Upper injectors

[zviadi]

Has anyone checked the work of upper injectors with the airbox cover removed?
The question is - do they work on high rpm when the motorcycle is stationary in neutral? Or does he work on high rpm only in the run on gear?

[Jbaker229]

Has anyone checked the work of upper injectors with the airbox cover removed?
The question is - do they work on high rpm when the motorcycle is stationary in neutral? Or does he work on high rpm only in the run on gear?


Hi Zviadi, there are actually some videos on youtube that explain the secondary injectors. To answer your question, they are supposed to start fully engaging around the 7/8k mark. I have ran my bike without the airbox (stationary). If you rev the bike a bit (around 4K?) you can get them to spray a tiny bit.

Check out the video from EBR's technical director here:

https://youtu.be/kWB0vCEUBCU?t=1m5s

[zviadi]

they are supposed to start fully engaging around the 7/8k mark. I have ran my bike without the airbox (stationary)

Ok, it is important.
Because my both upper injectors did not work when bike stay on sidestand. More than once add gas from cut off - no spraying. Since the purchase of a bike in May 2015 until yesterday.
And yesterday changed both oxygen sensors and the mechanic told me that upper injectors have runned.

This surprised me, because I go to the dyno in July 2015 and measured the parameters of the engine, he correct to independent measurements in media and this forum. I do not know how to correct the measurement results at the faulty upper injectors. It would immediately be seen on the AFR diagram.

1105

Therefore, until yesterday, I thought that the upper injectors are activated only when bike is moving.
Tomorrow I'm taking my bike from the service zone and check personally whether his dynamic performance changed.

[buell-fan]

That air/fuel ratio graph doesn't look that bad really.

[zviadi]

Above 4000 rpm it is ideal - exactly near 13.

[zviadi]

Test drive did not work - bike began to smoke and caught fire on the move...

[buell-fan]

You need a different mechanic! There is no reason for fire unless hoses were not connected correctly.

[zviadi]

With good mechanics here are bad. Everyone wants to repair the Jap bikes, and preferably serviceable)))
I doubt that the cause of the fire are no properly joined hoses, because I drove about 15 miles.

My thoughts on this incident.
Fairing caught fire due to the hot muffler. Heated it because again broke O2 sensor of rear cylinder. O2 sensor broke from the fact that the rear injector is not closed and all time is spraying, making the very rich AFR. Surplus fuel flew in muffler and burning down there with clapping. Bike to lose power, muffler is overheating and caught fire and smoke at traffic light.
Nothing critical, except for melted stock belly pan, bike even start up without any problems and give out any dash errors, except the rear cylinder O2 sensor.
No one mechanic would not have guessed this development.

[lotusexcelle]

A note about what you might be dealing with. The RaceECM from EBR won't rev much past 8k with the clutch pulled in. I'd bet if there is a sidestand switch on your bike the same thing is happening. I haven't tried it in neutral but I'l also be willing to bet it won't rev that way either. Get it on a rear stand so you an put it in gear, then check if the showerheads are dosing. I'd bet they are.

The other issues you are having... are due to VERY incompetent mechanics. If you can - you should work on your own bike.

[Jbaker229]

My guess Zviadi, is that your upper injectors are working fine. Per messages above there may be a number of reasons why you are not seeing them activate when the bike is stationary. Judging by your dyno numbers, I would be surprised if they were not working. I have also not heard of any cases of the injectors breaking on any other bikes, so it seems like they are pretty resilient.

[zviadi]

Work of upper injectors I checked personally each time the air filter is serviced. I have never seen drops or spray. Even under these substituted a hand and added gas - nothing. So I was surprised my dyno. Dyno measured authorized Dinojet dealer. It has nothing to do with the mechanics serving my motorcycle.
Incidentally, these mechanics fully fingered me harness my DD1200 after intervention of stupid Aprilia dealers. So I trust these mechanics.

Yesterday removed injectors and put them in the wash. On this bike apply Siemens Deka VII.
Today, found that the injectors is likely to work properly - opened when the piston is going down or opened on a very long time.

[buell-fan]

Before you spend a bunch of money on new injectors buy this camera for your laptop computer or phone.

http://m.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_trksid=m4084.l1313&_nkw=5M+7mm+6+LED+Android+Endoscope+Waterproof+Sna ke+Borescope+USB+Inspection+Camera

Mount the camera in the airbox and the phone on the outside of the airbox and then take it for a ride to see if they are actually working under normal load conditions.

[zviadi]

My injectors it's ok, it is not necessary to change. Problem in the injection relay or in ECU.
I don't know if there is such a relay in this bike. If there are - they must to find. I need wiring diagram for this. We can do without it, but it will be longer.

[zviadi]

To remove all questions about the qualifications my mechanics, order of events is such:
1. Purchasing bike in May 2015. Everything is fine.
2. After 1 week check air filter. Upper injectors not spraying.
3. A month went to the dyno. Still not seen even once, as the upper injector spraying.
4. No problem until November 2015.
5. From November to March - winter break.
6. April 2016 - opening of new motoseason. Everything is fine. Still not seen even once, as the upper injector spraying.
7. 30 April 2016 - road accident with crush and three months of repairs. Removed body work and front fender. Airbox not opened.
8. 27 July 2016 - first ride, eerie high-frequency vibrations to clip-ons. No dash errors. Milleage circa 1000 miles.
9. 5 August 2016 - error front and rear O2 sensors. Replace both sensors. Mechanic told me, that upper injector sprayed at high rpm. I was surprised.
10. 23 August 2016 - first test-drive after repair, drove 15 km, further rear O2 sensor error, check engine on dash and fire with smoke.
11. That evening repeated disassembly of bike.
12. 25 August 2016 - repeated assembly. The injectors are very dirty, but they washed. I'm waiting of results. Further need second test-drive.

[lotusexcelle]

I might sound like I'm being a dick - but I'm just trying to get an understanding. So after a crash things go a little haywire. My RX was crashed before I bought it and things are a little out of whack as well - but I'm sorting through those issues as they become apparent.
But let me explain why I mention the mechanics.
An O2 error code does *not* mean "replace the sensor". It is an error code. The root cause needs to be diagnosed by a qualified technician. If the root cause IS the sensor, that is one thing. But a large portion of mechanics seem to think that an engine code is a command to replace a part. It isn't. Is it possible both sensors failed? Yes. Likely? Nope. So someone is doing what we call "hanging parts". They are not diagnosing.
O2 codes in general are due to air/fuel mixture problems and NOT the O2 sensor.

Okay so on top of all of that your injectors were always working correctly and your assumption that they should spray all the time lead to (at least) some pointless disassembly and worry.
Any issues the bike itself is having are multiplied by the people that don't understand the bike or how to diagnose and repair it. Don't take that as an insult - I do not mean it to be. It is a pretty advanced piece of technology and even good mechanics don't always understand how everything works. What I'd recommend is that any issues you are having - communicate with EBR's tech support directly. They would have told you early on that your injectors were behaving normally.

As for the fire... I'd like to see photos but fire should stay inside the engine. If anything really did catch fire outside of the engine there is a *major* problem.

[zviadi]

Dash errors both times - "rear O2 sensor fault". Double meaning can not be.
Before that often there was an error in the front O2 sensor circuit (it appears many users). We decided to immediately replace both sensors - will still have to disassemble the bike, it makes no sense to save $35 per sensor... We tested both dismantled sensors - both were dead.
As you can see below, the case was not in the sensors.
We do not have specialized service equipment. Dealer located 700 km away from me and closed in the last year. We had to rely on dashboard errors and simple instrumentation.
I did not photos from the fire and its consequences. Sorry.

The situation is - hot muffler heated belly pan from a poor AFR, he bent on one side and lay down on the muffler on the other side. This side caught fire. I quickly noticed and put out an open fire with my gloves. Therefore, almost no external damage, if not look below. Under the fairing to all right.
Thus, O2 sensor error was just the result of another problem. We believe that cause is clogged injectors, because during the washing flowed black thick liquid of them, similar to tar. Usually such pollution characteristic of car injectors with milleage of 100-150 thousand miles. From these contaminants in my injectors - we do not know. We can only assume that I tucked the motorcycle substandard gasoline. Unfortunately, this is the norm from Russia. Perhaps this slag at the bottom of the fuel tank, it shook up after my crash and was sucked into the injectors. Perhaps is it the decomposition products of motorcycle fuel hose.
We have checked injectors output before wash and it differed twice. Two injectors is not working properly. After wash all injectors working normal.
Now they have to set and test the engine. Damaged O2 sensors replaced on new.

[Jbaker229]

Dash errors both times - "rear O2 sensor fault". Double meaning can not be.
Before that often there was an error in the front O2 sensor circuit (it appears many users). We decided to immediately replace both sensors - will still have to disassemble the bike, it makes no sense to save $35 per sensor... We tested both dismantled sensors - both were dead.
As you can see below, the case was not in the sensors.
We do not have specialized service equipment. Dealer located 700 km away from me and closed in the last year. We had to rely on dashboard errors and simple instrumentation.
I did not photos from the fire and its consequences. Sorry.

The situation is - hot muffler heated belly pan from a poor AFR, he bent on one side and lay down on the muffler on the other side. This side caught fire. I quickly noticed and put out an open fire with my gloves. Therefore, almost no external damage, if not look below. Under the fairing to all right.
Thus, O2 sensor error was just the result of another problem. We believe that cause is clogged injectors, because during the washing flowed black thick liquid of them, similar to tar. Usually such pollution characteristic of car injectors with milleage of 100-150 thousand miles. From these contaminants in my injectors - we do not know. We can only assume that I tucked the motorcycle substandard gasoline. Unfortunately, this is the norm from Russia. Perhaps this slag at the bottom of the fuel tank, it shook up after my crash and was sucked into the injectors. Perhaps is it the decomposition products of motorcycle fuel hose.
We have checked injectors output before wash and it differed twice. Two injectors is not working properly. After wash all injectors working normal.
Now they have to set and test the engine. Damaged O2 sensors replaced on new.


Perhaps, you are correct Zvadi, but i will echo the post above and suggest you contact EBR tech directly. If the upper injectors were not working, i would guess that the engine would run lean in the upper ranges of the RPM range. Without a lot of technical knowledge, i would guess that this could create an O2 error, but it seems to me that it would only occur past the 7k mark as the injectors are coming online. Again, your dyno numbers indicate otherwise. One of the best ways to see if you are having a problem is to just ride the bike, if performance suffers above 7k and engine is hotter than normal and you are low on power coming into the 7k mark then it might be the injectors. If the bike feels normal, my guess is that it is fine. You can email the tech team at EBR by contacting "tech@ebr.com"

[zviadi]

Yesterday assembled bike. Upper injectors sprayed at 4000 rpm - personally convinced in it.