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Thread: Has anyone looked into the cause of the front rod failures?

  1. #11
    EBRforum Expert Cooter's Avatar
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    So very true. I'll do some track days too, but I ride hard knowing theres no trophy coming. I won't be banging off the rev limiter, but I'm shocked
    he says sub 8k rpm!?! Whaaa? Thats not even in the power band yet!

    The liners start to make sense if it's going to be a track toy (even if that's not the issue). For engine longevity and rider confidence too!

  2. #12
    EBRforum ProvNov gdisaac07's Avatar
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    As an update, I talked to the folks at LA Sleeves (which the more I say it, the more it sounds like a tattoo shop). They confirmed that they have worked with EBR in the past. They said that they could definitely do liners for us, either higher-spec spun-cast iron ones, or nikasil-plated liners. Prices seem very reasonable (he said around $200/liner for the cast ones, no pricing for the nikasil ones yet) and he said he'd expect life of 50,000+ miles from the cast ones, maybe more for the nikasil-plated. He said he has a diesel application using the cast ones that has 500,000 miles on it right now and still going.

    “There are two types of sleeves,” says LA Sleeve’s Dave Metchkoff. “Centrifugal spun-cast iron and poured cast iron. Of those two manufacturing processes there are also two unequal material composites. There is the most commonly used iron which is simply called grey cast iron. Then there is ductile (also called nodular) iron.”

    Poured cast iron is, not surprisingly, poured into a cylinder casting mold. Generally more prone to porosity and weakness, the grey iron material is only as good as its pour and heat treat. Air pockets or carbon deposits can be trapped within the walls of the castings. “If such sleeves are used in a high performance application, they can washboard the surface, crack or become deformed under heavy load,” says Metchkoff.

    “The spinning method used to produce centrifugal spun-cast iron will draw the impurities and porosity and air pockets out from the raw casting material’s center to the outer surface, which will be removed while producing sleeves,” Metchkoff continues. “This creates a sleeve material with greater density and micro-structure, which will enable the sleeve to withstand greater loads without losing shape or cylindrical roundness.”

    Grey iron is best used in an environment which is highly controlled, Metchkoff says. The installer or engine builder will be satisfied using the grey cast iron in an iron block with very stable wall thickness. The wall thickness is key because it will hold the sleeve in a stable area, ensuring good ring seal.

    Ductile iron is twice as hard and strong as the grey iron and is appropriate for applications that are far less predictable, such as in very thin-wall iron block motors or most aftermarket aluminum blocks. “In aluminum blocks, where wall thickness is a major consideration, an engine builder will want to use ductile iron because the ductile material will actually reinforce the lightweight alloy blocks,” Metchkoff says. “The ductile can be warped under a heavy load, but it will return back to its beginning origin because it has tremendous memory. The material has the ability to adapt to the movement of the piston or aluminum block and bring it back to round.”

    Source: http://www.enginebuildermag.com/2009...inder-sleeves/
    I asked him for a full proposal for each liner type, and he said he'd email it to me for me to post publicly.
    Last edited by gdisaac07; 03-20-2018 at 11:48 PM. Reason: Added quotes
    2017 EBR 1190SX
    2009 Buell XB12scg

  3. #13
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    per Shane Myers If LA Sleeve reworks your existing cylinders. I would recommend the nikasil as it has a better surface finish and is more durable.

    Jorge Contreras, Well... I have about 30 cyclindes about 90% of them new from the auction I need to get rid of. If this goes through Im willing to do an EBR owners discount
    Last edited by EBRRider; 03-20-2018 at 04:43 PM.

  4. #14
    EBRforum ProvNov gdisaac07's Avatar
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    The response from Dave:

    We have had some experience sleeving the EBR cylinders. We cannot comment on the motor as a package, as were not experienced with the internal motor components or drive train. But, we have had the opportunity to both re-sleeve the 1190’s to its original standard bore, and we were tasked to create a big bore sleeve design for the cylinders.

    We had removed the original cylinder liner for our more performance based MOLY2000 centrifugally spun-cast ductile iron cylinder sleeve liners. Our MOLY2000 is made with greater lubricity, tensile strength, and elongation than is found is production based cylinder sleeve liners. The sleeves are laced with chromium, and molybdenum providing a better surface finish. That will also give you assurance of a better seated ring for the longevity. The ductile will also stay rounder, also acting as a added assurance to combat blow-by.

    Ultimately, our goal was simply to provide a better running cylinder for our customer. This was specifically for the standard bore 1190. There is very little history to point to on these cylinder sleeve jobs as those bike are rarity or boutique type ride. We haven’t seen the numbers anywhere close to what we’ve seen in the Japanese street bikes, or Harley’s requiring the same assurance. We’ve had great success in simple street builds, or drag bikes like Eddie Kraiwec or Larry McBride have succeeded on. We’re confident our MOLY2000 material will provide the confidence you want on your power plant. Cost on a re-sleeve is usually $350 per hole or $700 for the twin. If there are repeatable type jobs, the numbers will easily drive down the costs per unit.

    The big bore was asked by a EBR patron. The bigger bore was in the design process but the customer backed off the big bore prior to completion. His hope was to take the 1190 out to a 1340. But, project stalled. Based on our findings, we think it could’ve been done. At his point, all we have is theory, and no concrete evidence. Should you consider the big bore, we’d approximate the cost at around $900 to start. Again, if the numbers grow, the cost would reduce. Let me know if you have any other questions.

    Sincerely,
    Dave Lasco,
    L.A.SLEEVE CO., INC.
    Points that are important to me:

    • Cost is $350 per cylinder, or $700 total
    • The price will decrease with higher order volume
    • These motors can very possibly handle being bored to 1340cc
    • The cost for the big bore will be at least $900 total, but know that it will require re-engineering of the piston and rods

    @EBRRider Feel free to spread this to the FB group, as I don't have an account. I can enquire about a group buy if people are willing to do so.

    Quote Originally Posted by EBRRider View Post
    Jorge Contreras, Well... I have about 30 cyclindes about 90% of them new from the auction I need to get rid of. If this goes through Im willing to do an EBR owners discount
    Also, would you please have Jorge come over and drop me a note? I think I'd like to purchase a front and rear.
    2017 EBR 1190SX
    2009 Buell XB12scg

  5. #15
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    I will thx Done
    Last edited by EBRRider; 03-21-2018 at 08:59 AM.

  6. #16
    EBRforum Junkie MakingPAIN's Avatar
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    This all seems like speculation at best. About the cylinder issues. At this day and age I haven’t seen liner issues like what’s being spoke about. If anyone is trying to persuade everyone to think these bikes have thousands of inferior cylinders put on the market they are crazy. And if a material issue was the cause I think it would have been found during WBSK or some other racing class that they were running stock internal motors.

    And what cooter said or whoever. If you deviate from break in procedure and over fill oil and miss high rpm shift. It will break. And all this done under 700 miles. These are not Harley-Davidson 80 horse pushrod motors. These motors need attention to detail and keen eye when wrenching on them.

    And i I know dudes who blow up s1000 and Rsv4. So are those motors build incorrect also?

    We we need a master builder to diagnose these engines and give a write up. Then that needs to be peer reviewed by other builders to have and weight in the real world

  7. #17
    EBRforum ProvNov gdisaac07's Avatar
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    Shane Myers: I don't know where they go the 1340 idea. There is no room to go bigger on the bore due to the water jackets in the cylinder having a mating surface to the case and it will no longer have a sealing surface for the gasket. With stroke alone it would need to increase 9.5mm (from 67.5 to 76) and the piston would be below the base gasket surface and greatly increasing the stress on the cylinder spigot which is what we are trying to eliminate or conform to. Be happy with the stoke bore and ride it without any fear that its going to blow a hole through your cases.


    My personal approach would be to agree with Shane here. If it's me, I'm going to go for a nikasil-plated cylinder sleeve at stock bore. I'm not looking to put down 200hp @ the wheel. I'm looking to put down 178hp @ the wheel for 10 track days a year and not blow up.
    2017 EBR 1190SX
    2009 Buell XB12scg

  8. #18
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    Does he mean this? "Be happy with the stoke bore and ride it without any fear that its going to blow a hole through your cases."


  9. #19
    EBRforum ProvNov gdisaac07's Avatar
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    I think he means "Be happy with the stock bore and ride it without any fear that its going to blow a hole through your cases."
    2017 EBR 1190SX
    2009 Buell XB12scg

  10. #20
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    I meant Stock bore/ stock engine? or stock bore with sleeves? I'll assume the latter because his opinion is pro-sleeve.

    I still think it's a witch hunt but other than lightening the wallet, why not? If you are doing a valve adjust, it's not much more to swap cylinders. I can't imagine the case would need machining.

    Jorge should send the cylinders he already bought to Dave, they could make a dozen and that would drop the $$ a whole bunch, and do the rest on a core charge/ exchange basis. But that's just an idea.

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