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mbfj40
03-13-2017, 11:02 AM
A question for consideration. I have a programmable ECM on the way from IDS to better tune the bike for the occasional track day. I know I can "secondary delete" safely with the IDS but I street drive as well and am not liking the extra loudness of leaving the secondary off 100% of the time. I know that the secondary muffler has one of the tubes as a resonator for mid-range or drivability or what not. But it is clearly not in play with the secondary-delete, and everyone seems to like it.
So..........
In concert with the IDS ECM, I was thinking about modifying the secondary for the resonator pipe to be open for both pipes to exhaust. So it would be like the dual open on the secondary-delete, except that it would all go through the secondary for a little less noise. I've heard a comment or two from others who have done the same and were happy, but I've got no specifics from them.
I would probably look to buy someone's take off secondary for modifications and keep my original for swap back to stock if ever needed.
Soooooo.... what's the thoughts?

Mike

EBRRider
03-13-2017, 12:24 PM
Good question , Mike , you are just north of me , Iam in Fresno.

d_adams
03-13-2017, 12:37 PM
It's called "quarter wave tuning" and it's specific to this bike. Sounds travel at one speed, gas at another, but they do interact with each other. Reversion is what happens, so the sound wave from one pulse hits the actual gas wave from another. Timing is everything. If you plan to pursue it, I'd suggest getting a dual wideband O2 sensor setup and plan on spending a LOT of time (and possibly money) tuning it. I won't go into full detail, the information is out there online, you just have to weed through it or go to school and learn it like I did. Engineers come up with some really nifty stuff on occasion, this was one of those things. Try getting an 1199 ducati to get 50+ mpg and still put down 185 hp at the crank, I'd bet money against that happening.

mbfj40
03-13-2017, 02:04 PM
I understand the quarter wave resonance tuning 100%. My question is that if there is a performance gain by doing a secondary delete with proper tuning, could I, with proper tuning see a performance increase (perhaps not as pronounced as the secondary delete) by still using a modified secondary to keep the db increase to minimum.
Obviously the secondary delete with tips completely eliminate the quarter wave tuning. So if there is no gain other than noise why bother other than weight reduction? Clearly the secondary keeps EPA noise levels in check and the quarter wave would help street drivability. Perhaps the delete and tips only add on the top of the rpm range and would only benefit at the track leaving a big hole in the midrange? Is that the case?
Also was planning a full dyno mapping for whatever ends up on the bike

d_adams
03-13-2017, 04:21 PM
The secondary delete kit nets only a few hp at best at any given rpm. No losses that I'm aware of though, other than fuel mileage will suffer, possibly 15 mpg or more but that all depends on how you ride the bike.
The exhaust as a whole unit is designed to meet epa regs for noise and fueling. Not knowing exactly what you plan to modify inside the primary can leaves way too much on the table to speculate about. It's a helmholtz resonator setup, so altering it will have drastic effects.

mbfj40
03-13-2017, 07:09 PM
So do the secondary delete w/tips also lose 15 or more mpg?

d_adams
03-14-2017, 11:26 AM
It all depends on how you ride it. If I get 30-35 mpg out of mine, I'm doing pretty good. I do run it hard though. Can't lean it for shnizzle, but I do run it.

mbfj40
03-14-2017, 11:59 AM
I'm not too far off that milage with the secondary in place. Was just looking to take advantagem (if any) of the secondary delete and proper tuning, but just have the now dual tips exit through the secondary like a two into one to drop the db a little. If there's no advantage, it's not worth the effort.

mbfj40
03-25-2017, 10:33 AM
With no more advice on this project, Is there a secondary muffler out there on someones shelf that can be had inexpensively to experiment with?

86bgn
04-04-2017, 12:27 PM
With no more advice on this project, Is there a secondary muffler out there on someones shelf that can be had inexpensively to experiment with?

I am curious about this too....

I have a ECM for removing the secondary, but when I put the stock stuff back on, I know it is stronger in the mid-range. I thought about putting on the Race ECM and leaving the secondary muffler, but when i asked if anyone had tried that, all i got back was why. Personally i like the bike better with the stock set up, the mid-range feels stronger, and it does not create unwanted attention from the po-po's

If i could have the secondary muffler, with the race ECM, i think that would be a pretty sweet combo....

mbfj40
04-04-2017, 01:08 PM
Yep... Not a fan of loud for no reason

buell-fan
04-04-2017, 07:20 PM
I am curious about this too....

I have a ECM for removing the secondary, but when I put the stock stuff back on, I know it is stronger in the mid-range. I thought about putting on the Race ECM and leaving the secondary muffler, but when i asked if anyone had tried that, all i got back was why. Personally i like the bike better with the stock set up, the mid-range feels stronger, and it does not create unwanted attention from the po-po's

If i could have the secondary muffler, with the race ECM, i think that would be a pretty sweet combo....

No reason not to run the secondary can delete tune with the secondary can in place. It would be a bit richer of a tune probably. Because that is an easy change on the dyno, it would be interesting to compare the differences of the two tunes on a stock exhaust platform.

qurtrn10
04-05-2017, 11:57 PM
Not sure if this helps.
http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y109/WilliamWalker/photo-23_zps4adwb7it.jpg (http://s4.photobucket.com/user/WilliamWalker/media/photo-23_zps4adwb7it.jpg.html)

mbfj40
04-06-2017, 11:15 AM
Nope,
The quarter wave tuning gets thrown out the window when you do a secondary delete. And yet the Finishing kit is promoted for better performance and it drops the 1/4 wave, but it's too loud for me. I was looking at gutting the secondary muffler and putting it on in place of the Finishing tips for a little extra sound reduction. I know all about the resonance tuning of the stock pipe and it's enhancement on mid-range. But it's clearly not being used on ANY of the performance (track days in my case) systems like the factorys finishing kit, the Dean Adams or the factorys racing HMF. Generally a (properly tuned) free-er flowing exhaust has the potential to make the best power, but often with a big dose of loud. Perhaps all these "high performance" exhausts suck in the mid-range compared to stock? And only offer HP gains at redline?? Hmmm? Pehaps the gains of freeing up the back pressure (and tuning for it) are not enough to overcome the loss of the Resonance tuning gains...

d_adams
04-06-2017, 02:03 PM
Nope,
Perhaps all these "high performance" exhausts suck in the mid-range compared to stock? And only offer HP gains at redline?? Hmmm? Pehaps the gains of freeing up the back pressure (and tuning for it) are not enough to overcome the loss of the Resonance tuning gains...


Ahh, nope. No less than 75 ft/lbs anywhere (3000 rpm) with a peak of 95 ft/lbs (roughly 8k rpm) at the wheel. Midrange is improved if anything, although it's tough to tell since it makes more power everywhere. I've also determined mine is now definitely spinning the rim inside the tire, the balance marks are off by about 12-14" from where they were when it was new. Roughly 600 miles on the clock so far. I need to re-mark the rim so I know how much it's moving next time I ride it. Tape would do the trick I think, with a sharpie marker indicating where it starts at again.

mbfj40
04-06-2017, 08:56 PM
Excellent!
Clearly a finishing kit alone will not be able to compete with that. But if a finishing kits proper tuning and reduced back pressure can also provide an increase, maybe an opened up secondary will not kill all the supposed gains that the finishing kit is supposed to provide but still be able to bring the db's down. Halfway between the open tips and full stock would be what I'm shooting for. .....

qurtrn10
04-06-2017, 09:15 PM
Nope,
The quarter wave tuning gets thrown out the window when you do a secondary delete. And yet the Finishing kit is promoted for better performance and it drops the 1/4 wave, but it's too loud for me. I was looking at gutting the secondary muffler and putting it on in place of the Finishing tips for a little extra sound reduction. I know all about the resonance tuning of the stock pipe and it's enhancement on mid-range. But it's clearly not being used on ANY of the performance (track days in my case) systems like the factorys finishing kit, the Dean Adams or the factorys racing HMF. Generally a (properly tuned) free-er flowing exhaust has the potential to make the best power, but often with a big dose of loud. Perhaps all these "high performance" exhausts suck in the mid-range compared to stock? And only offer HP gains at redline?? Hmmm? Pehaps the gains of freeing up the back pressure (and tuning for it) are not enough to overcome the loss of the Resonance tuning gains...

I meant that I hoped it might help you see the design of the inside of the resonator to help plan out your design. I know you're going away from the 1/4 wave. Sounds like an interesting project.

d_adams
04-07-2017, 06:13 AM
Some friendly advice. If you plan to pursue this, get a programmable ecm, dual wideband controller, a small but fast laptop and a wad of cash to pay for the time and tuning, otherwise you're just wasting time.

mbfj40
04-07-2017, 09:48 AM
As already noted, I have the programmable ECM. And have the time, $$ and experienced facility for a full dyno work up with wideband for both cyl.
thanks
though

1190SX
04-09-2017, 01:10 PM
Yep... Not a fan of loud for no reason

I have Deans system, that being said, I wouldn't say it's "loud for no reason". It does have substantial weight savings as well as performance increases. Whether the two are inseparable is up for debate, but it seems to be the popular way to free up more power. I do, however, like the idea of an attempt to make the same power increase while keeping the stock exhaust and noise level to a minimum if possible. I was considering this, but decided I didn't want to spend the time and money on tuning and dyno time. There are definitely gains to be made without even modifying the stock setup. Therefore, you would need to first establish a baseline tune to show the effectiveness of your modifications. I do have take off exhaust from my SX with virtually no miles on it. I would be open to letting it go under the right circumstances. I'd give you the exhaust for you to do your testing, then (the big if) once you have it all ironed out and can show you have gained significant performance you give me a copy of the tune and the frankenstein exhaust. The downside, if any, is you destroy my exhaust.

mbfj40
04-09-2017, 06:15 PM
You're correct of course that the Deans is not loud for no reason. And clearly no amount of tinkering will get past the primary's CAT and weight. In my world I choose not to have loud 100% of the time on the street when the wide open benifits are really only going to 10 or 20% of the time on a canyon or every third weekend for a trackday. If the finishing kit free's up some power or response by basicly cutting the back pressure in half with two exhaust tips, perhaps I can cut a little bit of the noise out by extending them to an open secondary with a single exit without killing all the finishing kit gains. Happy to share maps if it shows any promise.

MakingPAIN
04-10-2017, 11:42 AM
If you get a good tune for that set up please share it ...