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Hughlysses
09-23-2016, 09:10 AM
Posted this morning:

PRESS RELEASE - EBR Motorcycles; Looking Ahead

East Troy, WI – EBR Motorcycles (Erik Buell Racing) announces the release of their 2017 model year American Sportbikes and progress with the rebuilding of the iconic motorcycle brand.

“It has been an amazing summer since the new EBR was launched. You can imagine the challenges restructuring the new company, but we have made really nice progress building our base for 2017 to launch this week,” said Bill Melvin, owner of EBR. “Our dealers have had nice success selling bikes this summer and we have many new ones coming on. Our quality is continuously improving, our supplier relationships established, and now we are looking towards the future. This fall we have something ‘Quick, Dark, and Low’ in the works that should be exciting for urban street riders, and we are making real progress on expanding the range of models of the 1190 platform, as well as developing and delivering accessories that our EBR riders want. There is a bright future for EBR, and as part of that work is proceeding on a sub-$10k platform for 2018.”

EBR Motorcycles has many exciting updates that will be seen soon. The 2017 models hit the showrooms this week. EBR plans to attend the International Motorcycle Shows in Long Beach, California; New York, New York; Dallas, Texas; and Chicago, Illinois. Show visitors will get to see and learn more about the 2017 models. EBR also will show off selected upcoming 2017 ˝ & 2018 model prototypes at different shows. EBR Apparel will launch within weeks with clothing celebrating the brand, and the team continues international racing as EBR Splitlath with Shelina Moreda at the helm. Along with new products, EBR is reviewing applications for their new Global Sales Director to support and grow EBR’s dealer base organically and through strategic partnerships.

“It’s a great time to ride the only American Sportbike, designed by Erik Buell, and we encourage patriotic Americans to meet these new EBR dealers for a test ride,” said Steve Smith, CEO of EBR. “Of course we had some bumps over the last year, but the road is looking pretty smooth now. It’s exciting to see growth into our next steps and exciting that we can help support the Buell Nation of enthusiasts and riders.”

Dealers, Global Distributors, and riders looking for information on the EBR lineup can visit www.EBR.com or EBR Motorcycles on Facebook.

Scott
09-23-2016, 10:25 AM
Nice!! Sub $10,000 platform? I'm guessing it's a detuned version of the current bikes and not a completely new bike, but we'll see.

A shorter stroke, 900 cc version at a tempting price would be pretty cool and help do what they really need - move bikes and get established.

This is the 6 month point since they restarted in March, and every day they can keep the lights on just makes them stronger and stronger. If they can make it to September 2017, I think they'll be here to stay.

Scott
09-23-2016, 10:27 AM
And I'm guessing the "quick, dark and low" might be a new version of the City X, which sounds cool.

MegaFighterX
09-23-2016, 05:48 PM
I can't wait to see what they're doing!

zviadi
09-24-2016, 06:59 AM
Good news. I hope they will not forget about 1190 AX...

Scott
09-24-2016, 07:10 AM
I saw some rumors on Facebook about turbos. That would be a cool way to give the spec-sheet racers something to chew on without requiring a complete redesign.

Personally, I'm fine with the power of the current bike (or less on a smaller, lighter bike), but an insane performance variation is the kind of thing that would get them the kind of attention they need.

They aren't likely to have a serious racing team for a while, so there's no reason to stick strictly to the racing limitations, so make an H2R type bike to get some attention now and continue selling and refining the 1190 RX, so it will be ready to race when they're on their feet and have the money.

zviadi
09-24-2016, 07:23 AM
Turbo or supercharger?
In any case, such bike not keep in 10 k$. Selling price of H2R is 50,000 GBP, possible company Kawasaki sells these bikes at a loss as Volkswagen sells Bugatti Veyron. Veyron prime cost circa 5 millions $.
EBR will not be able to carry out such a project, and such dumping. No need to compare a small firm and concerns.

Hughlysses
09-24-2016, 08:25 AM
The press release mentions 2017 models (to be shown next week), "2017-1/2" models, and 2018 models. It also says the sub-$10k bike will be a 2018 model. In one interview shortly after EBR went into receivership, Erik mentioned that they had a more-mainstream, less-expensive model in the works that was reasonably close to being production-ready that would REALLY impress people. I think that's what we'll see in 2018.

Scott
09-24-2016, 12:45 PM
Turbo or supercharger?
In any case, such bike not keep in 10 k$. Selling price of H2R is 50,000 GBP, possible company Kawasaki sells these bikes at a loss as Volkswagen sells Bugatti Veyron. Veyron prime cost circa 5 millions $.
EBR will not be able to carry out such a project, and such dumping. No need to compare a small firm and concerns.

I wouldn't "me too" what Kawasaki did with the H2R. I'd basically find ways to increase power on the basic engine using the best combination of non-race-legal components - stronger cams, pistons etc., increased displacement and forced induction (either turbo or super depending on what seems to work best).

Do that to increase power but maintain other components to minimize cost and weight increase. I wouldn't try to compete with the H2R on top-end. My goal would be a bike that I could sell for approx. $25K (at a profit) that would outperform any other Superbike out there (except maybe the H2R, though I'd want something that can out-handle the H2R).

I think most people would agree that the EBR's are among the best-handling big-bikes on the planet, but they can't compete with the inline-fours on power. So increase that power without altering the weight and handling (much) and you've got a bike from a tiny manufacturer in East Troy that could outperform the best performing bikes on the planet.

And there are two details of Buell history we should keep in mind. The Harley Buells were all about taking an engine that had no place in a sport-bike and using creative methods to get more performance out of that engine and bike than was sane. And that was eith a Harley engine. What could be possible if that same basic concept was applied to a bike that started as a world-class sport-bike instead of a Harley?

And the final detail. I remember hearing that the hole in the left side of the XB frame:
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Was there because a turbo was planned but never came to be.

I'm not saying any of this will actually happen, but there are some intriguing possibilities, and if I was trying to set myself apart from the competition and put EBR on the map, I'd be seriously looking into it.

Scott
09-24-2016, 01:08 PM
The press release mentions 2017 models (to be shown next week), "2017-1/2" models, and 2018 models. It also says the sub-$10k bike will be a 2018 model. In one interview shortly after EBR went into receivership, Erik mentioned that they had a more-mainstream, less-expensive model in the works that was reasonably close to being production-ready that would REALLY impress people. I think that's what we'll see in 2018.

If I had to guess (based on common sense and things we know), I'd expect:

1. The 2017 1/2 model will be a new City X SG Dark with hand-guards, lowered suspension and some slightly revised bodywork.

2. The 2018 Models will add ABS ( for sale in Europe - I notice that all the 2017s say "For US Sale Only") and the sub $10K model will be a lower-displacement version of the current bikes (and I'd expect the current bikes to go back up a little in price once they have a lower-cost option).

I would love to see a Hastur-type middle-weight, and I think they're working on that and I suspect that will be one of the "prototypes" we'll be seeing, but a whole new bike with unique components like that seems like it would cost too much to develop and and bring to production for EBR right now. I think they need to focus on selling existing bikes and bikes based on existing designs for the next few years until they can get to the point they're consistently selling several thousand bikes a year with a real revenue stream and healthy dealer network.

Unless they've got an investor with very deep pockets we haven't heard of yet, I think anything other than a very slow and steady approach could get them in trouble again. And even if they have a deep-pocket investor, I think trying to do too much, too soon could still be foolish.

zviadi
09-24-2016, 02:33 PM
Unless they've got an investor with very deep pockets we haven't heard of yet, I think anything other than a very slow and steady approach could get them in trouble again. And even if they have a deep-pocket investor, I think trying to do too much, too soon could still be foolish.

Agree. Sharp movements in business can lead to bankruptcy.
Don't produced any models of motorcycles that have little compatible parts. Small manufacturers need more unification.


I would love to see a Hastur-type middle-weight

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Hastur was inline-two 650 ccm.
His competitors will Ducati Scrambler or BMW F800.
Eric will have to try to make the bike with good handling and electronics, to defeat them.
I don’t need any electronics, ABS and traction onboard, but in this niche of people demand it. Without it, there will be sales.


I think most people would agree that the EBR's are among the best-handling big-bikes on the planet, but they can't compete with the inline-fours on power. So increase that power without altering the weight and handling (much) and you've got a bike from a tiny manufacturer in East Troy that could outperform the best performing bikes on the planet.

Unfortunately, it will not work.
The market dictates the conditions. Only a small number of users can ride on a powerful bike without electronics. If the manufacturer will be guided only by skilled users, it will go bankrupt.
Now is the time of marketing and one-time items.
Electronics helps solve problems with poor chassis or engine that we see everywhere. Put a lot of sensors is simply, than make a good chassis.
Good electronics worth the money and need competent developments. EBR-electronics it is not strong. I immediately disabled TC, that does not bother me.
Once again - I don’t need TC, ABS, anti-weely etc. I fight with my bike without electronic crutches and enjoy it. But people like me - in minority.
Most users want to drive a powerful 200-horsepower motorcycle as a scooter.
Buyer is spoiled.

Scott
09-24-2016, 06:07 PM
Most users want to drive a powerful 200-horsepower motorcycle as a scooter.


This is it. Most people who buy Buells and EBR's understand what's important - good handling, good torque, good brakes for a responsive bike that becomes an extension of a reasonably talented rider.

But Buell and EBR riders are an extremely small group of generally experienced and educated riders. If most riders understood bikes the way we do, the EBR's would be flying off dealership floors at the prices they're currently going for.

But most motorcycle riders don't look past things like peak HP, top speed, quarter mile times, head to head moto-mag comparisons and WSBK performance. (and once they've bought a bike that has those things, they rarely take them close to their performance limits). I've lost track of how many times I've seen peple poo-poo EBR and Buell because they don't have those things.

I can almost guarantee that EBR won't be racing in WSBK within the next five years. They don't have the money, they aren't selling enough bikes (I believe a BIG part of the reason they got into the mess they did was Hero wanted to race WSBK and to do so meant they had to produce more bikes than the market was demanding to be eligible for WSBK and that left them pushing on a string - making more bikes than customers were asking for rather than taking it slow and steady and producing bikes in quantities appropriate with demand).

And since they won't be racing WSBK, that means they need to focus on the other things I mentioned - peak HP, top speed, quarter mile times and head to head moto-mag comparisons - and they could address all of those with a modified, forced induction version of the current bike.

And it won't be about selling those bikes. Those hyper-bikes will be to get people's attention. They won't need a lot of electronics, because they will be raw, untamed beasts. Advanced electronics are needed in today's world to be competitive at the top levels of WSBK, but they're not needed to make sure your HP graph is higher than your competitors when Cycle World puts them on the dyno and publishes the chart. I'm not a fan of electronics, but they'll need them if they want to compete in this market, so they better be developing them whether they make a hyper-bike or not (and obviously ABS is required for a world market).

Very few riders buy Panigale R's or R1M's or H2R's and despite what ignorant people may think, nobody is buying the bikes they're watching in WSBK.

But those bikes create images that sell the more pedestrian bikes.

EBR's task isn't to impress people like us. We already know about them and we're already impressed. But if they want to grow, they have to impress and get known by a much larger, much less educated audience.

If EBR can produce a hyper version of the 1190 RX, I believe that will get them a lot of press, a lot of buzz and a lot of people who have never heard of them viewing them as a serious sport-bike manufacturer. I believe that's what they need to sell their "real" bikes.

ljm
09-25-2016, 11:56 PM
Since we are all taking wild guesses based on NO information, here's mine:
1. More adventure-like 1190 with luggage, wind screen, different suspension, different seat, and detuned engine, off-road tires.
2. Smaller displacement, lowered, naked bike using the same frame, bottom end, and most components. Corresponding weight savings from less output will make it more easily manageable.
3. In 17 1/2, ABS available on all models.
4. And way out on the limb: A middle weight, but no idea as to what it will use for a powerplant. If the 620 Hastur motor rights were retained, then a tweaked version of that. If not, then a Rotax 650 licensed to them.

There. If this pans out, I am investing in penny stocks.

Scott
09-26-2016, 09:55 AM
4. And way out on the limb: A middle weight, but no idea as to what it will use for a powerplant. If the 620 Hastur motor rights were retained, then a tweaked version of that. If not, then a Rotax 650 licensed to them.

There. If this pans out, I am investing in penny stocks.

One of the more interesting things to come out of the court proceedings was this little bit of information:

"and some of the largest amounts owed to creditors included $733,000 to Mito Tech Co., a Japanese engine design firm, and $390,000 to Porsche Engineering Group."

http://archive.jsonline.com/business/erik-buell-racing-manufacturing-assets-sold-at-third-auction-b99651291z1-365207811.html

Was that the Hastur engine or a specific EBR design? If it was the Hastur, being developed for Hero, why would it be on EBR's books instead of Hero's? And if it was beign developed for EBR, where do things stand now with that debt hanging out there? On one hand, Mito probably wasn't happy with the big hit they almost certainly took, but now that the work has been done, if EBR is willing to pay something to get something, it would make sense for Mito to work with them and salvage whatever they can out of the work performed.

Unfortunately, even if they now own a great design for a great middle-weight bike, that's only the first step. It takes a lot of money and effort to design and test the prototypes, have all the tooling created for manufacturing, test the parts and assembled components, obtain EPA and DOT certifications etc. etc. etc.

So I just can't imagine them making a completely new design any time soon. They either need to get some solid cash-flow from the sales of their 1190 bikes, or they need a big investor willing to put up a lot of cash (probably something in the ballpark of $50 million minimum). And even if they could start cranking out a lower-price higher volume middle-weight next week, they only have 16 dealers. They can't hope to sell the number of bikes they'd need to justify all that investment with the dealer network they currently have.

I hate to be Debbie Downer, but for those reasons, I highly doubt a true, unique middle-weight is coming any time soon.

I think we're much more likely to get a less expensive, shorter stroke 900 cc variation of the current bikes - but even something like that could be very cool if done right and help get them to where they need to be to start making new designs.

Scott
09-26-2016, 10:21 AM
I notice they have a white 1190RX now. Was that new for 2017, or did they offer that in 2016? I don't think I've seen any white RX's. Does anyone have one or are there any pictures out there? I think white should look pretty sharp.

Hughlysses
09-26-2016, 10:34 AM
I notice they have a white 1190RX now. Was that new for 2017, or did they offer that in 2016? I don't think I've seen any white RX's. Does anyone have one or are there any pictures out there? I think white should look pretty sharp.

I think that is a new color. Note that both the RX and SX are each available in 5 different colors now, and some color choices raise the price of the bike significantly.

A couple of people who did the tour at the factory open house back in March noted that the "build sheets" attached to each bike going down the assembly line listed color choices for the wheels (red was one IIRC); that may be a cool option in the near future. I really like the gunmetal gray with red wheels that they've shown on a couple of bikes.

Hughlysses
09-26-2016, 10:41 AM
Unfortunately, even if they now own a great design for a great middle-weight bike, that's only the first step. It takes a lot of money and effort to design and test the prototypes, have all the tooling created for manufacturing, test the parts and assembled components, obtain EPA and DOT certifications etc. etc. etc.

So I just can't imagine them making a completely new design any time soon. They either need to get some solid cash-flow from the sales of their 1190 bikes, or they need a big investor willing to put up a lot of cash (probably something in the ballpark of $50 million minimum). And even if they could start cranking out a lower-price higher volume middle-weight next week, they only have 16 dealers. They can't hope to sell the number of bikes they'd need to justify all that investment with the dealer network they currently have.

I hate to be Debbie Downer, but for those reasons, I highly doubt a true, unique middle-weight is coming any time soon.

I think we're much more likely to get a less expensive, shorter stroke 900 cc variation of the current bikes - but even something like that could be very cool if done right and help get them to where they need to be to start making new designs.

Erik dropped some hints as to what might be coming in an interview in the July 2015 issue of Cycle World a few months after EBR entered receivership:


We've been working on the mainstream stuff. I can't talk about what was coming, but I will say some of it is much different than anybody would have expected. Stuff that is 18 months away from full-volume production that people would go "Holy s--t! EBR did that?!" It was all much higher volume and lower price.

That could mean a lot of things, but it does seem to imply they were at least into the prototype stage when things were shut down. I can imagine 2 possibilities for the engine- either a variation on the ET-V2 or an off-the-shelf Rotax engine. Hell, for all we know Erik spent his ~year long "vacation" hammering the hell out of a prototype on the backroads of Wisconsin! That wouldn't help with EPA or DOT, but it might let them check "reliability testing" off the list. :biggrin:

Scott
09-26-2016, 12:16 PM
I think that is a new color. Note that both the RX and SX are each available in 5 different colors now, and some color choices raise the price of the bike significantly.

A couple of people who did the tour at the factory open house back in March noted that the "build sheets" attached to each bike going down the assembly line listed color choices for the wheels (red was one IIRC); that may be a cool option in the near future. I really like the gunmetal gray with red wheels that they've shown on a couple of bikes.


I'd love a White RX with blue wheels. That's a color scheme with some historical significance:

1142

1143

1144

But, yeah, I also like the gray with red wheels.:biggrin:

Scott
09-26-2016, 12:20 PM
Erik dropped some hints as to what might be coming in an interview in the July 2015 issue of Cycle World a few months after EBR entered receivership:



That could mean a lot of things, but it does seem to imply they were at least into the prototype stage when things were shut down. I can imagine 2 possibilities for the engine- either a variation on the ET-V2 or an off-the-shelf Rotax engine. Hell, for all we know Erik spent his ~year long "vacation" hammering the hell out of a prototype on the backroads of Wisconsin! That wouldn't help with EPA or DOT, but it might let them check "reliability testing" off the list. :biggrin:

Yeah, I don't think there's any doubt they have something cool and I'm hoping we'll get a glimpse of it with the "prototypes" they promised. But I expect they'll try to use the prototype to build interest (and maybe attract investors) as they get their s*** together.

Erik's comments on a video interview a while back indicated they really don't have the money for new things right now. Maybe somebody behind the scenes has come in with a lot of money, but if that happened, I think they'd be telling everybody - not keeping it a secret.

I suspect Liquid Assets is willing and able to supply enough money to keep them in business for the foreseeable future, but they probably won't risk much beyond that. And as long as they can stay in business for the foreseeable future, the money coming in will eventually be able to fund new projects.

I'm reasonably confident EBR is in pretty good shape right now and the future is bright, but I think we'll have to be patient for a while longer.

Scott
09-26-2016, 12:27 PM
The Long Beach motorcycle show is November 20th, so hopefully we'll see some cool things then.

1313
09-26-2016, 08:00 PM
Competition White was indeed an available color on the 2016 1190RX.

Hughlysses
09-27-2016, 07:56 AM
^ Interesting. I'd guess the $1k premium for some colors on the RX and $500 premium for some colors on the SX means those aren't really "production" colors, but would have to be special ordered from their bodywork supplier.

I wonder if we'll see any other evidence of the 2017's this week? According to the press release, they're supposed to be at the dealers this week.

I have a feeling we'll have to wait on the IMS in Long Beach in November before we see anything really interesting.

Scott
09-27-2016, 09:08 AM
Competition White was indeed an available color on the 2016 1190RX.

Thanks for the clarification.:thumb:

Scott
09-27-2016, 09:14 AM
^ Interesting. I'd guess the $1k premium for some colors on the RX and $500 premium for some colors on the SX means those aren't really "production" colors, but would have to be special ordered from their bodywork supplier.

I wonder if we'll see any other evidence of the 2017's this week? According to the press release, they're supposed to be at the dealers this week.

I have a feeling we'll have to wait on the IMS in Long Beach in November before we see anything really interesting.

Yeah, I suspect the updates to the 2017's are just minor fixes to problems that have been popping up. The 2017 1/2 and 2018 bikes will probably be the ones we'll be more interested in hearing about and hopefully the motorcycle shows will offer some more on that.

Since they're skipping Orlando, I'm thinking that might mean they want to put some things together that aren't quite ready yet for Long Beach. If they just planned to show up with production models, they should have those now and could put in an appearance at Orlando if that's all they planned to do.

Speedy13
09-28-2016, 05:04 PM
Here is my 2014 RX with white paint11521153

Scott
09-28-2016, 07:05 PM
:thumb: Nice!

zviadi
09-29-2016, 02:35 PM
Russian article:

http://moto-magazine.ru/news/kompaniya_ebr_sozdala_nechto_bystroe_tyemnoe_i_dli nnoe/

Quotations:

"EBR company created something fast, dark and long"

"The forthcoming mid-November International Motorcycle Shows Exhibition in Long Beach, California Eric Buell is going to present not only the range of the future on the basis of the already known machines, but also some new items.
Specificity yet. We only know that one of the motorcycles will fit the slogan "Fast, dark and long" that can be interpreted as a dragster based on the proven 1190-ccm twin with a 72-degree angle of the cylinders, which have to compete with the Ducati Diavel and Harley-Davidson V-Rod. But the second before the series gets not before 2018: it should be a completely new platform of the future family "budget" city bikes costing up to $ 10,000. In the US, the price fit, for example, Yamaha FZ-09 (american name MT-09). Does this mean that there will be something similar?"

Scott
09-30-2016, 07:08 AM
Russian article:

http://moto-magazine.ru/news/kompaniya_ebr_sozdala_nechto_bystroe_tyemnoe_i_dli nnoe/

Quotations:

"EBR company created something fast, dark and long"

"The forthcoming mid-November International Motorcycle Shows Exhibition in Long Beach, California Eric Buell is going to present not only the range of the future on the basis of the already known machines, but also some new items.
Specificity yet. We only know that one of the motorcycles will fit the slogan "Fast, dark and long" that can be interpreted as a dragster based on the proven 1190-ccm twin with a 72-degree angle of the cylinders, which have to compete with the Ducati Diavel and Harley-Davidson V-Rod. But the second before the series gets not before 2018: it should be a completely new platform of the future family "budget" city bikes costing up to $ 10,000. In the US, the price fit, for example, Yamaha FZ-09 (american name MT-09). Does this mean that there will be something similar?"


It looks like they changed "quick, dark and low" from the press release to "fast, dark and long". To me the low just hints at a slightly lower suspension and seat (remember the XB12SG?) and the mention of it being for "urban riders" makes me think of the CityX, so I'm expecting a lowered 1190SX with hand-guards and a dark paint scheme. Maybe they'll extend the rear swing-arm to make it more of a drag-bike (that would be interesting), but even that big of a mechanical change would surprise me.

It would be interesting to see them market it against the Diavel - because it would likely blow the Diavel away on performance, but I expect it to be much more comparable to the Ducati Monster than Diavel.

Hughlysses
09-30-2016, 09:58 AM
I was kind of hoping we'd see something more concrete on the 2017 models this week since they're supposed to be in showrooms. I imagine whatever updates they've made are very subtle other than perhaps "bold new colors".

We did have some additional positive news this week: EBR now has a factory tall accessory windshield now for the RX's and Ventura is making a rack system for EBRs. Those are both positive signs for the continuance of EBR.

Edit- Oh yea, they also added dealer #16, in California this week.

Sparky
02-24-2017, 10:03 PM
I ordered the Ventura brackets and grab handle for an SX in January but they were not in stock then. However they should ship in 3 - 5 weeks is the latest word from them. Hopefully that will happen.

Sparky
02-28-2017, 11:39 AM
I just got a notice that Ventura MCA now has the mount brackets for SX/RX in stock and are shipping.:thumb: