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View Full Version : Attaining over 200 WHP.



rugbyguitargod
06-09-2016, 05:56 PM
Just because I am a go-fast guy, what does it take to get these bikes over 200 hp to the wheels?

Hughlysses
06-09-2016, 07:49 PM
Well, the WSBK bikes had to be hitting about that when they were making progress early last year. Call Larry Pegram; maybe he can tell you.

Of course, you'll completely ruin the streetability of that engine. Like Erik says, the comparable Ducati's are making ~5 HP more than the EBR on the top end. The EBR makes TWENTY more HP in the midrange. Which do you think will be more useful on the street?

d_adams
06-09-2016, 07:56 PM
I can get you pretty much right at 180 at the wheel with the exhaust and tuned ecm running on just 93 octane pump gas. Beyond that, you'd be looking at motor work or alternative fuel, ie; alcohol or a high octane mix.

Doug Porcaro
06-10-2016, 11:35 AM
I think it can be done with race fuel. Erik himself told me their race bike made 205 wheel.

180 wheel (200 crank) on pump is really awesome, especially in a twin.

Even stock these bikes are very fast. They also turn the fastest and look the best.

Classax
06-15-2016, 10:18 AM
I enjoy wrenching more than some but a lot less than others and I don't want a bike that's like a topfuel dragster where it makes epic power levels but has to be rebuilt after every run. Plus 180 at the rear is amazing considering that most of the other OEM's do not run the same geometry in the race bikes as the replica street bikes like EBR. That coupled with the fact that if you watch laps of a lot of these R1, RSV4, Panigale and especially S1krr ridrs the TC lights are almost constantly on for the quicker riders where as take a look a Pat or Rob, they don't even have the TC turned on. What's the point of making all that power on the dyno but having the nannie kick it back down to 600 levels when you actually want it most every lap. Ill take the 180 and better mechanical grip thanks.

buell-fan
06-15-2016, 01:20 PM
Classax, Pat runs his TC on one. The individual levels are each adjustable as well, depending on the number of teeth I the rear sprocket and the level of tune.

GJB
06-16-2016, 12:09 AM
What do you mean by 'the individual levels are adjustable'?

THanks

buell-fan
06-16-2016, 08:20 AM
The way I understand it, from Tim Blomenberg of IDS, when you change your tune and or socket size you need to change the value of the field in each traction control setting to proprtionately compensate for the more or less power applied to the rear.

GJB
06-16-2016, 11:24 PM
I asked Tim if I could change traction control settings and he said no, that was not something that I could do. I would like to customize traction control settings if that was possible

buell-fan
06-17-2016, 04:00 PM
The setting values change with each preprogrammed tune, as in going from a 41 tooth sprocket to a 44. He did some custom work on my ecm at the track because of an odd sprocket change and explained it to me then.

GJB
06-18-2016, 09:58 AM
OK It would be nice, and I am sure is possible, to be able to create custom TC maps, similar to Bazzaz. The current TC is pretty useless for track.

GJB
06-19-2016, 10:06 AM
I would like to be able to adjust the traction control map, like Bazzaz. It seems like that could be done through the ECU.

darkducati
06-21-2016, 08:07 AM
What about E85? Seems like you would be able to run a lot more advance and take full advantage of all of that higher compression ratio.

rugbyguitargod
06-22-2016, 05:18 PM
What about E85? Seems like you would be able to run a lot more advance and take full advantage of all of that higher compression ratio.

That makes sense in theory, but a lot is involved in changing over to E85 as i'm sure you know. higher-flowing injectors, beefier fuel pump, custom dyno tuning, ect. Not to mention, the undocumented 2nd and 3rd order effects of long-term use of E85 in an engine like this with valves and quench areas that are within extremely tight tolerances.

darkducati
06-23-2016, 10:00 AM
That makes sense in theory, but a lot is involved in changing over to E85 as i'm sure you know. higher-flowing injectors, beefier fuel pump, custom dyno tuning, ect. Not to mention, the undocumented 2nd and 3rd order effects of long-term use of E85 in an engine like this with valves and quench areas that are within extremely tight tolerances.
All very true. I think with a little engine work you could really make it worthwhile though. Somewhere in the 15-16:1 compression ratio area would be insane. It would probably help keep the temperatures to a more realistic level too given that horsepower range.

Jbaker229
06-23-2016, 02:08 PM
I am out of my league in this particular forum - but I wonder if RS cams+ECU+race fuel is all you need to get there? It is my understanding that the RS motor and the RX motor are the same except for the cams and a couple of little parts like the exhaust etc. I also know there was an SX posted on the 1190 FB page that is supposed to be making 200 rwhp.

darkducati
06-23-2016, 02:57 PM
I am out of my league in this particular forum - but I wonder if RS cams+ECU+race fuel is all you need to get there? It is my understanding that the RS motor and the RX motor are the same except for the cams and a couple of little parts like the exhaust etc. I also know there was an SX posted on the 1190 FB page that is supposed to be making 200 rwhp.
Doesn't the RS make less power than the RX/SX?

d_adams
06-23-2016, 04:54 PM
The RS was spec'd at 175 hp at the crank. Even with the thinner base gaskets, race exhaust and ecm, I don't think it went over 175 at the wheel. Most were maybe 170 that I'd heard of. Basically, the RX/SX makes 10 hp more everywhere. You might possibly get more on a race fuel mix, the numbers I've seen were on just regular pump gas, ie; 93 octane. 200 hp at the wheel is WSBK levels of power, so I'm thinking that bike in question that's making a claimed 200 hp is on a VERY generous dyno. I'd like for them to post video of it making those numbers, back to back with a stock setup making what they normally do at about 160 at the wheel, then run this special SX and show what it really makes. Even with a race fuel mix, I just don't see a stock motor 1190 anything making 200 hp at the wheel.

DkRider
06-27-2016, 03:33 AM
Here in Denmark we can get 99 octane pump gas. i wonder how much of a differance with the right tune that would make.

Hughlysses
06-27-2016, 12:23 PM
Here in Denmark we can get 99 octane pump gas. i wonder how much of a differance with the right tune that would make.

DK- Europe and USA use different standards for the octane rating. Europe uses the RON (Research Octane Number) while the US uses the average of the RON and the MON (Motor Octane Number). For the same fuel, the US octane number will be lower.

An article I found on-line explains it like this: "In Europe, the octane rating on the pump is simply the RON figure. America, by contrast, uses the average of the RON and the MON figures, called the AKI (anti-knock index). Thus, 97 octane “super unleaded” in Britain is roughly equivalent to 91 octane premium in the United States."

I'm guessing your 99 octane fuel would be very close to our 93 octane fuel.

Diablo1
07-14-2016, 05:48 AM
If it was so easy to make this type of power with the 1190, the teams would have been a lot more competitive in WSBK. Also, they were blowing up engines routinely, even at the low power levels. I can't recall any team with more DNFs.

Nick
07-14-2016, 07:54 AM
In fairness to ebr and larry's team and the like, the amount of engine testing and design the big dollar teams would have done before their engines even got to see the track, more than likely many more engine experiments, failures and success alike, much would have been learnt out of season. Ebr's on the other hand would unfortunately not have had the same r&d team.

In 650ib's interview with erik, at around 3.05 minutes, erik mentions how in street trim the rx makes more than the rs, however the rs with race cams, lighter pistons ect. has the potential to make more than the rx engine. Makes sense. https://youtu.be/iyZ250_eIyM

qurtrn10
07-23-2016, 03:45 PM
Would the 1190 engine respond well to a power adder (nitrous, turbo, supercharger)?

darkducati
07-24-2016, 07:14 AM
In short, no. Not without internal modification. 13.4:1 compression is extremely high and far outside the normal sweet spot of a boost or nitrous application.

ryandcramer
10-27-2016, 09:33 PM
Would 100 unleaded race gas bring out anymore power?

The bike has the Race ECM and HMF pipe.

d_adams
10-28-2016, 04:39 AM
Would the 1190 engine respond well to a power adder (nitrous, turbo, supercharger)?

Umm, yeah, it will. 220+ hp easy with mild boost.

Mike
10-28-2016, 10:30 AM
ANY...boost and or nitrous requires a different cam profile to work it's best.
Will a given naturally aspirated cam work under pressure, yes, but a cam "designed" for either a blower or nitrous will work MUCH better.

Not even counting the lowering of the compression ratio. Unless you want to run blown alcohol, then 13 to 1 is actually a little light..!

Mike