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Thread: Is There Any Hope for a Revived EBR?

  1. #91
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    Vertical down sensor? Hmm, it could have an app for your phone to alert you anytime it goes down. Picture, your in the bar talking up some chick and the VD alert goes off. LOL

  2. #92
    EBRforum Expert Scott's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cooter View Post
    So whats the difference with EBR making super low production real, legally recognized bikes... and OCC type chopper builders making 10X the amount of slapped together 'special constructions' like you or I could make in our garage and title the same way? It's really easy to get a MFG license.

    Could EBR forgo the expense and red tape of the feds and the EPA by doing the same thing? Their profit margin would increase substantially and could sell bikes with their reputation (as the chopper people do). Feasable?

    The biggest problem I see is the 1190 was slightly outdated in 2014, and terribly so now in 2017 as fast as this market moves. EBR would need a HUGE influx of cash just to build the electronics suite that performance buyers expect today. HP only gets you so far these days....
    I believe they can up to a point and if they grow beyond that, they can justify the cost.

    The big problem I see is they can't survive selling 100 1190RX's per year at $10,000 per bike.

    At low volumes like that, they're going to have to charge something like $30,000 per bike. And that price isn't crazy for an extremely low volume, unique bike (look at bikes like Motus or Confederate). The problem is, it will be very tough to charge $30,000 for bike that was selling for $10,000.

    But I think there is a route they can take. There were rumors prior to shutdown of a forced induction bike (either turbo or supercharger), and I think that could be an ideal solution to their problem.

    The 1190RS could handle with the best bikes out there, but it couldn't compete on power. A forced induction variation could compete on power and be truly unique and justify a $30,000 asking price. The wouldn't be able to race, of course, but at this point, they don't have the resources to race, so I think they should focus on beating the Superbike competition by breaking the rules those bikes have to stick to to continue to race.

    And don't just stop at forced induction, increase displacement, perform other engine tweaks not allowed by WSBK rules, and use carbon fiber to keep weight down (I don't believe WSBK rules allow carbon fiber fairings for example).

    If EBR can use the WSBK rules against the bikes they'll be competing with in the magazine shoot-outs, they can gain an advantage. And the magazines don't care how they get there as long as the package performs.

    Even against something like the H2R, they won't be able to compete on power, but put them on the track together and the supercharged EBR will have the the weight and handling advantage and could likely beat the H2R around a tight track.

    A bike like that could take advantage of existing parts and tooling while also having a whole new unique personality that would be like nothing else out there and could, if done right, outperform the competition.

    At least that's the way I'd go until they can build back up to doing more mainstream bikes.
    Last edited by Scott; 09-15-2017 at 12:41 PM.

  3. #93
    EBRforum Expert Cooter's Avatar
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    I think you touched on the answer. Erik=Racing, and couldn't compete unless it was a 'production' bike.

  4. #94
    EBRforum Expert Scott's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cooter View Post
    I think you touched on the answer. Erik=Racing, and couldn't compete unless it was a 'production' bike.
    I think they've gone through a number of stages. Back when they were Buell, the bikes were SO different and SO quirky, they needed to put them on the race-track to demonstrate that those wonky designs actually worked.

    When they became EBR, they took a much more standard path - and with enough time and money, I think it would have worked.

    At this point, I don't think they can go that route. To be what EBR was trying to be, they'd need a minimum $50 million investment to slowly build to the point they can compete against the best in the world using the same homologation rules and technical restrictions as everyone else.

    They've already proven the 1190RS can at least stay on the track with the other bikes, but getting that last little bit to actually win in that group would likely require 5 years of intense effort and investment.

    So I say regroup to something more like a Buell mindset of creating something truly different - and WSBK racing rules have given them a gift they need to take advantage of. All "superbikes" currently look and perform very similarly with very similar constructions. You can have a 1200 cc liquid-cooled, naturally aspirated twin, or you can have a 1000 cc liquid-cooled four - but nothing else exists (except for outliers like the H2R) because the race rules don't allow it.

    Ducati has started to take advantage of that with their 1300, but I think EBR could go much farther.

    Just like they showed the potential of a Harley lump when there were no restrictions, they could show the potential of a V-Twin with no restrictions. a 1350 cc super-charged V-twin, for example could be packaged in the current 1190RS frame without stretching things or making the bike much heavier, and that engine could be to the current superbike engines what the Buell engine was to the Sportsers.

    Eventually, they'd get back to racing and create bikes that fit those restrictions, but I think those restrictions should be put on the shelf until they can shake things up and create a bike with much more appeal to enthusiasts who want a beast rather than something that's part of the pack.

    I think a bike that could be touted as the fastest bike in the world would do more to put them on the map and get them on their feet than being mid-field in a racing crowd (as they've already done). And that bike could provide the sales and resources they need to get back into racing 5 years from now.
    Last edited by Scott; 09-16-2017 at 08:43 PM.

  5. #95
    EBRforum Expert Cooter's Avatar
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    I wholeheartedly agree. It's what made Lamborghini
    More kids have the H2R on their wall than any rider besides Rossi or Marquez.

  6. #96
    EBRforum Junkie MakingPAIN's Avatar
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    I agree also. Now think, a bike like you said for people like us that just want something beast-like to scare us when we least expect it. And the parallel twin with smaller displacement for the newer riders or just a rider. Hit both markets, look at the hideous fz07 people love it. Brakes suck, forks suck. Motor kinda sucks. Triple tree sucks. And people love it because it's different and can be ridin by anyone with a heart beat.

  7. #97
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    Scott,
    Your described bike to me sounds like it could have been done a decade ago. Merged the XBRR and the turbo projects back in the Buell days. Hell merge in the M8 4 valve heads and buy the supercharger from Kawasaki. Tying into the XBRR primary drive. Ah to dream. Won't happen, but it would be different and interesting. Unlike the boring results from other manufacturers after a decade of stagnation.

    If they'd had the kind of money you suggest available when starting EBR it would have been better spent on the parallel twin instead of the helicon. Right now it would have placed them in a strong market position against all the bikes sitting in the price range once occupied by the XB's.

  8. #98
    EBRforum Expert Scott's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MakingPAIN View Post
    I agree also. Now think, a bike like you said for people like us that just want something beast-like to scare us when we least expect it. And the parallel twin with smaller displacement for the newer riders or just a rider. Hit both markets, look at the hideous fz07 people love it. Brakes suck, forks suck. Motor kinda sucks. Triple tree sucks. And people love it because it's different and can be ridin by anyone with a heart beat.
    Quote Originally Posted by oddball View Post
    it would have been better spent on the parallel twin instead of the helicon.
    I'm a huge fan of simple, lightweight parallel-twins like the Ninja 650 and BMW F 800 GT and the new KTM 790 has me drooling, and that's why it felt like a kick in the gut when I heard EBR had something like that in the works. My personal, selfish hope is to one day be able to buy a bike like that from them.

    But while I would personally prefer that bike to the bike I described above, I think the bike I described above is how they get there. They need something like what I described to make a name for themselves and become a viable company and once they're a viable company, they can make lower priced, higher volume, less crazy bikes.

    But I believe step-one has to be a high-dollar, low-volume bike that will offer something unique enough to excite people and tempt a small number of people to pay top-dollar.
    Last edited by Scott; 09-16-2017 at 09:04 PM.

  9. #99
    EBRforum Expert Scott's Avatar
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    And I believe racing rules allow 750 cc twins to go up against 600 cc fours and 700 cc triples, so a 750 twin out there shaking things up in that class would be cool.

  10. #100
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    On a possibly related note, LAP posted this to Facebook this week:

    Name:  IMG_0244.JPG
Views: 572
Size:  41.4 KB

    I'd think if they were going to close up EBR completely in the near future, they'd just keep cutting prices until everything was gone.

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