on power, but put them on the track together and the supercharged EBR will have the the weight and handling advantage and could likely beat the H2R around a tight track.

A bike like that could take advantage of existing parts and tooling while also having a whole new unique personality that would be like nothing else out there and could, if done right, outperform the competition.

At least that's the way I'd go until they can build back up to doing more mainstream bikes.

Cooter
09-15-2017, 06:51 PM
I think you touched on the answer. Erik=Racing, and couldn't compete unless it was a 'production' bike.

Scott
09-16-2017, 08:31 AM
I think you touched on the answer. Erik=Racing, and couldn't compete unless it was a 'production' bike.

I think they've gone through a number of stages. Back when they were Buell, the bikes were SO different and SO quirky, they needed to put them on the race-track to demonstrate that those wonky designs actually worked.

When they became EBR, they took a much more standard path - and with enough time and money, I think it would have worked.

At this point, I don't think they can go that route. To be what EBR was trying to be, they'd need a minimum $50 million investment to slowly build to the point they can compete against the best in the world using the same homologation rules and technical restrictions as everyone else.

They've already proven the 1190RS can at least stay on the track with the other bikes, but getting that last little bit to actually win in that group would likely require 5 years of intense effort and investment.

So I say regroup to something more like a Buell mindset of creating something truly different - and WSBK racing rules have given them a gift they need to take advantage of. All "superbikes" currently look and perform very similarly with very similar constructions. You can have a 1200 cc liquid-cooled, naturally aspirated twin, or you can have a 1000 cc liquid-cooled four - but nothing else exists (except for outliers like the H2R) because the race rules don't allow it.

Ducati has started to take advantage of that with their 1300, but I think EBR could go much farther.

Just like they showed the potential of a Harley lump when there were no restrictions, they could show the potential of a V-Twin with no restrictions. a 1350 cc super-charged V-twin, for example could be packaged in the current 1190RS frame without stretching things or making the bike much heavier, and that engine could be to the current superbike engines what the Buell engine was to the Sportsers.

Eventually, they'd get back to racing and create bikes that fit those restrictions, but I think those restrictions should be put on the shelf until they can shake things up and create a bike with much more appeal to enthusiasts who want a beast rather than something that's part of the pack.

I think a bike that could be touted as the fastest bike in the world would do more to put them on the map and get them on their feet than being mid-field in a racing crowd (as they've already done). And that bike could provide the sales and resources they need to get back into racing 5 years from now.

Cooter
09-16-2017, 09:04 AM
I wholeheartedly agree. It's what made Lamborghini :lol:
More kids have the H2R on their wall than any rider besides Rossi or Marquez.

MakingPAIN
09-16-2017, 10:34 AM
I agree also. Now think, a bike like you said for people like us that just want something beast-like to scare us when we least expect it. And the parallel twin with smaller displacement for the newer riders or just a rider. Hit both markets, look at the hideous fz07 people love it. Brakes suck, forks suck. Motor kinda sucks. Triple tree sucks. And people love it because it's different and can be ridin by anyone with a heart beat.

oddball
09-16-2017, 11:26 AM
Scott,
Your described bike to me sounds like it could have been done a decade ago. Merged the XBRR and the turbo projects back in the Buell days. Hell merge in the M8 4 valve heads and buy the supercharger from Kawasaki. Tying into the XBRR primary drive. Ah to dream. Won't happen, but it would be different and interesting. Unlike the boring results from other manufacturers after a decade of stagnation.

If they'd had the kind of money you suggest available when starting EBR it would have been better spent on the parallel twin instead of the helicon. Right now it would have placed them in a strong market position against all the bikes sitting in the price range once occupied by the XB's.

Scott
09-16-2017, 08:59 PM
I agree also. Now think, a bike like you said for people like us that just want something beast-like to scare us when we least expect it. And the parallel twin with smaller displacement for the newer riders or just a rider. Hit both markets, look at the hideous fz07 people love it. Brakes suck, forks suck. Motor kinda sucks. Triple tree sucks. And people love it because it's different and can be ridin by anyone with a heart beat.


it would have been better spent on the parallel twin instead of the helicon.

I'm a huge fan of simple, lightweight parallel-twins like the Ninja 650 and BMW F 800 GT and the new KTM 790 has me drooling, and that's why it felt like a kick in the gut when I heard EBR had something like that in the works. My personal, selfish hope is to one day be able to buy a bike like that from them.

But while I would personally prefer that bike to the bike I described above, I think the bike I described above is how they get there. They need something like what I described to make a name for themselves and become a viable company and once they're a viable company, they can make lower priced, higher volume, less crazy bikes.

But I believe step-one has to be a high-dollar, low-volume bike that will offer something unique enough to excite people and tempt a small number of people to pay top-dollar.

Scott
09-16-2017, 09:22 PM
And I believe racing rules allow 750 cc twins to go up against 600 cc fours and 700 cc triples, so a 750 twin out there shaking things up in that class would be cool.

Hughlysses
09-16-2017, 11:28 PM
On a possibly related note, LAP posted this to Facebook this week:

1736

I'd think if they were going to close up EBR completely in the near future, they'd just keep cutting prices until everything was gone.

Cooter
09-17-2017, 09:55 AM
I thought I heard on here the dealers already had the good parts and LAP had been selling blems??

MakingPAIN
09-17-2017, 12:05 PM
If LAP was smart they could make a small store front online and call it another business venture, and sell EBR parts. They know who makes all the parts for EBR. Just keep them flowing in and sell.

You know Bill is a motorcycle guy he says

Hughlysses
09-17-2017, 01:42 PM
I thought I heard on here the dealers already had the good parts and LAP had been selling blems??

I think that was true of body parts, but a lot of the other stuff was perfectly good. It's an interesting move on their part. It'll be interesting to see what happens next.

Oh yea, EBR changed the cover photo on their Facebook page this morning:

1737

It's interesting that they did this. Maybe they built a few more 2017's now that most of the backlog of bikes is cleared?

EBRRider
09-17-2017, 04:28 PM
Bulk orders & offers considered first, ASAP. Make offers on Excel spreadsheet.


http://www.liquidap.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/08/Public-Liquidation-Parts-08.14.2017.xlsx

Cooter
09-17-2017, 06:44 PM
I really like that flat color:smoke:

seems like they'd make more money selling parts vs. a complete RX at $10k...

GABuellDawg
09-22-2017, 03:13 PM
Im gonna have to put in my $.02... Since my work has taken me all over the southern U.S., Ive met a lot of riders. For EBR to be successful they are going to need a @700cc bike, sport and naked, to cater to the younger and price conscious market that is huge right now! These types do not care about a 185+mph bike that costs $17k-$20k. All of these riders that Ive met and talked to like their bikes because of price, rideability, looks and of all things...the sound! Obviously, keep producing the liter bikes and possibly have an upgraded version that can compete with the likes of the R1M or even the H2 but strictly building a high end bike will definitely not sell very many units. Lastly, EBR could take the SX and have a dual-sport model with the proper transmission and body style changes, adding in the new technology and that quickly emerging market would definitely be a money maker. Hell, design a super-motard and the world would go nuts! Every rider Ive talked to under the age of 40 wants one!

:cheers:

Hughlysses
09-22-2017, 08:30 PM
According to several reputable sources, EBR had a middleweight ~800cc twin on the drawing board and was ready to start building prototypes when the original closure came. Erik mentioned it being priced under $10k in a Cycle World interview. They understood what was needed and were ready to build it. If Hero hadn't jerked the rug out from under them, or even if they'd waited another 6 months before they pulled the plug, things might be a LOT different now.

StrangeTrip
09-23-2017, 10:24 AM
Hell, design a super-motard and the world would go nuts! Every rider Ive talked to under the age of 40 wants one!
:cheers:[/QUOTE]

Hell, I'm 58, and I want one!

Scott
04-05-2018, 07:39 AM
I just saw this: https://www.motorcyclenews.com/news/2018/april/ola-stenegard-joins-indian/

"BMW’s top designer joins Indian and promises a new range of perception-changing models"

“A race bike is probably the best way forward because Indian have never done a supersport bike. There’s no heritage to fall back on, no icon to refer to – but maybe it’s a V-twin and you go into that kind of territory and the engine provides the heritage.”


So maybe Polaris/Indian is serious about Sport-bikes (they were apparently involved in bidding for Ducati).

I was hoping EBR would come back, but maybe a serious sport-bike from Indian is the next best thing. Though if they are interested in going that direction, I don't know why they wouldn't have spent a few dollars to buy EBR if, for no better reason than to see what they could make of the scraps - engine etc.

Doug Porcaro
04-05-2018, 04:55 PM
Call me a pessimist but I don't think an Indian sportbike will be successful especially from a BMW designer.

Scott
04-05-2018, 07:49 PM
Call me a pessimist but I don't think an Indian sportbike will be successful especially from a BMW designer.

I think it depends. If they try to make the FTR1200 (which is cool as its own thing ) into a sport-bike, I agree. It's too heavy, too under-powered, and the chassis will never compete with world-class superbikes. If they're willing to hire the right people and spend enough money, and start with a clean-sheet, there's no reason they can't make their own S1000RR.

But, with him even suggesting in the interview that it might be a V-Twin, I think it would be crazy to not buy the EBR designs and start with a bike that's 95% there already for far less money (based on the $500,000 minimum bid LAP seemed to be looking for) than it would take to develop from scratch.

It would be a little frustrating and baffling if they do create their own V-Twin sport bike when EBR was there for the taking as a cheap, cool starting point that has some racing experience, American heritage, built-in fan-base etc.

Who knows, maybe they'll even reconsider and and buy EBR as part of this apparent new interest in a sport-bike.

... or it could be a whole lot of nothing and they might do nothing more than continue to make the same cruisers they've always made with minor styling/performance revisions. I'll admit they've suckered me in the past and while they keep hinting thy're going to make a performance bike, they've gotten my hopes up only to unveil another cruiser on multiple occasions already.

Even the FTR 1200 isn't real yet, but the day they unveil a production bike, they'll have the best American bike on the market (by sad default).

Nemesis
04-06-2018, 01:03 AM
Call me a pessimist but I don't think an Indian sportbike will be successful especially from a BMW designer.


If he had anything to do with the bmw s1000rr i beg to differ...

MakingPAIN
04-06-2018, 07:45 AM
I love how Buell boys like us will just sit and imagine logic in this world.. buy EBR that’s got a rich racing history and good base bike to work off and make better. And after that with the money of Indian in the r&d coffers, take on the worlddddd hahahahahaha evil laugh... but seriously no one will buy them. It is just the way it is..

MakingPAIN
04-06-2018, 08:06 AM
Oh yeah p.s. Indian, Moto-Guzzi, harley, and all those retro wanna be overpriced bikes will soon be gone. I am of the younger generation and no one wants one of those big ugly bikes. Cruisers are better made and cheaper from other companies.

They will die off...

Scott
04-06-2018, 09:01 AM
Oh yeah p.s. Indian, Moto-Guzzi, harley, and all those retro wanna be overpriced bikes will soon be gone. I am of the younger generation and no one wants one of those big ugly bikes. Cruisers are better made and cheaper from other companies.

They will die off...

I'm not sure how much the younger generation has to do with it. I'm 53 and I've never had any interest in a big, heavy cruiser. I've been a fan of Erik Buell since the '80s because he was the first (and still pretty much only) one to make an American bike that was fun to ride.

At this point, with EBR gone, I think my best hope is Indian (though I'm also keeping a watch on Zero and some of the other electric upstarts to see where those go). Unfortunately Indian (and Polaris before them) seem to constantly tease without going anywhere. The FTR 1200 isn't a cruiser (if they just f***ing build it), and now hiring a BMW guy who says: “A race bike is probably the best way forward because Indian have never done a supersport bike. There’s no heritage to fall back on, no icon to refer to – but maybe it’s a V-twin and you go into that kind of territory and the engine provides the heritage.” Makes me think Indian is considering making bikes I might want.

1960


Maybe I am just a fool because it seems I've been waiting my whole life with very little to show for it, but I believe there is a market for an American sport-bike and I'm baffled that there's not a more aggressive effort to go after that market.

MakingPAIN
04-06-2018, 10:35 AM
Mr Scott, I am 30, and I agree with a lot of what you say but that Indian in that photo would be trash on the track. And even on the road. This is the whole thing with crappy American bike builders, the forks are dated way dated, the brakes are small and crap, swing arm looks like my brother made it in the dirt lot in the back 40... this bike would be a bomb right on release date. And Indian would charge Indian prices and another one bites the dust to the hands of time.

Buell was the only guy that has the balls to build a real bike to compete. Harley and Indian want to keep their heritage or whatever they want to call obsolete parts on a bike. They will never build a world class bike. It’s not in the cards. Polaris would not let mr bmw build the bike he wants. He will build the bike THEY want...

Scott
04-06-2018, 01:31 PM
The FTR may not be an ideal bike. But it would be the best motorcycle Indian (or Polaris) had ever made. It would be better than anything Harley (excluding Buell) had ever made, and it would be a step in the right direction.

Will Indian take that step, and if they take that step, will they they take additional steps beyond that? That remains to be seen. You seem skeptical, but I remain optimistic that they're not as intransigent as Harley.

Scott
04-06-2018, 01:32 PM
... and personally, I'd love to take that bike out to decide for myself how good of a street-bike it is. It looks fun if nothing else.

Hughlysses
04-10-2018, 01:25 PM
I don't hold out much hope for a revived EBR, but Erik has NOT retired: http://ebrforum.com/showthread.php?1647-Erik-is-back-in-the-game-Vanguardspark-Motorcycles