Has anyone looked into the cause of the front rod failures?

[EBRRider]

To start off with Sorry if this is very jumbled but its the only way I could copy and paste it on this forum off of Face book


Has anyone looked into the cause of the front rod failures?thought it was primarily limited to the 1190? 1125’s have this problem as well?Just ride them till they blow.Yes. And it’s not the rod that fails. Instead of just saying it's not the rod that fails, why not say what actually fails if you are so enlightened?Valve retainer,drops valve valve hits piston and kaboom. It's the cylinder wall thickness. It has the same OD as the 1125 and is bored 3mm taking away 1.5mm of wall thickness. I used to be the Race Engine Builder before we got shut down.Shane if your saying the cylinder wall thickness is the issue why did one off five 1125r's also blow and break cases?that was a number of things, heavier crank, crank nuts backing off, followers breaking and valves hitting piston1125's had the same potential but not as much as the 1190. When you take something that is adequate and remove material it becomes inadequate.How about inserting a steel liner, would that fix or help the 1190?.....no more room. The cylinder wall thickness to outer diameter is too thin The liner is the only viable option. We did a set right before the shut down but never had a chance to test them. L.A. Sleeve did them and I'm sure they would do another set but I do not recal the price.so is it just a matter of time for us all?Technically, no. But it all depends on how you ride it. Stress on the cylinder spigot is unacceptable at max RPM. A typical street rider most likely won't have an issue. If you are aggressive or track day/racer I would recommend the liners.thanks Shane I have an Aprilia v2 rotax L A sleeve did the liners out to 1102cc super reliable even on track.what max rpm do you recommend for the track, cheers Probably around 8000 but there is still a lot of stress at that point and eventually it will fail.JEEZ I regularly push to 10k. Where do I get these liners. And is it expensive to have a mechanic install them If someone gets this modification done with L A sleeve or gets the specs from when it was done before then we can send our cylinders to LA sleeve to get done For longevity. I don't recall the cost. I'm fairly certain that they would eliminate the problem. But like I said, they were never tested but they are the best option. You only send them the cylinders so if you can't do that yourself it could get pretty costly. I'd probably charge $1500 ($1000 if it was engine only) due to the fact that the bike will be apart for 3-4 weeks depending on their lead time.when you say you were the race engine builder, what does that mean? What did you do to the engines/ecm and what was the typical outcome and cost? I was building engines for Cory West in AMA Superbike and when the guys in WSBK were having trouble with engine durability, I took over that program as well. We were over 200 HP but I couldn't comment on cost but it was expensive. A lot of 1 off parts.so in order to build them you had to have custom parts? Is it something that could still be done or not really? It could be done but pricey. More than the Cast Iron liners.my mouth waters at a 200hp rx In my case I have a theory that is in no way accurate. First let me give you the back story: I bought my 2016 1190sx with 372 miles on Feb 4 2018. On March 2 on my way home from work the front rod punted through the case. I was in second gear at 70 mph.. probably about 8000 RPM. About a week later I was cleaning the garage and dumping the oil from my catch pan to a 1.6 gallon container. The only oil in that catch pan was from the 620 mile service and some fork oil from my zx10r. I filled that jug. I estimate no less than 4.5 quarts and as much as 5 came out of my 1190sx. After having some time to reflect and research. I was offered a lot of opinions about thin cylinder walls setting up a vibration causing the rings to hang, stick and then the rod snaps... That's possible I suppose, I can't say that I know because I'm not that familiar with this engine or V-twins in general. So I don't know that the thin cylinder walls hypothesis is NOT the case. What I do know is that in ANY engine if you over fill it with oil you risk frothing the oil, causing oil not to be pumped, damaging everything. In my case, someone who had possession of the bike previous to my ownership, overfilled the oil, it didn't kill it immediately, it did enough damage to turn it it to an accident waiting to happen.If you got it with 372, then did you do the 620 service? If so, the oil level is on you, not the previous owner.Umm when you pull 4 -5 quarts out of a bike.... And you put 3.2 in.... At that point yeah its on me. And I did it right.I have visions of this happening to me and all my friends on jap bikes pointing and saying "I told you so"it is just paranoia to be honest. The bike has never gave a reason for something to happen. My problem is I rely heavily on people like to help me out when something goes wrong as I’m not a mechanic in any shape or form. **** I’d probably put the wrong kind of water in the coolant. LolRide and enjoy brother, stay on top of the regular maintenance, do what the manual calls for no more no less. If you're curious check out the EBR Service channel on youtube. They do a very good job of walking you through various procedures.Always welcome, Findlay. If it blows we convert it to a second hand 1125 engine. Just done, they are cheap and last forever. Even the charging system, if it is an 08 😂
We gear it real short and you will hardly feel the differenAside from the factory test mules we don't know about, I figure about a half dozen total EBR's from what I have read about. It happens in jap bikes too. I've know guys that have blown up Kawis, A friend of min had a 'busa named "Bertha" she go so hungry she ate second gear. a friend of mine blew a BMW s1000rr inside of 20,000 miles.Yes, I know. I’ve seen it happen on Honda. If I get 20k out my EBR before it blows I’ll be happy. From what I’ve seen though they tend to go below 10kso I'm guessing here.. 10 failures total... lets say 1000 bikes produced per year.. 14 15 16 17.. 4 years 4000 bikes. that's .2% failure rate. That is really good actually. Those of us that had this failure are just unlucky. I've got an April 2014 RX, its been thrashed for its entire life, it only sees 8000rpm, as you go through to 11500rpm, even on the street, it does not have an easy life, I ride the nuts off of it, always have, its got close to 20'000K's on it......runs..I think its the oil squirter breaking off. Just unfortunate the damage usually includes the squirter. Would be nice to confirm the theory.

[gdisaac07]

I found the Facebook post that you talked about. The most interesting part of it is this:

Shane Myers: It's the cylinder wall thickness. It has the same OD as the 1125 and is bored 3mm taking away 1.5mm of wall thickness. I used to be the Race Engine Builder before we got shut down. 1125's had the same potential but not as much as the 1190. When you take something that is adequate and remove material it becomes inadequate. The liner is the only viable option. We did a set right before the shut down but never had a chance to test them. L.A. Sleeve did them and I'm sure they would do another set but I do not recall the price.

James Howlett: Shane Myers so is it just a matter of time for us all?

Shane Myers: Technically, no. But it all depends on how you ride it. Stress on the cylinder spigot is unacceptable at max RPM. A typical street rider most likely won't have an issue. If you are aggressive or track day/racer I would recommend the liners.

Bryan Aprilia: what max rpm do you recommend for the track, cheers

Shane Myers: Probably around 8000 but there is still a lot of stress at that point and eventually it will fail.

James Howlett: Shane Myers JEEZ I regularly push to 10k. Where do I get these liners. And is it expensive to have a mechanic install them

Bryan Aprilia: If someone gets this modification done with L A sleeve or gets the specs from when it was done before then we can send our cylinders to LA sleeve to get done For longevity.

Shane Myers: I don't recall the cost. I'm fairly certain that they would eliminate the problem. But like I said, they were never tested but they are the best option. You only send them the cylinders so if you can't do that yourself it could get pretty costly. I'd probably charge $1500 ($1000 if it was engine only) due to the fact that the bike will be apart for 3-4 weeks depending on their lead time.

Jeremy Pitman: Shane Myers when you say you were the race engine builder, what does that mean? What did you do to the engines/ecm and what was the typical outcome and cost?

Shane Myers: I was building engines for Cory West in AMA Superbike and when the guys in WSBK were having trouble with engine durability, I took over that program as well. We were over 200 HP but I couldn't comment on cost but it was expensive. A lot of 1 off parts.

For the record, I sent a message to LA Sleeve tonight and hopefully I'll get a chance to talk to them tomorrow about it.

[MakingPAIN]

Keep us posted, for the ones not on the Facebook

[EBRRider]

Keep us posted, for the ones not on the Facebook

That why I posted you you and Cooter to read up.

[MakingPAIN]

Mucho gracias amigo.

[Cooter]

Thanks so much for that It's VERY interesting.... He's got a LOT of hypothesis going on and there aren't enough stock failures to have much info at all. Most common mistake is filling the oil with the bike on a paddock stand. 4-5 quarts??

It's hard to read but theres quite a few other hypothetical assumptions in the rest of the text as well. I'll assume by "cylinder spigot" he means squirter? And Ya, that evidence would be destroyed with a rod swinging around for sure, so another guess

Maybe save a bike from a .2% failure rate is a $1500 job? I'll pass. They're still $10,000 under msrp. Brand new. I will keep whipping my pretty baby, stay up on maintenance and not worry about it. Mines an early bike, maybe I'm next?

I will watch this closely for info. I feel I was a bit hard on the new guy:( He seems nice, but understandably upset. His first post 'I beat this thing until it broke, and I blame the bike, and my other bikes are better' would rub me wrong regardless of the brand he was talking about. I would be pissed too but... responsibility much? FWIW, I wouldn't jump into the middle of the fan base, talking smack about them and asking for help at the same time.

[gdisaac07]

Thanks so much for that It's VERY interesting.... He's got a LOT of hypothesis going on and there aren't enough stock failures to have much info at all. Most common mistake is filling the oil with the bike on a paddock stand. 4-5 quarts??

It's hard to read but theres quite a few other hypothetical assumptions in the rest of the text as well. I'll assume by "cylinder spigot" he means squirter? And Ya, that evidence would be destroyed with a rod swinging around for sure, so another guess

Maybe save a bike from a .2% failure rate is a $1500 job? I'll pass. They're still $10,000 under msrp. Brand new. I will keep whipping my pretty baby, stay up on maintenance and not worry about it. Mines an early bike, maybe I'm next?

I will watch this closely for info. I feel I was a bit hard on the new guy:( He seems nice, but understandably upset. His first post 'I beat this thing until it broke, and I blame the bike, and my other bikes are better' would rub me wrong regardless of the brand he was talking about. I would be pissed too but... responsibility much? FWIW, I wouldn't jump into the middle of the fan base, talking smack about them and asking for help at the same time.

The text is hard to read, which is why I found the FB post to read it from there to begin with. But Shane is very clear - the cylinder liner is the problem.

The cylinder spigot is the part of the cylinder liner that inserts into the lower end of the engine. It's the weakest part of the cylinder liner.

The oil squirter was brought up by someone else in a different comment.

Tristan Jong-Un: I think its the oil squirter breaking off. Just unfortunate the damage usually includes the squirter. Would be nice to confirm the theory.

As far as the calculated rate of failures - that's wrong. It's ~13/1000 made, which is 1.3%. And those are only the blow ups we know of.

For me, this is a next winter project. Because why not?

Also, he deserved what he got. But he tried hard after he was brought down a peg!

[gdisaac07]

For the record, I think a big part of this is the OP's oil usage. He pulled out too much oil at the first oil change, meaning damage was done by the person who owned the bike before him. I think that's the root cause of the blowup.

Erik Mallory: In my case I have a theory that is in no way accurate. First let me give you the back story: I bought my 2016 1190sx with 372 miles on Feb 4 2018. On March 2 on my way home from work the front rod punted through the case. I was in second gear at 70 mph.. probably about 8000 RPM. About a week later I was cleaning the garage and dumping the oil from my catch pan to a 1.6 gallon container. The only oil in that catch pan was from the 620 mile service and some fork oil from my zx10r. I filled that jug. I estimate no less than 4.5 quarts and as much as 5 came out of my 1190sx. After having some time to reflect and research. I was offered a lot of opinions about thin cylinder walls setting up a vibration causing the rings to hang, stick and then the rod snaps... That's possible I suppose, I can't say that I know because I'm not that familiar with this engine or V-twins in general. So I don't know that the thin cylinder walls hypothesis is NOT the case. What I do know is that in ANY engine if you over fill it with oil you risk frothing the oil, causing oil not to be pumped, damaging everything. In my case, someone who had possession of the bike previous to my ownership, overfilled the oil, it didn't kill it immediately, it did enough damage to turn it it to an accident waiting to happen.

It also means we have a relatively small safety tolerance to our engines, because of what Shane said.

[Cooter]

My calculation guesstimate was based on stock engines. IMHO all bets are off if you're racing. Because, note he was riding that sub 1000mile bike "hard"... "missing shifts"... "redline"... with way too heavy an oil for the ambient temps he was at. Tiny, new tolerances plus cold heavy oil=known V-twin probs:(

I totally agree the EBR's "Pure, real, race engine"* is cut to tight tolerances to get that much power/L, as are all the others, and heck there was no real longevity testing in this exact engine. They pushed the awesome 1125 to higher levels of everything. Maybe there is some resonant vibration, wrong materials, bad design, whatever? No ones found perfection yet:)

I'm not arguing as a brand loyal Bueller. I really don't think the sky is falling just yet, but my eyes are open If you've got the wherewithal to want to get the cylinders lined, I don't see an issue with that either




*Erik Buell

[gdisaac07]

My calculation guesstimate was based on stock engines. IMHO all bets are off if you're racing. Because, note he was riding that sub 1000mile bike "hard"... "missing shifts"... "redline"... with way too heavy an oil for the ambient temps he was at. Tiny, new tolerances plus cold heavy oil=known V-twin probs:(

I totally agree the EBR's "Pure, real, race engine"* is cut to tight tolerances to get that much power/L, as are all the others, and heck there was no real longevity testing in this exact engine. They pushed the awesome 1125 to higher levels of everything. Maybe there is some resonant vibration, wrong materials, bad design, whatever? No ones found perfection yet:)

I'm not arguing as a brand loyal Bueller. I really don't think the sky is falling just yet, but my eyes are open If you've got the wherewithal to want to get the cylinders lined, I don't see an issue with that either




*Erik Buell

You're absolutely right that his riding behavior and maintenance choices had a significant impact on the longevity of his motor. However, as someone who plans to do quite a few track days this year, this entire discussion does make me a bit nervous. So anything I can do to make sure I'm not going to go is welcome to me.